Power Armor or Personnal Shields (RAR!)

[Zor]

One day, two new companies come up with two lines of products for the united states military.

The first has come up with an armored powered exoskeleton. Each suit costs $250,000 up front. For that, you get a fully enclosed suit weighing in at 225-250kgs. It gives the user the ability to lift a compact car over his/her head. In terms of defense, it carries a number of modular plates and nanofibrers. Said plates are excellent against shrapnel and rifle caliber ammunition and it's torso armor can even survive a hit from a 50 caliber anti material bullet. The main weapon which they have set up is a modified FN-Minimi fed from a backpack hopper, but other systems (both as conventional guns which are held in hand and built in systems for arm mounts) could be designed. It has a replaceable rechargeable power cells which will allow a soldier in said armor to operate for 8 hours conscientiously. Said power suit is environmentally sealed and has a built in radio, targeting computer and sensor suite. It has an emergency release to allow a soldier to leave a broken suit and run to safety. Learning to operate a suit is fairly easy.

The second one is a personal energy shield generator. It costs $100,000 per unit and is composed of a backpack power cell and a number of projectors attached by cable to the torso (front and back), lower legs, wrists and one for the top of the head along with a handheld controller. Said system weighs 12 kilograms total. When engaged at full power, said shield generator establishes an energy shield around the user. Objects can go out unimpeded. Things coming in at a shield at high speeds are deflected or shoved away. A thrown rock will most likely be shoved aside, a bullet will be stopped in its' tracks. A shield at full power can deflect a couple mags of AK-47 fire or even a couple 50 cal bullets. Moreover it regenerates. After a few minutes of nearly being taken down to breaking, the system will cool down and be back up to full strength. The system is a bit less complex to repair due to it's small scale. In general it has two main settings, full power and economy. When at full power, it offers the protection listed above, but will drain it's power cell dry in 90 minute, with each hit sapping time off that counter. For this reason there is also the low power setting. This will provide 9 hours of continuous operation and can take a burst or two from an AK-47, but is more easily brought down. An anti-material rifle shot will go straight through. A third setting exists where a shield is on low power until it hit, then it goes up to full power. A shield failure on low power is not good for the shield projectors, on full power it will likely burn out a projector or two.

Both companies are unwilling to form a joint venture and create shielded power armor.

Which would you choose?

Zor

[Jub]

I have to go with shields. They're just too useful for other applications and rolling them out will be good now and better later. I also get the feeling that powered exoskeleton + shields is still close to as good as straight power armor.

[Purple]

Why does it have to be a choice? Yes, the two companies absolutely refuse to create a mixed product. But that does not mean you can't but a batch of each product and use them separately for different roles.
The powered armor could come in handy for various logistics roles as well as field medics, heavy weapon users and other applications where strength is more important than protection. Doubly so if your army is expected to help out in disaster relief. So a limited batch of those is a must.
Meanwhile the shields would be something I would buy in bulk to issue to every soldier. Just make sure to modify setting 3 with something like a gunfire locator so that instead of reacting to being hit it reacts to being shot at.

Also, for the sake of science throw money at the shield guys to build a vehicle sized version.

[bilateralrope]

It sounds much easier to work shields into current infantry tactics than it would be to work in power armor, as the increased weight and bulk of the power armor would mean transport vehicles need to be adjusted to accommodate it. While the shields can fit in with the rest of a soldiers kit. Shields can be taken inside much easier than power armor.

So if I could only have one, I'd go with the shields. But I'd prefer to buy batches of both, issuing some people with shields, others with power armor, depending on what suits their mission best.

[Zor]

Also, for the sake of science throw money at the shield guys to build a vehicle sized version.

The Shield Guys have been working on vehicle mounted shield generators, though these will increase the power consumption of a vehicle.

At the same time the Power Armor guys offer a lot of advanced robotics for recon, bomb disposal and logistical purposes.

Zor

[Jub]

Add an extra generator or engine to a tank and you'll have tons of power for vehicle sized shields.

[InsaneTD]

It's not that simple. An extra engine would need fuel, and need to be wired into the tanks controls. Both the fuel and the generator would need armour to protect them. It really either needs to be an upgrade to an existing design that doesn't cause many, or ideally, any comprises, or a brand new design. You'd probably want to go with a new design to make best use of the extra protection and lessen or possibly exploit, if possible, any quirks found from mounting a shield on a tank.

[Jub]

It's not that simple. An extra engine would need fuel, and need to be wired into the tanks controls. Both the fuel and the generator would need armour to protect them. It really either needs to be an upgrade to an existing design that doesn't cause many, or ideally, any comprises, or a brand new design. You'd probably want to go with a new design to make best use of the extra protection and lessen or possibly exploit, if possible, any quirks found from mounting a shield on a tank.

