Jedi vs Protoss Zealot

[Balrog]

Obi-Wan Kenobi as of RotS vs. Fenix from SC1 just before he buys the farm and gets shoved into a Dragoon body. The two start at opposite ends of the Geonosis Arena from EpII. Both see each other as the enemy and will fight to the death to defeat them. Who wins?

[Terralthra]

Both have similar capabilities. Jedi have force-enhanced physical prowess possibly on par with observed Protoss physical training. Both have limited battle precognition. Both are extremely deadly melee combatants. It could go either way, depending on two variables:
1) Do the psi-blades of the Zealot power armor interact with lightsabre blades? If they function equally, it's a fairly even duel. If they do not interact, it's a brutal slaughter in favor of whichever combatant guesses this first. The fact that in-universe, each weapon can be parried by other sorts of "artifact" melee weapon (electrostaves, the darksaber; warp blades) could be a hint that they will in fact block one another.

2) Does the Zealot plasma shield protect the Zealot from the lightsabre? If it does, and has the sort of bubble around it that a droideka has, it's a significant advantage. If it doesn't have much of a bubble around it, or doesn't provide much protection (I don't think any cutscenes show how much energy of any type it can absorb before collapsing), then it's probably still a fairly even fight.

I don't see offensive Jedi powers being of any significant use in the fight. TK? Meh. Mind trick? Yeah, no. Force lightning? Plasma shield would probably mostly absorb it.

Too close to call, imo.

[Lord Revan]

main problem is that we know jackshit about the capabilities of the Protoss (or nearly so I don't know how well into details the novels go), that said from the games the the protoss shields seem to be hull/body hugging for the most part, only I can remember with a distinct shield bubble is the Immortals with their special shields.

[TheFeniX]

Pretty sure there's a different visible effect when a Protoss unit is hit with shield HP > 0 vs no shield HP. While more noticeable on big units (like the mothership), I have noticed it on zealots. They just have the lowest shields out of any unit, so it doesn't last long. The bubble on Immortals is due to their Hardened Shields.

Both are veterans, prefer melee combat, are armored, protected by ridiculous amounts of plot armor, and psychic, etc. With that, I'd have to give the edge to Obi-Wan because he has offensive powers and Fenix does not. Although, shielded Destroyers give Jedi issues (they don't just force push them away), so I don't know if Fenix's shield are enough to force Obi-Wan to rely on his lightsaber and/or if said lightsaber can get through the shield. Considering what is does cut through, I'd say it can. But it's debatable if Obi-Wan can use TK on Fenix if his shields are up.

That said, Obi-Wan is definitely more nimble than Fenix and could fall back at his leisure (Charge Zealots weren't a thing in SC1).

[Terralthra]

The shield has to make some difference in TK. Obi-Wan force-pushes Grievous at least 8m diagonally up into the air hard enough to dent what he hits (so he'd've gone much further if there hadn't been a ceiling). Grievous is at least on the same scale as a destroyer (or Fenix, come to that), so if he could do that to Grievous, he and Qui-Gon should've been able to just wreck those two destroyer droids instead of retreating. Whether plasma shields make the same difference as the shields in SW, though...

[Lord Revan]

Pretty sure there's a different visible effect when a Protoss unit is hit with shield HP > 0 vs no shield HP. While more noticeable on big units (like the mothership), I have noticed it on zealots. They just have the lowest shields out of any unit, so it doesn't last long. The bubble on Immortals is due to their Hardened Shields.

yeah shields (including Terran units with shields) have of ripple effect while active and hit at, while unshields units have blood/spark hit effect (it's kind of hard to see on Zealots normally as they're not that big)

[TheFeniX]

The shield has to make some difference in TK. Obi-Wan force-pushes Grievous at least 8m diagonally up into the air hard enough to dent what he hits (so he'd've gone much further if there hadn't been a ceiling). Grievous is at least on the same scale as a destroyer (or Fenix, come to that), so if he could do that to Grievous, he and Qui-Gon should've been able to just wreck those two destroyer droids instead of retreating. Whether plasma shields make the same difference as the shields in SW, though...

