Reapers Vs Star Trek

[gigabytelord]

This is a simple Vs I was wondering about. I looked around for a bit and have yet to find a genuine Trek vs Reaper thread so I figured in my boredom I'd make one.

This the setup.

250,000BC: Approximately five cycles ago the Reapers are just cleaning up the latest round of civilizations to emerge. However unlike in the mass effect universe one race, we're going to call them 'Race X', actually managed to survive. After the Reapers leave they re-emerge and start to rebuild, albeit slowly. One of the first steps they take is to correct the problem that caused the reapers to attack in the first place. They systematically move from system to system destroying or disabling everything that was build by the reapers, that they can find, in an effort to break the cycle.

After several thousand years their civilization once again reaches a zenith and then slowly, gracefully, ebbs with time. During this period the race seeds the galaxy with beings who will evolve in the their image.

2375 AD (Approx.) A Kazon Warship happens upon a desolate airless rock orbiting a fairly unremarkable star. On sensors they detect a strange signal coming from just below the surface. On closer investigation they discover a massive warship of completely unknown design. What little technical knowledge they do have tells them it's been there for a fuck off long time.
The Kazon commander sends in a 'team' (using that term loosely) to investigate the shiny thing. One of them fools around and activates a still operational beacon. Within hours several of the individuals are having hallucinations and waking dreams. A short time later one them manages to find his way to the barely functioning core and activates some sort of FTL capable transponder which communicates with... something... out there...

For the purposes that should be obvious, no god like powers get involved as Q his fellow god like beings op to stay out of what ever happens.

Step one: Infiltration

Step two: Indoctrination

Step three: Low level harvesting

Step four: Invasion

-Strike major power centers knocking out military bases, and removing or indoctrinating local forces.

-Divide and conquer, cut communications, and establish multiple bases of operations using existing sapient biomass to supplement combat forces.

-Harvest and salvation through destruction.

Are you on the side of salvation? Then how do you proceed?

Are you on the side of freedom? Then how do you proceed?

[FaxModem1]

The invasion will mostly be limited to the Delta quadrant, as the mass effect relays are what fling reapers and everyone else around the galaxy. Without that, the Reapers will be able to FTL around the Delta Quadrant no problem, but will find the Romulans, the Ferengi, Klingons, Federation, etc. out of grasp.

Considering they're in Kazon space, the Kazon become even more splintered and divided with a pro-reaper side and everybody else.

Maybe they find a cure to the Vidians phage, and indoctrinate them as well. Everyone else is too far away for the Reapers to get to.

[gigabytelord]

The invasion will mostly be limited to the Delta quadrant, as the mass effect relays are what fling reapers and everyone else around the galaxy. Without that, the Reapers will be able to FTL around the Delta Quadrant no problem, but will find the Romulans, the Ferengi, Klingons, Federation, etc. out of grasp.

Considering they're in Kazon space, the Kazon become even more splintered and divided with a pro-reaper side and everybody else.

Maybe they find a cure to the Vidians phage, and indoctrinate them as well. Everyone else is too far away for the Reapers to get to.

Last I checked Reaper non-relay ftl speeds where right around the 30 light year per day area, that's 10,950 lights in a year, 109,000 light years in a decade, and when your talking about a machine race that's just got back from hanging out in the void between galaxies for the last 250,000 years. A decade ain't much...

[Borgholio]

If they stay in the Delta Quadrant for any real length of time, they would have to deal with the Borg somehow. Now love them or hate them, the Borg civilization IS huge and their ships are quite powerful...how would the Reapers deal with them?

[gigabytelord]

If they stay in the Delta Quadrant for any real length of time, they would have to deal with the Borg somehow. Now love them or hate them, the Borg civilization IS huge and their ships are quite powerful...how would the Reapers deal with them?

Depends on how well the infiltration and indoctrination phases go I suppose. We know the Reapers prefer to use the slow insidious method, which can take years or even decades. I wonder how the Borg would react to their own tricks being used against them?