Honestly, that doesn't seem overly hard given some of the modifications military vehicles have faced over their lifespans. It might not be as easy as just slap bits on and viola shielded tank, but it's not going to take too long to get a prototype working.

[Beowulf]

A helmet and body armor current weighs in the vicinity of 33lbs. The shielding is more effective and lighter weight. It just has a power requirement (which isn't as much of an issue for mechanized troops. It's almost certainly a good idea to buy it.

[LaCroix]

Both the fuel and the generator would need armour to protect them.

The vehicle (be it a tank or a APC) is already armored all around to begin with, and the system would provide it's own armor increase by projecting the shield around the vehicle, so this shouldn't be an issue, right? It simply takes up some volume.



For starters, you could take out the PA quite easily with enough firepower like a grenade launcher, mortar, RPG, or a 'real' AM rifle (not just a .50 cal - something like this baby). On the other hand, the protection is always on, NBC sealed, climate-controlled, and it also enables the user to move faster without fatigue in about any terrain.

The added strenght is useful in a modern military setting, apart from the fact that it means you could put a bigger gun on it, you could use the suits to carry additional materiel, like mortars and stuff, with them. Sure, you need to dismount to use them, but you could give a squad a lot of organic capabilities without any downsides. It even works as extra ablative armor, unless you are the poor sod carrying the ammo.

The shield is seemingly capable of taking as big of a hit as the battery allows. In theory, it would even deflect an RPG aside, which would already be huge boost to protection, even if it still detonates. The only problem is that the shield doesn't protect you from mines or gas, or the environment you are travelling through. Heat, dust, bugs, foliage and snakes are not impressed by that system.

For the price, the suit seems to add more capabilites to the soldier, while the shield is easier to integrate.

Most important, you could put a lot (more than a car's weight, since carry load is usually much higher than lifting load) of powerarmor suit batteries/water/rations/ammo in a backpack, enabling the suit to run independently for weeks between restocking. Add some tools, spare parts, and replacement armor to the load, and you are good to go. Hell, you could even strap some complete replacement suits onto some sqad members, as they are well under the carry load with ~250kg, per unit.

Still, the suit needs power to operate on a patrol. But if it breaks down and can't be repaired, it still carries gear to allow the pilot to continue as standard infantry (the few pounds of body armor, stuff, and rifle should fit the glove compartment, easily ).

The shield user is forced to stay nearby a power source, as you can't carry that many spare batteries on a soldier also carrying his own gear, so your maximum mission time using it is probably measured in days, provided it's always on. If you turn it off while on march and only on while you are in an elevated danger region, you'll have longer range, but still be hampered by weight of your provisions. If it breaks down, you need to have a spare set or a body armor. - It will probably only result in gear creep, and added on top of the normal ballistic armor, if I know how the REMFs think....

I'd go for the suit.

[InsaneTD]

Both the fuel and the generator would need armour to protect them.

The vehicle (be it a tank or a APC) is already armored all around to begin with, and the system would provide it's own armor increase by projecting the shield around the vehicle, so this shouldn't be an issue, right? It simply takes up some volume.

I was thinking about units retrofitted to existing vehicles. I've never served so I've never seen the inside of a military vehicle, everything I've read says space is normally at a premium already so fitting it inside the vehicle will reduce it's capabilities. Mounting the power gear outside would cause issues as well. A new generation of fighting vehicles built with the shielding integrated is the best option. Still, getting a bit off topic.

I could see uses for both. Though I think the shield would be better on vehicles and bases. You'd then have more and better options for power.

[Purple]

Add an extra generator or engine to a tank and you'll have tons of power for vehicle sized shields.

Space is really at a premium in these vehicles. You literally could not find enough room in a modern tank to fit a mini fridge, let alone a second engine. it just isn't happening. Not that it needs to anyway. The tanks own engines are already designed to be shifting between 60 and 80 tons of armor around. Adding a shield generator (assuming the protective power scales with size) might allow you to take most of that weight out of your vehicle. So there should be a lot of spare power left in the engine.

[Simon_Jester]

If I were in charge of DARPA I'd be pouring money into that shield-generator company as fast as the budget would allow, because the implications are staggering and man-sized personal force fields are only the beginning.

On the tactical level:

The shield generators have the advantage of being easier to maintain in the field, in that they consist of several relatively small 'plug and play' components connected by electrical cables with no moving parts. If your shield fails due to maintenance issues, you can swap out pieces pretty easily.

Power armor, by contrast, has a lot of moving parts which experience a variety of heavy loads during routine use even before someone starts shooting at them, and if something breaks there's a good chance that the suit (and wearer) are immobilized and helpless in the middle of a combat zone until somebody can pick them up, haul them back to base, and call a mechanic.

