The future of humanity: Imperium vs Coalition (RAR!)

[Zor]

In this scenario it is the future, specifically it's the year 780 After Tranquility, or 2749 CE if you insist on using the old Gregorian calender. Humanity is now fairly widespread across an area some 5,000 light years in diameter, but is divided into two political blocks battling for the future of mankind.

Humanity managed to conquer space and began expanding out of the solar system in 170 AT after the development of Jump Drive. Hundreds of systems were colonized over the next two centuries by the various nations of Terra linked together by a set of quantum relays. Terraforming projects were laid down. Alien life was found by exploration ships, including three species of sapient lifeforms, the most advanced of which had a few small societies of copper age farmers. However, after about fifty years there were scuffles between the various powers on the frontier which would gradually escalate to warfare. For the first 160 years these conflicts were kept limited, well away from sol and they inevitably ended with some trade concessions or the ceding of a continent from the EU to Japan, a newly claimed colony from Brazil to China or the US having to declaring that it's colony of New Wisconsin is an independent republic and severs all connections to them. That was until 387 AT when a war boiled out of scale and eventually ended with fleets moving in on Sol and devastating Terra three years latter. In the aftermath the old Terran nations fell apart.

In the aftermath of this war, the former colonies of the old Terran powers fell into one of two categories. The first of these was by the most common, which was the emergence of localized successor states. Individual settlements, sections of planets controlled by one old Terran nation, planets, star systems and in a couple of instances groups of two or three star systems developed their own governments and emerged as independent nations. This number increased as refugees fled further out in search of a safe haven. Many of these states began to fight with themselves for a variety of reasons, including blaming neighboring powers descended from rival nations for the devastation of Terra, piracy, power hungry dictators and the emergence of a few rather nasty religions. The second group was the Union of Worlds: a group of some of the older colonies which were committed never to let the tragedy of the war happen again. As such these powers adopted a fairly loose federal government in 395. However, the Union would remain fairly small, with less than 5% of the total colonized systems as members.

However, as time went by the Union got itself involved in an increasing number of wars from it's neighboring states. In 458 AT the Union defeated the forces of New Hellas and occupied it for a few years, deposing it's old militarist government and installing a new democratic one. The New Hellanic Republic, however soon reverted back to militaristic dictatorship under the Neo-Spartiate Party. There were other such incidents which led to the emergence of a new ideology which stated that unless humanity was united under one batter, war would be a continuous scourge on mankind. Eventually in 489 to 496, the Union of worlds attacked by a loose coalition of it's neighbors who had the benefit of some brilliant admirals and some early victories. Never the less, the Union managed to gear its military to total war, drive out the invaders and invaded its attackers. This war served to strengthen the union government by necessity and eventually led to the rise of the Unificationists as a political force. Instead of letting these successor states go, they were to be integrated into the Union. Programs of integration were imposed on the conquered worlds to reconstruct them into parts of the Union, including educational programs and, in a fair deal of cases, Neurological Reprogramming of members of resistance movements. Eventually this program was successful, after becoming the most hotly debated part of the Union's politics, which led to the Union of Worlds to be rebuilt and in 544 renamed into a new state. One with the objective of bringing all of humanity under it's banner: The Unified Imperium.

The Imperial Navy and the Imperial Marine Corps began to push out and annexed systems of what they called "Barbarians" (with varying degrees of accuracy) by system either with the threat of force. The Imperium has taken a few page's from Rome's playbook and is divided into two areas, the Provinces and the Reconstructional Zones. The Provinces are well integrated areas populated by citizens, who live in an authoritarian democratic state. Citizens have democratic rights in the Imperial Diet. The Reconstructional Zones are planets comparatively new conquests of the Imperium, which, as the name suggests are undergoing reconstruction and integration. By approval of the Imperial Diet, Reconstructional Zones may be converted into new provinces. Certain laws are set in stone in the Imperium, most notably those which forbid elements of the Empire from breaking off.