[PKRudeBoy]

They might even see each other as natural allies. Two technologically advanced machine races that indoctrinate and assimilate organic races to reproduce? Hell, maybe the Borg are the Reapers forerunners, and Mass Effect takes place many cycles in the future with a reborn Humanity.

[gigabytelord]

They might even see each other as natural allies. Two technologically advanced machine races that indoctrinate and assimilate organic races to reproduce? Hell, maybe the Borg are the Reapers forerunners, and Mass Effect takes place many cycles in the future with a reborn Humanity.

Are the Borg at least 130 million years old?

In the ME codex it states that the Reapers are known to be at least a billion years old.

[StarSword]

If they stay in the Delta Quadrant for any real length of time, they would have to deal with the Borg somehow. Now love them or hate them, the Borg civilization IS huge and their ships are quite powerful...how would the Reapers deal with them?

I'm inclined to think any stand-up fight between a Reaper and a ship of the Federation's tech level or higher is going to result in a mutual kill. Reason being, kinetic barriers do jack-all against energy weapons, but we generally interpret ST shields as being just as bad against kinetic weapons. So both sides get blown away in the opening volley.

However, since the Reapers are actually smart, independent thinkers instead of being a civilization-level case of groupthink, I envision the Reapers doing a lot of ramming. During the Battle of the Citadel at the end of ME1, Sovereign bulled right through a turian cruiser without even slowing down or taking any damage, and according to the codex it takes something like four Citadel dreadnoughts concentrating their fire to be sure of a kill against a Sovereign-class Reaper.

In ground combat, the Reapers tear the Borg, or anyone else in ST for that matter, to pieces. The Borg Collective's idea of surface tactics is to advance slowly towards the enemy as a skirmish line of mentally retarded zombies, whereas most of the more dangerous husk variants fight at range and use combined-arms tactics. They're also not shy about using orbital bombardment when it suits them.

[Mr Bean]

In ground combat, the Reapers tear the Borg, or anyone else in ST for that matter, to pieces. The Borg Collective's idea of surface tactics is to advance slowly towards the enemy as a skirmish line of mentally retarded zombies, whereas most of the more dangerous husk variants fight at range and use combined-arms tactics. They're also not shy about using orbital bombardment when it suits them.

Don't forget reaper "air" support consists of landing the 2000 meter tall space ships and slowly walking using beam weapons at point blank range while various reaper suicide soldiers spread panic and fear as they blow up anything living and organic.

[StarSword]

In ground combat, the Reapers tear the Borg, or anyone else in ST for that matter, to pieces. The Borg Collective's idea of surface tactics is to advance slowly towards the enemy as a skirmish line of mentally retarded zombies, whereas most of the more dangerous husk variants fight at range and use combined-arms tactics. They're also not shy about using orbital bombardment when it suits them.

Don't forget reaper "air" support consists of landing the 2000 meter tall space ships and slowly walking using beam weapons at point blank range while various reaper suicide soldiers spread panic and fear as they blow up anything living and organic.

Yeah, I forgot about that one. And even when they don't have 2 km capships and 150 meter destroyers wandering around the battlefield blasting things with anticapital guns, they generally use close air support in the form of Harvesters. Frankly the Reapers are more generally competent in ground combat than probably anyone else in mainstream SF.

[bilateralrope]

However, since the Reapers are actually smart, independent thinkers instead of being a civilization-level case of groupthink, I envision the Reapers doing a lot of ramming.

That or they just avoid fighting directly and rely on indoctrinated minions in Trek ships to do the fighting for them.

Question is, would the Reapers go straight to wiping out all life ?
ME3 extended edition and the Leviathan DLC left me thinking that the Reapers wiping out all life wasn't their solution to the organics vs synthetics problem. Instead each cycle was the Reapers trying to solve the problem, the wiping out the galaxy to reset the galaxy once they deemed that attempt a failure so they could try something else next time round.

It would quickly become obvious to the Reapers that the Trek galaxy is not a galaxy where the technology developed the way the Reapers expected it to after they learn how common energy weapons are. So that might make them decide to spend some time figuring out exactly what is going on. Maybe they even see the Borg as a solution to organics vs synthetics problem.