[TOSDOC]

I can see the military investing in both at a squad level, with one or two powered-armor individuals backing up a squad equipped with shields, as well as for different roles in the field. I've got a few questions before just picking one, though:

If I were a military buyer, I'd be concerned on how the shield system's power level functions need work in a combat environment. How about some sensors that could detect incoming threats in enough time for the suit to snap on at full power even before it takes the first hit? A pressure wave, maybe? That could both save power and save the soldier from suffering from a first hit that may incapacitate him before the shield can fully protect him.

Also, what if the soldier is unconscious and the shield is still on? How do we give him medical attention? Is there a remote turnoff by a medic? If so, the medics are automatic targets by the enemy regardless of Geneva. Can a shielded soldier still pick up items, or another shielded soldier?

What's to stop some squad eggheads from equipping a suit with a shield taken from a downed comrade? Are we talking Microsoft-Apple software differences in these two companies?

[Borgholio]

Low-velocity things will not be blocked by the shield. A medic's hands, a bandage, a needle of morphine...all those should go through fine. Reaching in to turn it off be fine as well. It sounds like a shielded solder CAN pick things up. I'm clueless about the two shielded solders, however...that's a good question.

[Purple]

How about some sensors that could detect incoming threats in enough time for the suit to snap on at full power even before it takes the first hit? A pressure wave, maybe? That could both save power and save the soldier from suffering from a first hit that may incapacitate him before the shield can fully protect him.

I already posted a link to one of those. Basically we already have man portable devices today that can recognize the sound of gunshots and home in on the direction they are coming from. It should be relatively easy to attach these things to a shield.

[Beowulf]

That only works if the first hit isn't the first shot, as bullets are generally supersonic.

[Me2005]

I'd like more info about the armor - how fast can soldiers wearing it travel?

If it's not crazy-fast (at least freeway-fast), you're stuck choosing between a really limited range suit that gets disabled if it runs out of power and a lightweight shield that can be left deactivated for weeks at a time between engagements - shoot, if it goes offline, all you are is as protected as any non-shielded combatant. If the power armor runs out, you're out of luck and have to ditch; and you have no weapons since they're built into the suit. 8 hours simply isn't enough operating time for something you rely on to move.

Now, if the suit had a week or two operating time + supply store for the operator, could move as fast as a car at freeway speeds over reasonable terrain (running, jumping, or straight-up flight), carry a heavy machine gun and all the ammo you'd need, resist weapons up to LMG fire and small explosions/shrapnel, plus the stuff in the OP, it might be a tougher choice. But as-is, it's more of a burden than an aid except in really quick operations or heavily supported operations.

[Simon_Jester]

I'd like more info about the armor - how fast can soldiers wearing it travel?

If it's not crazy-fast (at least freeway-fast), you're stuck choosing between a really limited range suit that gets disabled if it runs out of power and a lightweight shield that can be left deactivated for weeks at a time between engagements - shoot, if it goes offline, all you are is as protected as any non-shielded combatant. If the power armor runs out, you're out of luck and have to ditch; and you have no weapons since they're built into the suit. 8 hours simply isn't enough operating time for something you rely on to move.

True. Infantry equipment needs to be compatible with the basic needs and role of infantry. And one of the roles of infantry is that you can plunk them down in a hole for a week and when you come back, they're still about as fit to fight as they were when you put them there. And, more to the point, they were ready for a fight the whole time.

This is in contrast with, say, aircraft, which are very hard to kill, deliver enormous, devastating offensive punch, can potentially strike at any target within an area of hundreds of thousands of square miles... but pay for all this by only actually being able to fight for a few minutes a day as a rule, then having to return to base to rearm and refuel.

Air support can't replace infantry and vice versa, not because one lacks the firepower of the other or because one carries some unique weapon the other doesn't, but because they represent different distributions of force: infantry represent light force that persists across time, while aircraft represent a short, sharp, intensive shock of force that applies only at a single decisive instant.

That only works if the first hit isn't the first shot, as bullets are generally supersonic.

The biggest situation in which the first round is likely to be instantly fatal in that way if your shield is at low power is if you take a hit from an antimateriel sniper rifle, and if you've reduced the list of infantry weapons that can credibly threaten you to antimateriel rifles, you're doing pretty damn well as it is.

The only other thing that's likely to hit you and kill you on the first shot is artillery, and unless we're talking about very near misses, the personal force-screen should be able to keep out the effects of artillery. Um.

It DOES shield against blast effects, doesn't it? Otherwise that's a limiting factor, yeah.

...

Anyway, I want to try to respect Zor's original condition of "no combining," because that's not the point here. it's like, sure, peanut butter and jelly go together really well, but it's still meaningful to ask which of them is better/more useful individually.