Reconstructional Zones are populated mostly by Subjects. Subjects, unlike citizens can not vote in anything other than a town or (in the case of those subjects living in cities with more than 50,000 people) district elections, don't have freedom of movement and are required to Kowtow before Imperial Officials, though they do have some legal rights. Subjects are classified into four classes, Class-I subjects are the least likely to rebel but are not fully integrated and have the greatest degree of individual freedom, Class-IV subjects are from populations hostile and are kept under tight watch with far more heavy handed policies are employed. The punishment for rebellion or insurection was Neurological Reprogramming. In extreme cases, widespread Neurological Reprogramming was used on rebellious subject populations. Subjects can become Citizens through a variety of means, in some cases citizenship can be bought, citizenship is often given out to exceptional individuals as a reward as well as either 30 years of service as a Police Officer or 15 years of service in the Imperial Military (which involves being subjected to a neural probe to deal with potential saboteurs and infiltration), almost inevitably stationed elsewhere in the Empire. The Imperium makes extensive use of cheap military robots to police its conquered planets under observation of human commanders at either the squad or platoon level. When an Reconstructional Zone becomes a province, it's subjects becomes citizens. Most of the Imperium's army were Armed Keepers of Order (AKOs), forces of motorized infantry trained in urban combat as well as policing

However, the rise of the Imperium got people concerned. In 610, after the Unified Imperium had tripled in size, two hundred established non Imperial powers gathered together and formed the Coalition of Free Stars with one goal in mind: defense against this new power which sought to conquer all of mankind. In 615 the Coalition went up against the Unified Imperium in the first Coalition/Imperial War and managed to defeat their latest attempt at expansion by sheer force of numbers and liberated a few newly conquered planets. However in 622, the Imperium launched a counter offensive which retook those lost worlds and managed to take a few coalition planets. Thus began a series of about thirty on and off war

The Coalition is a loose organization dedicated almost entirely to warfare against the Unified Imperium, either as a central command of the various militaries of coalition states, maintaining a quantum relay network for communication or as a means of coordinating resources to help develop and expand military production. In the coalition are a wide variety of states and mostly leaves internal affairs in the hands of local government. The Coalition has in itself a wide variety of states, many of which are democratic, but it also includes a few monarchies, military dictatorships and theocracies. Many of them have longstanding rivalries which, while they have put aside with the looming threat of the Unified Imperium. Each world is required to provide military manpower and material to the war effort.

Membership in the Coalition is theoretically a voluntary affair. That said, the Coalition takes a dim view on neutral powers and does use strong arm tactics to get other states to join it, including sponsoring the campaigns of pro-coalition political parties in perspective members and coup d'etats. Occasionally they will use some pretext to use military force to force a system to joining them, but this is the exception rather than the rule. On the occasions in which they occupy Imperial territory, they come down hard on Imperial sympathizers, though they have agreed not to use Neurological Reprogramming. The aim is not conquest, but to create/restore independent governments. Both the Imperium and the Coalition have expanded somewhat since the wars began.

It should be noted that the Coalition comes with a termination clause. Should the Unified Imperium be completely defeated the Coalition, having served it's purpose is to be dissolved. Some Coalition States have agreed to form a peaceful economic alliance in such an event, but far from all of it' members have signed up on this.

Space warfare involves fleets of dozens to thousands of ships ranging in length from 300 to 1500 meters armed with long range missiles, lasers with ranges of about a light second (or two in the case of really heavy weapons which cruisers are built around and battleships will carry two of in huge turrets), counter missiles and laser clusters and plasma cannons for close quarters fighting at ranges of 100,000 to 50,000 km, as well as smaller 10 to 30 meter long fightercraft for point defense, scouting and fighting and heavy customizable flagships between 1500 and 2000 meters long. Capital ships have shields, but only cruisers, battleships and flagships can form bubbles around them. Destroyers can only form shields on two of their sides and forwards while frigates can only mantain a forward shield. FTL communication exists, as do FTL sensors. However, all FTL sensors can do is state that a ship with a certain mass had jumped into X area of realspace with two light years. Ships can not jump too close to big objects like planets and stars. Sol's jump limit is about an AU more than Uranus's orbit. Ground warfare is similar to modern ground warfare, only the tanks can fly. Imperial Navy Ships as a rule are more durable, have slightly longer ranged weapons, are better supplied and are standardized. Coalition ships are more often than not faster and have a 1.5 numeric advantage, but have logistical problems made all the worse by a lack of standardization.