Even if they go for extermination, we are talking about beings who plan for the long term. They are going to want to know what's going on, and probably equip themselves with Trek technology, before they start their extermination campaign.

[PREDATOR490]

If you go with the Catalyst solution for Mass Effect being Synthesis then the Reapers should see the Borg as being essentially the same thing.
Does that mean the Reapers are going to ally with the Borg - Hell no.

The Reapers do not ally with anyone, they corrupt or consume them to fit their purpose which ultimately will end up with the Borg being turned into their bitch much like the Geth or the Borg assimilating the Reapers.
At best you might have the Reapers trying to play nice with the Borg with promises of cooperation but... the Borg are notoriously single-minded about how they like to co-operate. Unless the Reapers can come up with something that will prevent the Borg from assimilating them like Voyager did then any alliance is doomed to fail.

The best thing the Reapers can do with the Borg is try to indoctrinate them which is what they did with the Geth however - that indoctrination got fragmented group of the Geth joining the Reapers. The Reapers have not been shown to be able to indoctrinate an entire civilization and it can be resisted so I do not see the Reapers getting very far in trying to indoctrinate the entire Borg Collective unless they come up with abilities that have not been seen before.
Once the Reapers start trying, the Borg should be more than capable of identifying that something is going wrong and in theory the Queen would jump into action much like she did in Unimatrix Zero. Result: The Queen starts nuking infected vessels and / or sends ships to blow the Reapers away.

As for the Borg assimilating the Reapers - In theory it should be possible but I would expect the Borg to be more interested in assimilating Reaper technology rather than the intelligence. The Borg are obviously going to be interested in indoctrination and Biotics but what else do the Reapers actually have to offer the Borg beyond a few specific technologies ?

Mass Effect weapons are focused on kinetic kill attacks with Energy weapons being a side line. The Reapers seem to swing heavily towards the Energy side of the spectrum which is bad in the case when your fighting in Star Trek. Star Trek is used to fighting against energy weapons and the Borg are potentially the worst enemies to use energy based attacks against so you have a hilarious setup here.

I would second the idea that a fight between a Reaper and a Borg cube is going to end in either a mutual kill with a favor towards the Borg winning the fight through bulk.
Same goes for most Reaper vs. Space engagements unless the Reapers are selective in their targets.

On the ground - Yeah, this is the one area where the Reapers are going to effectively fuck everyone in the Star Trek universe since they have a competent ability to fight on the ground with toys to match.
The only thing that should prevent the Reapers from totally steam rolling every ground encounter would be the inability to hold the space superiority.

The Borg can off-screen scoop up entire cities and orbital bombardments are extremely uncommon but not unheard of in Star Trek. Which ultimately makes any Reaper ground invasion a losing proposition if Star Trek powers can wipe them out from space.

Ultimately: I expect the Reapers will need to be patient and buff up their technology before they become a threat to the galaxy because they are poorly equipped to go on the offensive. Given their location in the galaxy, going offensive is likely to attract the Borg which will at best cause the Reapers to take heavy casualties. At worst the Borg assimilate them and the Reapers end in a dramatic but pointless space battle... much like Mass Effect 3.

[Simon_Jester]

In ground combat, the Reapers tear the Borg, or anyone else in ST for that matter, to pieces. The Borg Collective's idea of surface tactics is to advance slowly towards the enemy as a skirmish line of mentally retarded zombies, whereas most of the more dangerous husk variants fight at range and use combined-arms tactics. They're also not shy about using orbital bombardment when it suits them.

Don't forget reaper "air" support consists of landing the 2000 meter tall space ships and slowly walking using beam weapons at point blank range while various reaper suicide soldiers spread panic and fear as they blow up anything living and organic.

Yeah, I forgot about that one. And even when they don't have 2 km capships and 150 meter destroyers wandering around the battlefield blasting things with anticapital guns, they generally use close air support in the form of Harvesters. Frankly the Reapers are more generally competent in ground combat than probably anyone else in mainstream SF.

They have very big guns, but I can think of quite a few settings that make effective use of air support weapons and so on. When you say 'competent' do you mean 'dangerous' or do you mean 'competent?'