On that note, the shields don't come up until the droids "unfold" from their rolly-polly shtick, giving Obi-Wan time to inform Qui-Gon about them and both taking a defensive stance, rather than just TKing them before the shield comes up. Only thing I can think of is the construction of the Destroyers is resistant to telekinesis or Qui-Gon didn't think he could disable them before the shield came up and didn't want to risk laser-death.™ Or, more likely, Lucas just wanted a cool scene to extend the length of the movie since, without something to make two Jedi take off, they'd have cut through the door and pretty much ended the primary plot.

[Sgt_Artyom]

I can't recall the episodes but I've seen in a few occasions where in the Clone Wars animated series, Jedi manage to close the distance with destroyers and cut them down whilst their shields are up. Have we ever seen the shields physically blocking something other then blaster bolts entering?

It's kind of confusing because in the movies they're made out to be terrifying and nigh on indestructible to a Jedi whereas in the show you've just gotta to be a little tricky to deal with them.

[Terralthra]

I can't recall the episodes but I've seen in a few occasions where in the Clone Wars animated series, Jedi manage to close the distance with destroyers and cut them down whilst their shields are up. Have we ever seen the shields physically blocking something other then blaster bolts entering?

It's kind of confusing because in the movies they're made out to be terrifying and nigh on indestructible to a Jedi whereas in the show you've just gotta to be a little tricky to deal with them.

The two Jedi were defeated strategically, not tactically. They might've been perfectly capable of taking on the destroyers, but Obi-Wan couldn't hold off both of them (from range) while Qui-Gon went through the door into the bridge. Qui-Gon had to stop his task to help defend. If they take out the two destroyers, they've lost time before Qui-Gon can get back to the blast door. In that time, more destroyers can get sent, and sooner or later, they'll get surrounded and overwhelmed (like happened to Anakin in the droid factory, or Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme in the arena battle). They can no longer succeed in their immediate mission goal, so they disengaged rather than be captured or defeated overall.

[Adam Reynolds]

The problem with TK against droidikas is that they will shoot a Jedi who concentrates on using TK. So Jedi are forced to spend their time deflecting.

Given their effectiveness, I wonder if the TF designed them with the intention of being able to fight Jedi. They are designed in such a fashion that all of a Jedi's weaknesses become apparent. The lack of a ranged heavy weapon and inability to multitask make it rather difficult for a Jedi to take one on. Clone troopers on Geonosis blow them apart with ease, something anyone with something heavier than a pistol should be able to do. There is also the trick shown in Clone Wars(logically flowing from the weakness of Gungan shields in TPM), of rolling a thermal detonator (or at one point with Anakin, sliding an entire Jedi) under the shields at the point of ground contact.

The inverse is in a sense true in that droidikas are effective, but considering their price compared to regular battle droids, they are likely proportionally ineffective against a proper conventional enemy. Clones, with their oversized battle rifles and combined arms are the worst possible enemy for droidikas.

[Simon_Jester]

Pretty sure there's a different visible effect when a Protoss unit is hit with shield HP > 0 vs no shield HP. While more noticeable on big units (like the mothership), I have noticed it on zealots. They just have the lowest shields out of any unit, so it doesn't last long. The bubble on Immortals is due to their Hardened Shields.

The shield is visible and the in-game sprite looks like a bubble... but the wireframe models in Starcraft 1 show the shields as being hull-hugging.

That said, Obi-Wan is definitely more nimble than Fenix and could fall back at his leisure (Charge Zealots weren't a thing in SC1).

Zealots with leg enhancements were, and Zealots with leg enhancements were pretty damn fast. There were faster units, but most of them were aircraft or motorized vehicles.

We know the Protoss do make use of cybernetic enhancements, so it wouldn't be surprising to find Fenix being superhumanly fast.

[Me2005]

We know the Protoss do make use of cybernetic enhancements, so it wouldn't be surprising to find Fenix being superhumanly fast.

From the wiki, Protoss are also just plain significantly larger than humans:

Protoss are about two meters (seven feet) to three meters tall...

Put in perspective:

...the twelve-foot tall Goliath features all-terrain maneuverability...

So a male warrior-cast Protoss is nearly the same size as a Goliath walker.

