Who can take TA

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2002-08-25 08:27pm

Just curious, who can take TA. You can choose any singular civilization just keep it under the Culture as I already know culture rapes them. Both universes are at their heighth and are connected by an infinite number of indestructable wormholes. The TA forces are allied against the new intruder for purposes of this debate. Both universes know about each other and are given maps of each others terratory. No planet destroying for the first week. That is all. Have fun.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-08-26 01:21am

If we presume that TA construction speeds are accurate from in game to real time, and that the wormholes are close enough to the TA worlds for them to reach, then this will be a tough fight for any of the low level sci-fi universes. When you say infinite number of wormholes, don't you really mean one for every potential conflict area? If the number was truly infinite, then you wouldn't be able to move eithout your body trying to go down an infinite number of wormholes simultaneously, with fatal and vey messy results.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-08-26 01:29am

It depends heavily on if you accept fan fiction as canon or not. No one has ever been able to provide a link to anything saying it is so to me at least despite the TA website still being up. And the fan fiction containing most of the uber TA ships has been lost.

Plus, I can just as easily write something that contradicts anything I don’t like and have it hold just as much weight..

As a result, I personally would only accept the manual and the information provided online by the games creators as canon. Using that, practically no one can beat them on the ground, but space travel seems to be non-existent by the end of the TA civil war.

While some of there artillery should be able to reach orbit, after all that’s been done on earth already with a modified 16/50, any race with around Star Wars level ship tech would wipe the floor with them.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2002-08-26 06:03am

Dark Hellion wrote:Just curious, who can take TA. You can choose any singular civilization just keep it under the Culture as I already know culture rapes them. Both universes are at their heighth and are connected by an infinite number of indestructable wormholes. The TA forces are allied against the new intruder for purposes of this debate. Both universes know about each other and are given maps of each others terratory. No planet destroying for the first week. That is all. Have fun.

The 4th Empire might be able to do so. They have an incredible firepower and shields which block access from other dimensions too !

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2002-08-26 03:35pm

Well, only certain Fan fics are canon accoding to Cavedog canon policy. Many were lost though. I can give a description of their power however. The lowly Ak can survive 8 megatons of firepower and has 500 kiloton lasers capable of firing once every 1.5 seconds. The mighty krogoth can survive around 1 gigaton and is armed with railguns that fire slugs the size of an M1 tank.(this is all conservative based on a 100 megaton nuke, which it is probably much greater) The in-game build times are correct.
The space forces have less about them but I do know the stats of the Core Superdreadnought. Now the core only had (well have for the point of this debate) a couple thousand superdreadnoughts but each is 30,000 kilometers long armoured in multiple Kilometer thick neutronium. It is powered by a triple singularity power generator. It can travel on any of dozens of dimensions and has multi-dimensional shields. The thing is armed with 4, 125 km bore D-cannons thousands of 25 km bore D-cannons and millions of Vulcan plasma cannons and annihilator laser cannons. A small percent of a its firepower can vaporize a planet. It is also armed with Axiom missles. Long ranged missles that can vaporize half a planet with one shot.
I am seriously wondering if anyone can take TA as I have failed to see any pre-culture civilization do it in any forum.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2002-08-26 03:52pm

Dark Hellion wrote:Well, only certain Fan fics are canon accoding to Cavedog canon policy. Many were lost though. I can give a description of their power however. The lowly Ak can survive 8 megatons of firepower and has 500 kiloton lasers capable of firing once every 1.5 seconds. The mighty krogoth can survive around 1 gigaton and is armed with railguns that fire slugs the size of an M1 tank.(this is all conservative based on a 100 megaton nuke, which it is probably much greater) The in-game build times are correct.
The space forces have less about them but I do know the stats of the Core Superdreadnought. Now the core only had (well have for the point of this debate) a couple thousand superdreadnoughts but each is 30,000 kilometers long armoured in multiple Kilometer thick neutronium. It is powered by a triple singularity power generator. It can travel on any of dozens of dimensions and has multi-dimensional shields. The thing is armed with 4, 125 km bore D-cannons thousands of 25 km bore D-cannons and millions of Vulcan plasma cannons and annihilator laser cannons. A small percent of a its firepower can vaporize a planet. It is also armed with Axiom missles. Long ranged missles that can vaporize half a planet with one shot.
I am seriously wondering if anyone can take TA as I have failed to see any pre-culture civilization do it in any forum.