[StarSword]

They have very big guns, but I can think of quite a few settings that make effective use of air support weapons and so on. When you say 'competent' do you mean 'dangerous' or do you mean 'competent?'

Actually, I think painted with too broad a brush when I said "mainstream". I was thinking of the almost-complete lack of anything we would recognize as an effective surface military in TV sci-fi (mainly due to TV budgets precluding the use of armor and artillery support and the like). It's almost all light infantry, and outside of some instances in Stargate (for example, SG-1: "Heroes", which has Jaffa operating with close air support from gliders and al'kesh in a major ground battle against several SG teams) there's next to no combined arms.

[gigabytelord]

Here's a kind of question that's usually not asked in a versus thread.

I have to wonder how, on a personal level, would the various trek powers react to something like the Reapers? Have they ever dealt with something even remotely like them?

I mean on a visceral level witnessing the destruction of an entire civilization would have to have some sort of effect on you. This is a race whose stated goal is your salvation through your own destruction... Once the main invasion begins they will gladly harvest entire planetary populations in an effort to 'save' your civilization by turning you and everyone you've ever known into a gestalt intelligence that's been brain washed into being a true believer that would make westboro look like a few kids play acting in Sunday school.

Secondary note: As far as numbers are concerned, there are no exact numbers for the size of the Reaper fleet/s. What we do know, that can be gleaned from the games is that they were able to launch attacks on nearly every major milky way power within the course of apparent weeks.
Unfortunately we also don't have exact numbers on the fleet strengths on the various powers either for comparison.

Tertiary note: I would like to clarify for those who aren't familiar with the trek timeline. 2375 AD is, according to memory alpha, the same year the dominion war ended. I did not realize this at first when I selected that date but I can't change it now.

NINJA EDIT: They were also able to completely overwhelm and destroy the Batarian Hierarchy.

[StarSword]

I have to wonder how, on a personal level, would the various trek powers react to something like the Reapers? Have they ever dealt with something even remotely like them?

Funny thing, the closest Trek has to the Reapers is the Borg.

Secondary note: As far as numbers are concerned, there are no exact numbers for the size of the Reaper fleet/s. What we do know, that can be gleaned from the games is that they were able to launch attacks on nearly every major milky way power within the course of apparent weeks.
Unfortunately we also don't have exact numbers on the fleet strengths on the various powers either for comparison.

We do have some data. The Treaty of Farixen limits the number of dreadnoughts Citadel races can build, although depending on the events of ME1 ... Spoiler

Specifically, whether or not you saved or sacrificed the Council.

... the turians may have decided they should no longer be bound by it. Humans like to get around the Treaty of Farixen, which limits them to six Everest-class DNs, by building carriers (which is almost certainly a nod to the Washington Naval Treaty), and ME3's codex states that the geth have 21 DNs IIRC (since they're not signatories).

[Ted C]

Depends on how well the infiltration and indoctrination phases go I suppose. We know the Reapers prefer to use the slow insidious method, which can take years or even decades. I wonder how the Borg would react to their own tricks being used against them?

I think that's an inaccurate description. The Reapers prefer to crush the major galactic civilizations in massive attacks against their homeworlds when they arrive, then spend a couple of centuries mopping up the rest. Indoctrination is just one tool in their toolbox.

[Ted C]

I'm kind of conflicted on this. The Reapers are optimized for conquering a galaxy that they have been manipulating for eons. The Trek galaxy is definitely not on their normal agenda.

In a galaxy that specializes in energy beams for combat, their kinetic barriers are next to useless. On the other hand, their own KE weapons will be exceptionally effective against shields designed primarily to deflect energy. Space combat could be ugly for both sides, depending on how effective Reaper armor is against phasers and disruptors. The Reapers appear to number in the thousands, and their attack on Earth in ME3 showed multiple Reapers hitting a single major city, so there are presumably hundreds involved in just that one attack.

The Reapers apparently also come up with all kinds of new husk variants as a war progresses. No telling what they would come up with as they converted the myriad Trek races into husks.