Personally, I'd assume that:
A) The psi-blades and light sabers block each other - otherwise why would Zor pit the units against each other?
B) Protoss shields block lightsabers, because they block psi-blades in-game when Protoss fight other Protoss (Such infighting happens in the story, so it's not solely a game mechanic for when two players fight).
And C) Protoss are immune to mind tricks.

Fenix is wearing power armor designed for melee psi-blade combat, has regenerative shields, and has more bulk to protect himself with. Obi-Wan has a cloth robe. Both have some precognition. I'd give the edge to Obi-Wan on agility because he's lighter and his sword is designed for a more elegant fighting style, but only barely (and it won't help him against the two-fisted strike Zealots hit with). Fenix has two blades to Obi-Wan's one. His blades are also fixed to his arms so while Obi-Wan can get disarmed in the fight (and it's shown to happen frequently enough to Jedi in-universe), Fenix cannot. The attachment also allows the use of Fenix's hands, giving him some unique combat options.

Obi-Wan has some interesting force options, he can probably force-jump above Fenix's reach, he can probably use TK to knock Fenix down or stop a bull-rush, and he can throw his lightsaber like a boomerang. He can maybe keep up/away by force-running. But unless he can do all that at once (not really supported from the movies, IMO) he'll get caught at some point and that will go poorly. Even if he had devoted his entire life to lightsaber combat, Fenix has trained for decades at minimum (SC Wiki again), and he is among the highest-ranking Zealots. He has probably trained and fought enemies in the field for centuries. Given the normal 'peace-keeper' nature of the Jedi, and the only relatively recent outbreak of war, Obi-Wan quite likely has less training than an unnamed Zealot.

Therefore, my money goes on the Zealot every time.

[Terralthra]

You realize Kenobi fought a being roughly 3m tall, made of metal (with all the robotic strength that implies), armed with four lightsabres, and won, right? At multiple times, he blocks robotic-strength attacks from anywhere from 2-4 lightsabres at once. While parrying 4 blades, he successfully removes two of Grievous' hands with riposte strikes and bind-releases.

That's just in the films. In the novels, Obi-Wan is referred to as not just "a master of Soresu [the defensive lightsabre style], but the master of Soresu." Fenix has been training for longer, yes, but he's going up against one of the best in the Order at the time, and the acknowledged best at defensive techniques.

I think the match is more even than you think.

[Simon_Jester]

Fenix is wearing power armor designed for melee psi-blade combat, has regenerative shields, and has more bulk to protect himself with. Obi-Wan has a cloth robe. Both have some precognition. I'd give the edge to Obi-Wan on agility because he's lighter and his sword is designed for a more elegant fighting style, but only barely (and it won't help him against the two-fisted strike Zealots hit with). Fenix has two blades to Obi-Wan's one. His blades are also fixed to his arms so while Obi-Wan can get disarmed in the fight (and it's shown to happen frequently enough to Jedi in-universe), Fenix cannot. The attachment also allows the use of Fenix's hands, giving him some unique combat options.

The flip side of this is that Obi-Wan is very, very good at defense. The novelization of Revenge of the Sith (still canon as I recall) goes into some detail on his fight with Grievous and portrays him blocking twelve or sixteen lightsaber strikes a second without undue difficulty. I would not be surprised if Obi-Wan was able to defend himself against Fenix in terms of pure swordsmanship. Obi-Wan in his prime was one of the finest swordsmen of a galaxy, whereas Fenix is merely the finest of a planet (a planet of, it must be admitted, truly great swordsmen).

I suspect that Fenix's physical advantages (including cybernetics and personal shields) will provide him with more ability to 'cheat' then Obi-Wan's Force powers. But Obi-Wan is still a credible threat and could win this one, even if the odds are against him.

Obi-Wan has some interesting force options, he can probably force-jump above Fenix's reach, he can probably use TK to knock Fenix down or stop a bull-rush, and he can throw his lightsaber like a boomerang. He can maybe keep up/away by force-running. But unless he can do all that at once (not really supported from the movies, IMO) he'll get caught at some point and that will go poorly. Even if he had devoted his entire life to lightsaber combat, Fenix has trained for decades at minimum (SC Wiki again), and he is among the highest-ranking Zealots. He has probably trained and fought enemies in the field for centuries. Given the normal 'peace-keeper' nature of the Jedi, and the only relatively recent outbreak of war, Obi-Wan quite likely has less training than an unnamed Zealot.