I still think the 4th Empire could do it... it's no sure thing, but it's possible.

their most powerful graviton warhead has a total destruction horizon radius of 400000 km ! Let's see how well Core ships do within the event horizon of a short lived black hole !

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2002-08-26 04:35pm

The 4th E. is the only candidate I can think of that can even destroy a core ship. I think the lose the war of attrition as it only takes about 1 month to make a superdreadnought and superdreadnoughts can manufacture there own small fleets of ships with material from destroyed planets and moons. It would be a bloody mess but I think TA would just outproduce the 4th E. to extinction.

Oh.... Also gravatic warheads could only peel the outer armor off as underneath is a gravaty null field that supports a hull with more gravity than a whole system and surrounds the triple singularity reactor. This field allows a SD to carry billions of smaller craft inside without crushing them.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2002-08-26 05:02pm

Dark Hellion wrote:The 4th E. is the only candidate I can think of that can even destroy a core ship. I think the lose the war of attrition as it only takes about 1 month to make a superdreadnought and superdreadnoughts can manufacture there own small fleets of ships with material from destroyed planets and moons. It would be a bloody mess but I think TA would just outproduce the 4th E. to extinction.

Oh.... Also gravatic warheads could only peel the outer armor off as underneath is a gravaty null field that supports a hull with more gravity than a whole system and surrounds the triple singularity reactor. This field allows a SD to carry billions of smaller craft inside without crushing them.

1.) It's one thing to reduce the gravity of a billion small crafts to zero, it's another thing to counter the event horizon of a black hole...
2.) the 4th Empire has exponential building rates too.
3.) does Core have enough sublight speed AND range to even be able to hit a planetoid ?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-08-26 05:15pm

Dark Hellion wrote:Well, only certain Fan fics are canon accoding to Cavedog canon policy.

And where did that say this? Like I said, no one has ever been able to provide a link or article saying this is so.

And givin 20 minutes, I can write something that would allow Red Shirts to beat TA. Anything I say holds just as much weight as anything which claims 500 kiloton laser cannons, which are pretty clearly bull since the AK can be easily destroyed by burning trees.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2002-08-26 05:18pm

The null field keeps the hull from collapsing into a neutron star. It nullifies all gravity in an area. The speed of TA craft isn't stated but it is very fast. It only takes a couple of minutes to cross the galaxy it just has a long recharge time. As for range 4th E. does have them beat but TA craft can travel in infraspace or hyperspace or one of the other miscellanious dimensions it can fly in to hop out right next to a planetoid. And 4th E. exponential growth cannot compare to a civilization that builds 1000 solar mass starships in 1 month. It takes 1 month for a single construction Kbot to cover an entire earth size planet in buildings. It take 1 week to set up the first orbital shipyard.
It would probably end up much like the game TA did when the 4th E. and core/arm alliance fight. Almost all resources in the galaxies destroyed to deny it to the other side.
It would be close though but in all debates I have seen 4th E. loses.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2002-08-26 06:27pm

Dark Hellion wrote:The null field keeps the hull from collapsing into a neutron star. It nullifies all gravity in an area. The speed of TA craft isn't stated but it is very fast. It only takes a couple of minutes to cross the galaxy it just has a long recharge time. As for range 4th E. does have them beat but TA craft can travel in infraspace or hyperspace or one of the other miscellanious dimensions it can fly in to hop out right next to a planetoid. And 4th E. exponential growth cannot compare to a civilization that builds 1000 solar mass starships in 1 month. It takes 1 month for a single construction Kbot to cover an entire earth size planet in buildings. It take 1 week to set up the first orbital shipyard.
It would probably end up much like the game TA did when the 4th E. and core/arm alliance fight. Almost all resources in the galaxies destroyed to deny it to the other side.
It would be close though but in all debates I have seen 4th E. loses.

the 4th Empire can fly at FTL speed in real space... without infra- or hyperspace ( they have hyperspace too ).

Neutralizing gravity is a good thing against a grav-warhead, but it's not sure how much spare capacity this field has. You need energy to counter gravity, so maybe the strong gravity warheads of the 4th Empire ( esp. if fired in huge volleys ) will be enough to overload the field and kill the TA ship.