So far neither side has turned to planet sterilization, partially because there are defenses such as planetary shield networks and interception boeys to deal with KKVs, partly because the Imperium has no interest in conquering radioactive rubble, partly because it would incur similar devastation to be wrought due to retaliation. Both do some degree of scorched earth policies when they have to abandon their systems. The Imperium usually destroys shipyards, relays and military bases. The coalition will do that, as well as damaging general infrastructure to hinder the Imperial advance.

The conflict is now at turning point, and it could go either way ending in the conquest of the Coalition of Free Stars or the Unified Imperium being broken apart in the subsequent ten year. Of these two powers, which one would you have win?

Zor

[Tandrax218]

forgive me for asking but this story is this your own made story or is this some setting from some book or series ??

-slight off topic--
does anyone know the name of the books that have the story of aliens coming to earth and using roman soldiers in conquering the other species and planets around, because war is waged with swords and shields for the purpose of saving infrastructure and stuff, and humans are good at killing??
Can't remember the name...

[Simon_Jester]

Ranks of Bronze, by David Drake. The premise is more complicated than you remember but that's the basic idea, yeah.


Meanwhile. I really really oppose the empire's habit of rewriting the brains of people it doesn't like, which is at best morally equivalent to mass murder and arguably worse because it allows you to create large numbers of humans who are your loving slaves. That all by itself would justify the Coalition in resisting this giant conquering thug-country.

Because seriously, the imperial government is going to be implementing this on a huge scale if they win, destroying billions of minds and recreating them in its image. I think it's inevitable that such a society would start using the neural reprogramming technology on its own dissidents*. The next thing you know, all humanity is locked in a permanent tyranny because anyone who wants to do anything about the tyranny gets mindwiped and turned into another loyal stormtrooper.

*Think of the "if you disagree with our social order you must be insane, comrade!" attitude that used psychiatric hospitals to suppress dissenters in the Soviet Union.

I mean, seriously, it's a poster boy for Orwellianism.

[Borgholio]

Ideologically, I would support the Coalition. Imperium is too heavy handed and invasive for my taste.

With that being said, I fear the Imperium would win. A strong centralized power would be able to mobilize it's resources better and would have less in-fighting than a coalition that is scheduled to break apart when its done anyways.

[Tandrax218]

thanx Simon

what about the first question ??

[Zor]

forgive me for asking but this story is this your own made story or is this some setting from some book or series ??

The Unified Imperium is an idea that I came up with the idea myself, worked it out from one of my older sci-fi universe ideas. I also used it in one of the STGOD scenarios.

Zor

[Tandrax218]

hmm having read all this there are some questions looming..

1. If the Coalition wins, and then disbands will anarchy, strife and war engulf a portion of the states?? With no mutual enemy old rivalry's will blossom...

2. If the goal of the coalition is to destroy the Imperium and stop the neural reprogramming, whats stopping some states from using the same technology after the war ends if the coalition wins ??

3. To what extent does the reprogramming alter the person ? Does it just suppress and remove violent anti-imperial thoughts or does it make a person a drone/zombie that goes around yelling "Rebel scum; For the Imperium ! " ???

[Highlord Laan]

I'm no fanatic and acknowledge that both powers are walls of dicks. That said, the only time my knee hits the dirt is when I'em working or aiming, so for the Coalition it is. Though I'd certainly like the Coalition to get a solid military, economic and non-aggression treaty signed among it's members.