Therefore, my money goes on the Zealot every time.

I don't know. Firstly, much of a Zealot's training is probably not for lightsaber combat and the Protoss do not spend the majority of their time actually at war so far as we can tell. Whereas by Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan has spent the last four years in a major ground war, much of it up against hostile Force users (and cyborgs with lightsabers and electrostaves and so on). Also, the Force seems to provide more tactical guidance than whatever prescience the Protoss use, tending to offset the advantage of tactical experience.

You realize Kenobi fought a being roughly 3m tall, made of metal (with all the robotic strength that implies), armed with four lightsabres, and won, right? At multiple times, he blocks robotic-strength attacks from anywhere from 2-4 lightsabres at once. While parrying 4 blades, he successfully removes two of Grievous' hands with riposte strikes and bind-releases.

To be fair, Grievous's swordsmanship seems to be fairly mechanical. I suspect Fenix will be actually more dangerous- not as aggressive, better at avoiding a trap and less vulnerable to a riposte. But I think you're basically right that Obi-Wan's a very realistic threat to him.

[Balrog]

Jedi have used TK on droideka with their shields up. Specifically Obi-wan did it in the 3D Clone Wars cartoons, and the shields actually remained up as Obi-Wan rolled them into a ball and pushed them into other droids.

A) The psi-blades and light sabers block each other - otherwise why would Zor pit the units against each other?

WTF? But yes the lightsabers and psi-blades will block each other.

Fenix is wearing power armor designed for melee psi-blade combat, has regenerative shields, and has more bulk to protect himself with. Obi-Wan has a cloth robe. Both have some precognition. I'd give the edge to Obi-Wan on agility because he's lighter and his sword is designed for a more elegant fighting style, but only barely (and it won't help him against the two-fisted strike Zealots hit with). Fenix has two blades to Obi-Wan's one. His blades are also fixed to his arms so while Obi-Wan can get disarmed in the fight (and it's shown to happen frequently enough to Jedi in-universe), Fenix cannot. The attachment also allows the use of Fenix's hands, giving him some unique combat options.

Alternatively, the fact that Obi-Wan's weapon isn't permanently strapped to his forearm means he can wield it in ways which Fenix physically cannot.

[Lord Revan]

yeah you have to remember that there's a very good reason why blades strapped to the wrist didn't become commonplace during the middle ages and before what you gain in stability you generally loose in flexibility.

[Me2005]

The flip side of this is that Obi-Wan is very, very good at defense. ... I would not be surprised if Obi-Wan was able to defend himself against Fenix in terms of pure swordsmanship. Obi-Wan in his prime was one of the finest swordsmen of a galaxy, whereas Fenix is merely the finest of a planet (a planet of, it must be admitted, truly great swordsmen).

[I removed the Grievious fight reference; you yourself say his fighting style is fairly mechanical.]

I hadn't realized Obi-Wan was especially renowned for his defensive abilities. I still question if his defensive ability would be a match for Fenix's offensive abilities, or if he'd be able to endure the onslaught brought by a fully armed and armored Protoss. Most of the real threats Obi-Wan faced were human swordsmen fighting in a similar style. They weren't protected from strikes in any way - other than with their lightsabers - while Fenix is.

I suspect that Fenix's physical advantages (including cybernetics and personal shields) will provide him with more ability to 'cheat' then Obi-Wan's Force powers. But Obi-Wan is still a credible threat and could win this one, even if the odds are against him.


I don't know. Firstly, much of a Zealot's training is probably not for lightsaber combat and the Protoss do not spend the majority of their time actually at war so far as we can tell. Whereas by Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan has spent the last four years in a major ground war

Fenix is taken during the middle of the Zerg invasion of Aiur, so he's been actively involved in a major ground war as well.

Jedi have used TK on droideka with their shields up. Specifically Obi-wan did it in the 3D Clone Wars cartoons, and the shields actually remained up as Obi-Wan rolled them into a ball and pushed them into other droids.