I would also like to get a few sources where you got your size and time-frames...

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-08-26 07:52pm

Dark Hellion wrote: The space forces have less about them but I do know the stats of the Core Superdreadnought. Now the core only had (well have for the point of this debate) a couple thousand superdreadnoughts but each is 30,000 kilometers long armoured in multiple Kilometer thick neutronium. It is powered by a triple singularity power generator. It can travel on any of dozens of dimensions and has multi-dimensional shields. The thing is armed with 4, 125 km bore D-cannons thousands of 25 km bore D-cannons and millions of Vulcan plasma cannons and annihilator laser cannons. A small percent of a its firepower can vaporize a planet. It is also armed with Axiom missles. Long ranged missles that can vaporize half a planet with one shot.
I am seriously wondering if anyone can take TA as I have failed to see any pre-culture civilization do it in any forum.

*couhg*OBS*cough*

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-08-28 03:58am

any fanfic giving TA ftl capability other than through the Gateways is a complete violation of the spirit and the reality of the game. Why the hell would you have to specifically develop the Commander to be able to wage a one man war if you have dreadnoughts LARGER THAN THE PLANETS YOU ARE FIGHTING ON? And unless the burning trees that destroy units were all made out of some kind of barely contained plasma that just happens to grow on every known planet they don't have great armor either. By the standards I've heard stated, if I wrote a fanfic where D-cannons bounced off of unarmored humans it would have to be accepted, and wouldn't even contradict any proven knowledge from the game itself, unlike a number of the fics I have seen lying around.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-08-28 05:19am

Well going by the internal scaling of the game (going mostly by Core Contingency), the trees are usually not really that big (just compare the size of the trees to the cars). And the most powerful weapon in the game, the Disintegrator, cannot take out trees in one shot (though they can against the metal units, must be a back-to-front NDF effect).

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2002-08-28 07:41am

Lord of the Farce wrote:Well going by the internal scaling of the game (going mostly by Core Contingency), the trees are usually not really that big (just compare the size of the trees to the cars). And the most powerful weapon in the game, the Disintegrator, cannot take out trees in one shot (though they can against the metal units, must be a back-to-front NDF effect).

That's it ! We will just use WOODEN armor and the TA forces will be helpless !

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2002-08-28 12:23pm

LOL Uhhh...sure HRogge . Anyway I can only see the 4th Empire as being a real ground threat to TA. It would be a VERY interesting fight though.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2002-08-28 11:43pm

Consequences, actually the fact of the matter is galactic gates are part of the spirit of the game. The Arm and Core have fought for so long that both of the navies are reduced to nothing but patrol vessels kept in reserve. There are only a couple of planets left in the galaxy that haven't been vaporised to kill the enemy or to get at the resources. The galactic gates are the final thing that allows them to fight, the feud means so much to them that even though they could have left the galaxy and gone elsewhere they have fought and died for 4 millenia for their ideals. Both sides are zealots, they are both vicious amoral self-replicating homogenizing swarms who will stop at nothing until all life in the galaxy agrees that they were right and the enemy wrong.

As for the fan-fics, Cavedog declared that all fan-fics that keep to the vision of the game and follow the physics are canon. The game physics is modified slightly by Cavedog, many enviromental hazards were added for increased gameplay, planes were slowed in order to conserve processor speed and ranges reduces to allow the game to be played on low res. all other game physics apply.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2002-08-29 04:08am

TA is one of the most overrated Sci Fi universes ever, mostly due to its rabid fanbase that considers their bullshit fanfics canon. Everyone who wants to debate TA has to basically take the fanboys' word for it that fanfics are canon, since no one can provide sources showing it is so, and I believe Cavedog itself is out of business. What we see in the actual game is a civilization that does practically all its fighting on land, with gates providing interplanetary travel. What we see in fanfic are massive fleets of starships hundreds of kilometers long with unimaginable firepower. And that statement about the navies of both sides being reduced to nothing doesn't work. Don't tell me that they don't posess just a few ships, or can't even build one and use it to vape the other side's ground troops. Those fans who wrote the fanfics should be real proud of themselves for butchering the TA universe. And like you just said (and this is giving you the benefit of the doubt that fanfics do count), Cavedog said that fanfics only count if they keep with the vision of the game. Now tell me, do you honestly think 90% of those fanfics do that?