[gigabytelord]

I'm forced to go with the coalition as well but for only one reason, mind wipe, I'm sorry but if I bow my knee I do so willingly.

[Zor]

2. If the goal of the coalition is to destroy the Imperium and stop the neural reprogramming, whats stopping some states from using the same technology after the war ends if the coalition wins ??

It was part of the coalition's treaty that no member power should employ neurological reprogramming.

3. To what extent does the reprogramming alter the person ? Does it just suppress and remove violent anti-imperial thoughts or does it make a person a drone/zombie that goes around yelling "Rebel scum; For the Imperium ! " ???

It does not make people into drones or zombies incapable of functioning like a normal human being, that said it is more than capable of reworking the mind of an anti-imperial religious zealot into a loyal citizen.

Zor

[Simon_Jester]

Ideologically, I would support the Coalition. Imperium is too heavy handed and invasive for my taste.

With that being said, I fear the Imperium would win. A strong centralized power would be able to mobilize it's resources better and would have less in-fighting than a coalition that is scheduled to break apart when its done anyways.

That is far from obvious, especially since the war's been going on long enough that logically many of the Coalition powers would have standardized on logistical issues just to save money for themselves. Sort of like how in real life most or all of the NATO countries use the standardized 5.56mm and 7.62mm rounds, whereas seventy years ago practically no two countries used the same calibers for everything.

hmm having read all this there are some questions looming..

1. If the Coalition wins, and then disbands will anarchy, strife and war engulf a portion of the states?? With no mutual enemy old rivalry's will blossom...

Since that's the normal state of the human universe anyway, I'm not too concerned if it does.

2. If the goal of the coalition is to destroy the Imperium and stop the neural reprogramming, whats stopping some states from using the same technology after the war ends if the coalition wins ??

They're weaker than the Imperium was; if they try to do the same things they will be easier to beat than the Imperium.

3. To what extent does the reprogramming alter the person ? Does it just suppress and remove violent anti-imperial thoughts or does it make a person a drone/zombie that goes around yelling "Rebel scum; For the Imperium ! " ???

Probably whichever the reprogrammers want, which is part of the problem. If you can take people and make them into whoever you want, it's almost impossible to resist the urge to tyrannize them, and very difficult to imagine your tyranny ever ending unless it's destroyed from outside.

3. To what extent does the reprogramming alter the person ? Does it just suppress and remove violent anti-imperial thoughts or does it make a person a drone/zombie that goes around yelling "Rebel scum; For the Imperium ! " ???

It does not make people into drones or zombies incapable of functioning like a normal human being, that said it is more than capable of reworking the mind of an anti-imperial religious zealot into a loyal citizen.

Zor

Translation: it could make people into zombie-like mental midgets, but I don't want to imagine my Imperium doing that, so they just completely erase people's brains and copy-paste in new minds.

Seriously, I bet that in the occupied territories this would routinely be used to de facto lobotomize people. Because by having heavily armed troops parading around all the time and everything, you create situations where even "loyal Imperial citizens" would be driven to revolt yet again by the crappy conditions.

[Tandrax218]

hmm
What are the chances of the next emperor of this imperium to ban the use of neural reprogramming. I'm asking because i want to know who was the most zealous supporter of this idea in the first place..
Military corporations, bankers, science lobby , the ruling elite or all these together, or was it just one of them and then it got quickly accepted and now its used on a regular basis...

And if this is used all the time then the question is who IS NOT brainwashed in this imperium ??
Who watches the watchers ??

[Simon_Jester]

I'm honestly curious, who's voting for the Imperium, and why? Because right now the tally is 5 to 4, and I haven't seen anyone present arguments for why they'd want the Imperium to win.

[Tandrax218]

hell i would vote for them if it wasn't the whole neural thing

[Zor]

hmm
What are the chances of the next emperor of this imperium to ban the use of neural reprogramming. I'm asking because i want to know who was the most zealous supporter of this idea in the first place..
Military corporations, bankers, science lobby , the ruling elite or all these together, or was it just one of them and then it got quickly accepted and now its used on a regular basis...