I'm curious how difficult it would be for them to construct new mass relays to speed up their movements around the galaxy. Shepard's destruction of the Alpha Relay set back their invasion by months, since they had to get to another mass relay by their normal FTL.

[lord Martiya]

I'd have a few observations about the weapons.
First, Trek's energy weapons (or at least phasers and disruptors) appear to be some form of particle beam and have a mass. Once the shield is dropped they do most of their damage by disintegrating matter, whatever the mechanism is, but until them the Reapers' shields should be able to deflect them. Photon torpedoes, on the other hand, should be able to do some damage.
Second, Trek energy weapons are more effective on organic matter than on metal. If a Reaper's armour is pierced, the effects would be... Interesting.
Third: according to the Codex, the Reapers' weapons aren't energy beams but a rather peculiar form of kinetic weapons firing molten metal (adding some heat to the kinetic damage). The heat would be negligible against Trek shields, but the KE would be devastating.

On the Borg vs Reaper starship fight... It would be interesting: both have large firepower, and both shields are largely or completely ineffective against one or more of the enemy weapons (the Borg have lasers, that ME shields can't stop). But I think that if it stays into warship battles the Borg would ultimately win by adapting and fielding uparmoured cubes (we have seen them in VOY once) with large arsenals of laser weapons (they could, and they have used lasers on their ships, even if just as cutters), unless the Reapers can outsmart them. On ground combat, on the other hand, the Reapers' husks would win so easily we can't really call it a fight.

[Imperial528]

It's actually stated in the Codex and the game dialogue itself that particle beams are far more effective against barriers than standard kinetic weapons are. Spoiler

When the Collector Cruiser destroys the original Normandy, it is able to use its particle beam to easily damage the ship through its barriers.

Given that precedent, I'd expect Trek weapons to actually do extremely nasty damage to Reapers, especially to the Reaper Destroyers, as the weak spot opened during firing would be an easy target for phasers. Additionally, Sovereign-class Reapers are described as rather ponderous, whereas Trek ships are extremely maneuverable for their size, so I imagine avoiding the primary weapons of any Reaper capitals would be easily done except in knife-fighting ranges.

Also, unlike ME ships, Trek ships do not need to discharge drive core static, so if they can think to do so, tactical use of FTL will be much more feasible against the Reapers, whereas it would be impractical for a ship with a mass effect drive to do so.

[StarSword]

Also, unlike ME ships, Trek ships do not need to discharge drive core static, so if they can think to do so, tactical use of FTL will be much more feasible against the Reapers, whereas it would be impractical for a ship with a mass effect drive to do so.

Actually, Reapers apparently don't need to discharge drive core static according to the ME3 codex (although note that the codex is written from an in-universe perspective and is an unreliable expositor). And on a strategic scale, they have the advantage in FTL speeds: They're believed capable of 30 LY per day, which calculates out to a full order of magnitude faster than warp 9 by the TNG TM warp scale.

[Imperial528]

Yeah, I know. It's another reason why tactical FTL is useless against the reapers in ME, since they can respond at will without having to discharge. Trek will have no such problems.

Generally, I differentiate between ships in Mass Effect by saying ME ships for non-reapers, and specifying when I am talking about reaper technology.

[Simon_Jester]

30 LY/day is within shouting distance of the 'sprint' capacity of some of the more advanced starships of the VOY/DS9 era... but their sustained cruising speeds are much, much lower than that, as demonstrated by the entire plot of Voyager.

[StarSword]

30 LY/day is within shouting distance of the 'sprint' capacity of some of the more advanced starships of the VOY/DS9 era... but their sustained cruising speeds are much, much lower than that, as demonstrated by the entire plot of Voyager.

A quick check of a table on Memory Alpha gives warp 9.975 as 8 LY/day. Still not nearly enough to catch a Reaper, or even the Normandy.

[Batman]

That very same table also gives Warp 9.9 as 21,473 c, or 58.8 ly/day (not to mention the entry for Warp 8.4 in 'TOS:That Which Survives'). Trek Warp factor speed numbers are inconsistent. Who knew