A) The psi-blades and light sabers block each other - otherwise why would Zor pit the units against each other?

WTF? But yes the lightsabers and psi-blades will block each other.

LOL. I could've sworn I saw Zor's avatar in here somewhere. Sorry

Alternatively, the fact that Obi-Wan's weapon isn't permanently strapped to his forearm means he can wield it in ways which Fenix physically cannot.

That's true, and it'd be an advantage in a situation where Fenix only had one weapon, and possibly if it were two humans fighting instead of a human and an alien of a species who apparently use this type of blade well. Here, it means Fenix can grab Obi-Wan while also blocking and striking.

[Terralthra]

The flip side of this is that Obi-Wan is very, very good at defense. ... I would not be surprised if Obi-Wan was able to defend himself against Fenix in terms of pure swordsmanship. Obi-Wan in his prime was one of the finest swordsmen of a galaxy, whereas Fenix is merely the finest of a planet (a planet of, it must be admitted, truly great swordsmen).

[I removed the Grievious fight reference; you yourself say his fighting style is fairly mechanical.]

I hadn't realized Obi-Wan was especially renowned for his defensive abilities. I still question if his defensive ability would be a match for Fenix's offensive abilities, or if he'd be able to endure the onslaught brought by a fully armed and armored Protoss. Most of the real threats Obi-Wan faced were human swordsmen fighting in a similar style. They weren't protected from strikes in any way - other than with their lightsabers - while Fenix is.

Mechanical or not, Grievous killed dozens of other Jedi Knights and Masters. He's not a robot, he's a panhuman professional warrior, transplanted into a cyborg body with four arms and prehensile legs, and trained by a master duelist. Come on now.

Fenix has shields...but those shields are relatively weak, protecting against only a couple strikes before being totally drained. They're not "lol I win" buttons, any more than shields are in SW.

Alternatively, the fact that Obi-Wan's weapon isn't permanently strapped to his forearm means he can wield it in ways which Fenix physically cannot.

That's true, and it'd be an advantage in a situation where Fenix only had one weapon, and possibly if it were two humans fighting instead of a human and an alien of a species who apparently use this type of blade well. Here, it means Fenix can grab Obi-Wan while also blocking and striking.

Dude, there's a reason no army in the world has ever strapped blades to wrists as a key part of their doctrine. Being able to change the angle of attack at the wrist is a pretty key thing in swordfighting. In this case, you can't grab me by the wrists, even though your hands are empty, because if I parry your blade, I parry your whole fucking arm.

Also, a lightsabre is significantly longer than a psi-blade. Like, twice as long, at least, not even counting the range advantage of holding it vs. strapped to the wrist. That's a huge advantage.

[Lord Revan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't zealots be killed by Terran marines even outside of gameplay sure with zealot taking many marines with them but their shields don't make Zealots immune to Terran small arms fire.

[Me2005]

Mechanical or not, Grievous killed dozens of other Jedi Knights and Masters. He's not a robot, he's a panhuman professional warrior, transplanted into a cyborg body with four arms and prehensile legs, and trained by a master duelist. Come on now.

He killed them off-screen in the movies, he may not have defeated them in an level duel for all I know (I'm relying only on the movies, I haven't seen any of the TV shows). The SW site bio says "But he was also quick to run from a fight, a tactic that worked until one final meeting with Obi-Wan Kenobi." I've assumed he used hit-and run tatics on Jedi in pitched battles or ambushes.

Fenix has shields...but those shields are relatively weak, protecting against only a couple strikes before being totally drained. They're not "lol I win" buttons, any more than shields are in SW.

No, and I don't think I was implying they were. But what they are is another advantage Obi-Wan doesn't have. If they absorb 1-2 lightsaber strikes that aren't otherwise blocked, that's 1-2 strikes more survived by Fenix. If he's a good enough duelist to rarely need those hits, he can even use them as a tactical advantage and take a hit on purpose to open up a counter strike.

Dude, there's a reason no army in the world has ever strapped blades to wrists as a key part of their doctrine. Being able to change the angle of attack at the wrist is a pretty key thing in swordfighting. In this case, you can't grab me by the wrists, even though your hands are empty, because if I parry your blade, I parry your whole fucking arm.