And if this is used all the time then the question is who IS NOT brainwashed in this imperium ??
Who watches the watchers ??

1-The Imperium does not have an Emperor, it has a Diet, a Prime Minister and a Chancellor.
2-Most people in the Imperium are not subjected to neurological reprogramming. Its a punishment used on criminals and rebels.

Zor

[Simon_Jester]

hell i would vote for them if it wasn't the whole neural thing

Why?

2-Most people in the Imperium are not subjected to neurological reprogramming. Its a punishment used on criminals and rebels.

Zor

And what safeguards are in place to stop it from being used on, say, the mentally ill, then the medicalized-dissenters, until basically anyone who seriously disagrees with the status quo is getting their brain rewritten?

Do you not get how incredibly easy it is to abuse a technology that literally lets you take your political enemies and turn them into supporters against their will, in a society where somehow this seems to be accepted as a humane thing to do?

[Darkevilme]

The imperium is creepy. And I'm not just saying this to bandwagon, neural reprogramming is downright chilling, at best you're mutilating someone's mind by carving out the bits you don't happen to like and at worst you're killing them and not even giving them the common decency of a grave cause your new designer person is wearing their corpse.

So yeah voting coalition. The fact the coalition explicitly has a 'once we've outlived our usefulness we disband' principle is just a handy bonus. And hell I'm guessing when that happy day occurs the coalition will use their existing diplomatic channels to let some very war weary politicians hash out a 'no more bullshit for a while' deal.

[Zor]

Translation: it could make people into zombie-like mental midgets, but I don't want to imagine my Imperium doing that, so they just completely erase people's brains and copy-paste in new minds.

Seriously, I bet that in the occupied territories this would routinely be used to de facto lobotomize people. Because by having heavily armed troops parading around all the time and everything, you create situations where even "loyal Imperial citizens" would be driven to revolt yet again by the crappy conditions.

They can make robots to do their grunt work, making 'mental midgets' is on top of everything else uneconomical for them.

Zor

[madd0ct0r]

I don't see why modifying someone's behavour by neural programming is so much worse then modifying their behavoouir be advertising, laws, contracts ect.

I'm voting imperium, as I'd like to be on the winning side.

[Simon_Jester]

Translation: it could make people into zombie-like mental midgets, but I don't want to imagine my Imperium doing that, so they just completely erase people's brains and copy-paste in new minds.

Seriously, I bet that in the occupied territories this would routinely be used to de facto lobotomize people. Because by having heavily armed troops parading around all the time and everything, you create situations where even "loyal Imperial citizens" would be driven to revolt yet again by the crappy conditions.

They can make robots to do their grunt work, making 'mental midgets' is on top of everything else uneconomical for them.

Zor

If neural reprogramming is that expensive, how do they do it to entire rebellious planetary populations?

Also, if the only thing stopping them from using neural reprogramming to create an underclass of lobotomized, loving slaves is that it isn't economical, then this society is seriously fucked up and evil.

I don't see why modifying someone's behavour by neural programming is so much worse then modifying their behavoouir be advertising, laws, contracts ect.

Because it's nonconsensual. You don't get to decide not to sign the contract, or to ignore the advertising. You are literally dragged to a gurney where surgeons will operate on your brain until you are no longer willing or able to engage in resistance to the state.

It's very much like having the state decide to start "dealing with" troublesome criminals, dissenters, and ethnic minorities with mass lobotomies. And that's damn sure a human rights violation.

The only difference is that with neural reprogramming, after you've lobotomized the original person so they stop being troublesome, you can transplant in whatever kind of mind you want and create an entirely new person in the old body.

Ethically speaking, that's not a difference.

[By the way, Zor has already written portrayals of neural reprogramming in action; I could link if you want]

I'm voting imperium, as I'd like to be on the winning side.

I see no reason to assume they're going to win. Bunches of fascist goons usually don't make a good showing over the long haul.