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2002-08-29 07:17am

Captain_Cyran wrote:LOL Uhhh...sure HRogge . Anyway I can only see the 4th Empire as being a real ground threat to TA. It would be a VERY interesting fight though.

next time QUOTE my posting please... how should I know the posting you are talking about ?

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2002-08-29 12:43pm

Lord of the Farce wrote:Well going by the internal scaling of the game (going mostly by Core Contingency), the trees are usually not really that big (just compare the size of the trees to the cars). And the most powerful weapon in the game, the Disintegrator, cannot take out trees in one shot (though they can against the metal units, must be a back-to-front NDF effect).

The d-gun is a NDF effect, but is it is radicaly different from the ST NDF effect you see on phasers.

Disintegrator: This is an ultimate weapon: no physical matter provides protection from it. It works by suppressing the quantum field strength of the ‘gluons’ that hold together atomic nuclei. The matter violently tears itself apart, leaving hydrogen, deuterium, and a burst of free neutrons. This is the major advantage of Disintegrators: anything is destroyed and Heavy Armour provides virtually no protection.

The weapon has a number of disadvantages: First the matter is disintegrated so no metal salvage is possible. Second, the weapon is short range, partly because of the inherent physical limitations of reasonable sized projectors, and partly due do atmospheric attenuation of the effect. The most severe restriction is the vast amounts of energy required to fire it.

A useful attribute of the weapon is that it damages everything in a cone of effect so it can destroy several units that are clustered together

Thats from the game manuel, and last I checked is canon.

Also there are canon examples(from the Galactic War Reports, written by Cavedog) of the Core & the Arm having space ships.

Here is the URL to the webarchive version of it(the version on the caevdog site was pulled when it was bought out):
http://web.archive.org/web/199910080053 ... chive.html

These reports were written weekly, as the Galactic War Game evolved. Each week is a different sector, with 50-100 planets in a sector(each planet in a different system). So these are the creators version of how it happened. Several games have extracts from them included, and all the references to the various Commanders were actual people playing the game!

The war for that sector ended with the destruction of the Arm homeworld of Ralova, where genetic experiments dedicated to the process of "building the better clone" were halted by a single blast from the Core's Orbital Weapon, located at the other end of the sector. The shockwave from the blast disrupted communications signals across the galaxy, slowing the Core's assault on Empyrrean.

FTL shockwave?

[INITIATING SIGNAL FEED]

"I leave you with a thought: all of these creations you prepare to strike down as you have done so for millennia are extensions of myself. They are my arms, my legs, my eyes and ears. Everywhere they go, they take part of me with them. The Core Consciousness will never be understood by mortal minds, and cannot be destroyed by mortal hands. We live on. We live eternal. Step forward for the Patterning, Clones. Step forward or die."

[END SIGNAL FEED]

...
Will the clones ever be safe from patterned tyranny? (Arm Supreme Commander) Bossman seems to believe so.

"The Arm is spread farther than you can ever imagine. We've got hidey-holes stashed across the universe. You can't get into a war with an army of killing machines without preparing for the worst. I've got friends on the move out there, and they're counting on me to keep them alive. They're not about to be let down. Not in this lifetime; not in any to come."

The warm orange glow of the engine burst into new life as the drive kicked into high gear. Five enormous Arm Pioneer-class Colony ships broke formation and rocketed off in different directions. Family and friends were separated, hurriedly packed into the craft as the Core closed its steely fist around Empyrrean.

Canon proof of spaceships in TA.

While merchants and visitors flee the sector in enormous deep-space craft

Yet more proof of space ships in TA.

Coming ever closer to the planet of Glynholm itself and the colony ship marooned there, the Core has implied strong tactics in choosing its fights, sacrificing one world for the gain of two. Other tactics have involved targeting incoming support vessels, monitoring their source and eliminating them from space before they can reach Arm troops.

This would imply they have space ships that can fire weaponary!

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2002-08-29 02:09pm

ggs wrote:
Lord of the Farce wrote:Well going by the internal scaling of the game (going mostly by Core Contingency), the trees are usually not really that big (just compare the size of the trees to the cars). And the most powerful weapon in the game, the Disintegrator, cannot take out trees in one shot (though they can against the metal units, must be a back-to-front NDF effect).
The d-gun is a NDF effect, but is it is radicaly different from the ST NDF effect you see on phasers.