For whatever reason, the Protoss use whole-arm blades extensively. They may have significantly more strength to throw around, such that they simply aren't parried by other fighters. Or they may be used to slicing straight through everything. The point is - they do use them effectively.

Also, a lightsabre is significantly longer than a psi-blade. Like, twice as long, at least, not even counting the range advantage of holding it vs. strapped to the wrist. That's a huge advantage.

Eh... Not so sure about that. Much of the artwork shows the blades being roughly half the height of the Zealot (~1.5m) . Even if it's less than half the Zealot's height, it's still about as long as a typical lightsaber, which appears to be no more than ~36-48" long (1-1.2m). The description seems to say the length changes based on the rage of the Zealot.


At best I'd call it a wash - Fenix has longer arms even if his blades are shorter.

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't zealots be killed by Terran marines even outside of gameplay sure with zealot taking many marines with them but their shields don't make Zealots immune to Terran small arms fire.

Yes, yes they can. Standard Zealots would be easy to kill with well-placed marines (on a cliff, out of reach), and I think 3 or more to 1 are a match in-game. This is a hero Zealot we're talking about, who could still be killed by larger numbers of swarmed marines or carefully positioned marines, but would take many with him in the kind of open-arena fight we're talking about. Jedi can also be taken down by overwhelming 'small arms' fire (and very nearly were entirely wiped out by ranged fire from massed enemies on the site of this very duel, were it not for the arrival of their own regulars with ranged weapons), and the StarCraft 'small arms' fire isn't really small arms - again per the SC wiki:

the [Terran Marine standard-issue] C-14 fires hypersonic 8 mm armor-piercing metal "spikes" which can penetrate up to two inches of steel plating.

The Impaler is fully automatic with a fire rate of 30 rounds per second, although fully automatic fire is discouraged under most circumstances.

Those marines are also wearing heavy power armor, akin to 40k Space Marine power armor and largely unlike anything used in SW.

[Terralthra]

Mechanical or not, Grievous killed dozens of other Jedi Knights and Masters. He's not a robot, he's a panhuman professional warrior, transplanted into a cyborg body with four arms and prehensile legs, and trained by a master duelist. Come on now.

He killed them off-screen in the movies, he may not have defeated them in an level duel for all I know (I'm relying only on the movies, I haven't seen any of the TV shows). The SW site bio says "But he was also quick to run from a fight, a tactic that worked until one final meeting with Obi-Wan Kenobi." I've assumed he used hit-and run tatics on Jedi in pitched battles or ambushes.

Some were ambushes, yes, but some were straight-up fights, including at least one where he fought 5 Jedi in a pitched battle and kills or incapacitates all of them.

Fenix has shields...but those shields are relatively weak, protecting against only a couple strikes before being totally drained. They're not "lol I win" buttons, any more than shields are in SW.

No, and I don't think I was implying they were. But what they are is another advantage Obi-Wan doesn't have. If they absorb 1-2 lightsaber strikes that aren't otherwise blocked, that's 1-2 strikes more survived by Fenix. If he's a good enough duelist to rarely need those hits, he can even use them as a tactical advantage and take a hit on purpose to open up a counter strike.

Kinda like Grievous lost two of his arms and was still able to fight onward? He still lost after that...

Dude, there's a reason no army in the world has ever strapped blades to wrists as a key part of their doctrine. Being able to change the angle of attack at the wrist is a pretty key thing in swordfighting. In this case, you can't grab me by the wrists, even though your hands are empty, because if I parry your blade, I parry your whole fucking arm.

For whatever reason, the Protoss use whole-arm blades extensively. They may have significantly more strength to throw around, such that they simply aren't parried by other fighters. Or they may be used to slicing straight through everything. The point is - they do use them effectively.

They use them, but that's not the same as "they're effective." Gameplay is designed to be balanced, but that doesn't mean gameplay designs are actually effective. As for their strength - yes, they may be stronger than a baseline human, but as noted, Obi-Wan blocks multiple cyborg-strength full-force strikes from Grievous without any significant issue.