[madd0ct0r]

"It's very much like having the state decide to start "dealing with" troublesome criminals, dissenters, and ethnic minorities with" arrest, imprisonment, fines and other non consensual impositions. We're talking members of resistance movements here. We jail people for less already. What is jail but neurological reprogramming done crudely?
At least these people are used productively and returned to society.

[Borgholio]

Moral question - if we have someone who is a serial killer, or who enjoys torturing small animals...say they are caught and convicted in a (fair) court of law. Would it then be considered inhumane to reprogram just the part of them that is responsible for their behavior? Make the killer find murder to be reprehensible, make the torturer want to help animals instead of hurt them? Would that be immoral or would that be preferable to being locked up in prison for 30 years?

[Darkevilme]

I admit. I suck at introspection so bear with me as I try to work through why I object to neural reprogramming but not say, propaganda or something. I think the root is that we all agree you are the sum influence of your experiences (barring nature, but that's another discussion). Prison and propaganda, hell negative though they are they're still experiences that shape the future person. Neural reprogramming is deleting experiences or replacing them in order to shape the future person. You lose something of who you are in the process where as with the rest you don't. Would you be okay with using amnesia as a punishment on people? especially for political reasons?

[Borgholio]

Would you be okay with using amnesia as a punishment on people? especially for political reasons?

For political reasons, certainly not.

But tweaking someone's mine to prevent them from committing another crime such as murder, rape, drug dealing, etc... That doesn't seem like such a bad thing because they actually committed a crime first.

[Simon_Jester]

"It's very much like having the state decide to start "dealing with" troublesome criminals, dissenters, and ethnic minorities with" arrest, imprisonment, fines and other non consensual impositions. We're talking members of resistance movements here. We jail people for less already. What is jail but neurological reprogramming done crudely?

Jail lets you decide to change, or to not change- there's a certain respect for the dignity and integrity of the human mind that is not lost.

If modern society decides that your mindstate needs to be destroyed, it kills you- and if killing people is inhumane, so is this.

At least these people are used productively and returned to society.

I would argue that 'these people,' in the sense of distinct minds, personalities, threads of continuous experience, are NOT "used productively and returned to society." They are killed and others return wearing their flesh.

At the very least it's the equivalent of what's done to Winston Smith in 1984 to make sure that at the end of the novel "he loved Big Brother." Brutally nonconsensual, utterly changes someone's personality and either makes them a shell of their former self.

At most it destroys them and creates a new personality who shares nothing with the previous one except for 50-100 kilos of meat.

Moral question - if we have someone who is a serial killer, or who enjoys torturing small animals...say they are caught and convicted in a (fair) court of law. Would it then be considered inhumane to reprogram just the part of them that is responsible for their behavior?

For a serial killer maybe, because at that point killing them would be justified, so invasive psychological modification is possibly also justified.

[I know and respect at least one person who would say it is not justified, and that it is better to simply execute someone squarely than to forcibly invade their mind and alter it to suit your will]

Make the killer find murder to be reprehensible, make the torturer want to help animals instead of hurt them? Would that be immoral or would that be preferable to being locked up in prison for 30 years?

Remember that it's not as simple as saying "It seems less harsh to do this than to lock them in jail, so it is right to do this."

First of all, while what you're doing may seem more harmful to the person you do it to than you think. Other people may value the integrity of their mind or body more than you do; they might actually choose death rather than radical personality alterations or surgery. And if you have any regard for human dignity you have to be prepared to accept choices like that, in my opinion.

Second, decisions about what is 'humane' don't always boil down to utilitarian calculations. There are other principles involved; there are things it's wrong to do because you haven't got the right, even if you can say:

"According to my calculations if all goes as planned, this will result in 150 units of harm while any other course of action would result in 168 units or more of harm."

Sometimes you simply do not have grounds to step in and make that decision, even if in your opinion it is less harmful. You might not have all the facts, you might not have the authority, or there might be a greater moral principle at stake.