Disintegrator: This is an ultimate weapon: no physical matter provides protection from it. It works by suppressing the quantum field strength of the ‘gluons’ that hold together atomic nuclei. The matter violently tears itself apart, leaving hydrogen, deuterium, and a burst of free neutrons. This is the major advantage of Disintegrators: anything is destroyed and Heavy Armour provides virtually no protection.

The weapon has a number of disadvantages: First the matter is disintegrated so no metal salvage is possible. Second, the weapon is short range, partly because of the inherent physical limitations of reasonable sized projectors, and partly due do atmospheric attenuation of the effect. The most severe restriction is the vast amounts of energy required to fire it.

A useful attribute of the weapon is that it damages everything in a cone of effect so it can destroy several units that are clustered together
Thats from the game manuel, and last I checked is canon.

Also there are canon examples(from the Galactic War Reports, written by Cavedog) of the Core & the Arm having space ships.

Here is the URL to the webarchive version of it(the version on the caevdog site was pulled when it was bought out):
http://web.archive.org/web/199910080053 ... chive.html

These reports were written weekly, as the Galactic War Game evolved. Each week is a different sector, with 50-100 planets in a sector(each planet in a different system). So these are the creators version of how it happened. Several games have extracts from them included, and all the references to the various Commanders were actual people playing the game!
The war for that sector ended with the destruction of the Arm homeworld of Ralova, where genetic experiments dedicated to the process of "building the better clone" were halted by a single blast from the Core's Orbital Weapon, located at the other end of the sector. The shockwave from the blast disrupted communications signals across the galaxy, slowing the Core's assault on Empyrrean.
FTL shockwave?

[INITIATING SIGNAL FEED]

"I leave you with a thought: all of these creations you prepare to strike down as you have done so for millennia are extensions of myself. They are my arms, my legs, my eyes and ears. Everywhere they go, they take part of me with them. The Core Consciousness will never be understood by mortal minds, and cannot be destroyed by mortal hands. We live on. We live eternal. Step forward for the Patterning, Clones. Step forward or die."

[END SIGNAL FEED]

...
Will the clones ever be safe from patterned tyranny? (Arm Supreme Commander) Bossman seems to believe so.

"The Arm is spread farther than you can ever imagine. We've got hidey-holes stashed across the universe. You can't get into a war with an army of killing machines without preparing for the worst. I've got friends on the move out there, and they're counting on me to keep them alive. They're not about to be let down. Not in this lifetime; not in any to come."

The warm orange glow of the engine burst into new life as the drive kicked into high gear. Five enormous Arm Pioneer-class Colony ships broke formation and rocketed off in different directions. Family and friends were separated, hurriedly packed into the craft as the Core closed its steely fist around Empyrrean.
Canon proof of spaceships in TA.

While merchants and visitors flee the sector in enormous deep-space craft
Yet more proof of space ships in TA.

Coming ever closer to the planet of Glynholm itself and the colony ship marooned there, the Core has implied strong tactics in choosing its fights, sacrificing one world for the gain of two. Other tactics have involved targeting incoming support vessels, monitoring their source and eliminating them from space before they can reach Arm troops.
This would imply they have space ships that can fire weaponary!

nice. You have shown they have warships... even warships with weapons !

Now you have only to proof that they have these "10-times-heavier-than-a-sun" starships...

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2002-08-29 05:08pm

Jim, if you believe TA is overrated that is your opinion however people have done calculations on damage, they are flinging multikilometer ranged megaton strength weapons at each other.
Also the planet of IIRC roughpelt(is that the right one ggs) was cracked in half by ground warfare, do you know how much energy that would take.
And to try and pass your interpretation of the vision of the game off as real is some what shameless. First they don't vaporise planets because of fear of retribution (same reason the U.S. didn't nuke russia) and because there are only a few dozen planets left in the galaxy that have any usable natural resources left, all other planets were smashed in the first 2000 years by the fleets or mined out and abandoned. Second, the galactic gates showed how much they hate each other the grand civilization is gone but they will fight with whatever they have left just to be the side that was right.

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