Also, a lightsabre is significantly longer than a psi-blade. Like, twice as long, at least, not even counting the range advantage of holding it vs. strapped to the wrist. That's a huge advantage.

Eh... Not so sure about that. Much of the artwork shows the blades being roughly half the height of the Zealot (~1.5m) . Even if it's less than half the Zealot's height, it's still about as long as a typical lightsaber, which appears to be no more than ~36-48" long (1-1.2m). The description seems to say the length changes based on the rage of the Zealot.


At best I'd call it a wash - Fenix has longer arms even if his blades are shorter.

That may be the biggest psi-blade I've ever seen on a zealot. More typical is something like this:


And this one is Fenix in cutscene:


The blade may be a meter-ish long, but by the time it gets past his fingertips, half its length is covered.

I'm not calling it for Obi-Wan, or anything. I think it's actually a very fair fight. But it is, nonetheless, the sort of fair fight that Kenobi has engaged in, in a fairly close allegory, and won.

[Adam Reynolds]

Those marines are also wearing heavy power armor, akin to 40k Space Marine power armor and largely unlike anything used in SW.

That has nothing to do with the firepower of their weapons. Do starcraft terran rifles equal blasters in their observed firepower? Blasters can blow a .5 meter hole in duracrete(presumably a sort of advanced steel reinforced concrete)

Star Wars soldiers don't wear power armor because it would make you a larger target against their weapons, which generally have the firepower to blast through body armor.

Some were ambushes, yes, but some were straight-up fights, including at least one where he fought 5 Jedi in a pitched battle and kills or incapacitates all of them.

If you are referring to the 2004 Clone Wars series, it is no longer canon. In the 2008 series and ROTS, Grevious was much less effective. He only really succeeded against Jedi by relying on his soldiers and luck. But Obi-Wan was unusually effective against him. Several other Jedi lost fights to Grevious, including Ashoka and Master Koth, a former? member of the Jedi Council.

They use them, but that's not the same as "they're effective." Gameplay is designed to be balanced, but that doesn't mean gameplay designs are actually effective. As for their strength - yes, they may be stronger than a baseline human, but as noted, Obi-Wan blocks multiple cyborg-strength full-force strikes from Grievous without any significant issue.

Notice that Grevious casually dents his starfighter hull when attempting to hit Obi-Wan. And yet he had not trouble blocking lightsaber strikes from Grevious that presumably were delivered with the same level of force.

In any case, a lightsaber designed for dueling purposes will undoubtedly be more effective than one attached to the arms of the wielder.

[Simon_Jester]

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't zealots be killed by Terran marines even outside of gameplay sure with zealot taking many marines with them but their shields don't make Zealots immune to Terran small arms fire.

Since a Terran Marine's "small arms" are a fully automatic railgun that it may well require a power armored soldier to use effectively, I'm not sure that says bad things about the Protoss shields' durability.

Those marines are also wearing heavy power armor, akin to 40k Space Marine power armor and largely unlike anything used in SW.

That has nothing to do with the firepower of their weapons. Do starcraft terran rifles equal blasters in their observed firepower? Blasters can blow a .5 meter hole in duracrete(presumably a sort of advanced steel reinforced concrete)

A sustained burst from a Gauss rifle, given how the weapon is described (automatic railgun firing 8mm spikes, potentially of depleted uranium) ought to be at least broadly capable of punching large holes in reinforced concrete. On a per-shot basis I am sure Star Wars blasters are heavier, but the volume of fire represented by a sustained attack by Terran Marines is intense enough that I would expect Protoss personal shields to absorb at least a few blaster bolts.

[Me2005]

They use them, but that's not the same as "they're effective." Gameplay is designed to be balanced, but that doesn't mean gameplay designs are actually effective.

I'm not sure whether 'they're effective' in this situation, but I know that the Protoss know how to use them effectively. Perhaps to their maximum effectiveness, something that may or may not be better than lightsaber dueling.

As for their strength - yes, they may be stronger than a baseline human, but as noted, Obi-Wan blocks multiple cyborg-strength full-force strikes from Grievous without any significant issue.