[Me2005]

[quote="Simon_Jester"True. Infantry equipment needs to be compatible with the basic needs and role of infantry. And one of the roles of infantry is that you can plunk them down in a hole for a week and when you come back, they're still about as fit to fight as they were when you put them there. And, more to the point, they were ready for a fight the whole time.[/quote]

Shoot, simple way to endgame this: for the same weight, you could drop a given 10 person group of soldiers with 1 power armor capable of being useful for 8 hours (but admittedly, protect indefinitely) or you could drop your group fully-equipped with shields and with a box of extra shields or shield power-cells. Even if the power cells are most of the weight I'd imagine they'd be easy to set up for hot-swapping.

Carrying several shields/batteries on any given soldier wouldn't be absurd either, if the operation called for it.

[Borgholio]

I think it makes more sense to do the combined arms thing and have a few soldiers in the squad with the armor and the rest of the soldiers with shields. In a modern squad you do typically have a couple guys hauling around the heavy machine guns, mortars, or grenade launchers, while the rest carry standard assault rifles and other misc equipment. So in this scenario you might have two or three soldiers in power armor packing heavy weapons with the rest of the group carrying lighter weapons and using the shields.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm skeptical.

For one, with combined arms you do not want to mix combat elements that have drastically different endurance requirements or mobility characteristics into the same small-scale command structure. The different elements of your force may work together in the field, but each element has to have a discrete command structure and logistics train that's accustomed to supporting its unique needs.

For instance, Infantry and aircraft can work together, but you don't assign one fighter jet to each rifle battalion and somehow expect the battalion to operate the jet in a way advantageous to its own needs. The jets and the grunts are part of totally separate organizations that operate out of separate facilities and may not even be part of the same chain of command until you get to the very highest levels of strategy and politics.

In general, we see this kind of homogeneity throughout the armed forces at at least the small-unit level, up to the level of companies or battalions. Sometimes to much higher levels (e.g. infantry and aircraft). There are a variety of good reasons for this that I could ramble about, but basically, the way that infantry squads tend to be very mixed and divided up among soldiers with different weapons or specializations is the exception rather than the rule.

Even there, there are limits. It's very hard to come up with practical tactics for an infantry squad whose heavy weapons troopers have eight hours of combat endurance but whose ordinary riflemen can stay in the field for days without resupply. You have a very sharp cutoff in combat effectiveness after the first few hours, imposed by the need to conserve power for heavy weapons... but at the same time, the rest of the infantry unit could still be fighting at full effectiveness if they weren't shackled to the big guns.

There are a lot of things infantry are normally called upon to do, that these guys just plain won't be able to do. Because after the first 3-4 hours, everyone is nervously eyeing their battery indicators.

It's less of a problem with the personal shields. Those can be turned off when the unit doesn't really expect to be in immediate danger of being shot at. Say, when you're resting in a foxhole. Then you can switch them back on quickly if the situation becomes more tense (much faster than putting on armor, and more effective!). Also, they're light enough that theoretically the entire unit can carry a set of spare batteries for every man, possibly more than one set.

[Patroklos]

How does the shield deal with momentum? Where does the kinetic energy the shield stops go? Into the pack, or into the individual projectors. If it's the projectors then you need to think about the force that bullet will impart into that body part with a head on hit. I am thinking about the head here.

[Zor]

How does the shield deal with momentum? Where does the kinetic energy the shield stops go? Into the pack, or into the individual projectors. If it's the projectors then you need to think about the force that bullet will impart into that body part with a head on hit. I am thinking about the head here.

Most of it's reflected, some of it ends up in the projectors.

In addition to the main power cell, each suit of power armor has a 10 minute emergency power cell built in, and power cells can be swapped out in the field. The designers of the power armor suit have designed modular external carriers for four additional power cells as well as recharger cables.

Zor

[LaCroix]

You people seem to forget that a power suit enables the soldier to carry a lot more stuff (he can lift a car, damnit!). You know, the very one thing that army developers try to implement with the electronic mule and stuff? These suits will allow soldier to go on longer missions, not shorter - just carry a lot of power cells with you in a backpack, on top of a mortar, shells, and maybe a couple of javelins, without bogging the soldier down. Almost all systems are now man-portable by one soldier!
What's the normal mission time of an infantry squad these days? How long are they out before they return to base, even if it's just a mobile supply station meeting up with them? half day? one day? two days? - you can EASILY carry enough stuff with you to make it that long and longer.
Also - sealed, airconditioned. That's about the best thing that can happen to a soldier. Winter? Desert? Jungle? Who cares!
This suit solves a lot of problems at once.

The shield, on the other hand, only works about 90 minutes if it's on. And if it's not on full power all the time, a sniper or IED will probably get you, because it only turns to full power AFTER the first shot. What's killing most soldiers these day, again? Oh right, Snipers and IEDs... Apart from protection, this system provides no bonus.