I'm dubious whether Grevous is as strong as Fenix. He's power-armor equipped, not ill, and again from the SC wiki:

Even a handful of zealots can easily control an entire colony of lesser species, as they are capable of tearing through armored structures and vehicles alike. ...

And a bonus next sentence:

Because of their mastery of their emotions, zealots can fight longer, harder, and better than any adversary who would dare stand in their way.

Leads me to think the martial abilities of Obi-Wan and Fenix are similar, except that Fenix has trained and fought for a time longer than Obi-Wan has lived. Mastery over his emotions, in this case, also means mastery over his anger - which he can freely use without turning to the dark side, unlike Obi-Wan.

Through the path of the Khala, zealots learn to hone their innate battle rage to a fine edge, though they can invoke a near-berserker rage when in battle if need be

I'm not calling it for Obi-Wan, or anything. I think it's actually a very fair fight. But it is, nonetheless, the sort of fair fight that Kenobi has engaged in, in a fairly close allegory, and won.

I'm not sure the Grevious example is a close allegory. He's maybe the same size, but sickly, nowhere near as well trained, undisciplined, and less well-protected. His typical tactic (which he tries in that fight) is to flee. His best abilities are in grand strategy which is, to me, how it seems he had beaten so many Jedi before. Fenix is closer in ability to Obi-wan in every way that Grevious is not (perhaps even surpassing him in many aspects), but also has the strength and size of Grevious (if not greater).

Since a Terran Marine's "small arms" are a fully automatic railgun that it may well require a power armored soldier to use effectively...

From the wiki, they explicitly do.

A sustained burst from a Gauss rifle, given how the weapon is described (automatic railgun firing 8mm spikes, potentially of depleted uranium) ought to be at least broadly capable of punching large holes in reinforced concrete.

Yeah, they use those rifles to take down spacecraft and destroy buildings. I don't remember how much of that is gamification vs. cutscene/lore though. But from the way everything is described, punching holes in concrete should be relatively easy for a marine, which should mean that a Zealot can take several blaster volleys before loosing shields, and many more before being teleported to the medbay for dragoonification.

[Terralthra]

They use them, but that's not the same as "they're effective." Gameplay is designed to be balanced, but that doesn't mean gameplay designs are actually effective.

I'm not sure whether 'they're effective' in this situation, but I know that the Protoss know how to use them effectively. Perhaps to their maximum effectiveness, something that may or may not be better than lightsaber dueling.

Wrist-blades are not as effective as swords. This isn't really in dispute. You can know how to use a hammer that has two claw-sides and no flat head as effectively as it's possible to use one, but it's not as effective as a hammer with a flat head.

As for their strength - yes, they may be stronger than a baseline human, but as noted, Obi-Wan blocks multiple cyborg-strength full-force strikes from Grievous without any significant issue.

I'm dubious whether Grevous is as strong as Fenix. He's power-armor equipped, not ill, and again from the SC wiki:

Even a handful of zealots can easily control an entire colony of lesser species, as they are capable of tearing through armored structures and vehicles alike. ...

They can tear through armor and vehicles because their weapons "cut through any material, regardless of density," much like lightsabres. That doesn't indicate anything about strength. They're "power suits", but it doesn't mention servo-assisted striking in the game anywhere that I know. Even if it did, you can't point to power-assisted striking on a zealot without also noting that Grievous didn't just have power-assisted strikes, most of his body was mechanical. He dents starfighters with punches. Even if you don't count him because he's "ill", then you have to also explain the Magna-guards who are fully robotic, not cyborg, have full-force strikes that Obi-Wan not only blocks without apparent difficulty, but overpowers.

Because of their mastery of their emotions, zealots can fight longer, harder, and better than any adversary who would dare stand in their way.

Leads me to think the martial abilities of Obi-Wan and Fenix are similar, except that Fenix has trained and fought for a time longer than Obi-Wan has lived. Mastery over his emotions, in this case, also means mastery over his anger - which he can freely use without turning to the dark side, unlike Obi-Wan.

Through the path of the Khala, zealots learn to hone their innate battle rage to a fine edge, though they can invoke a near-berserker rage when in battle if need be

You say that like battle rage is a good thing. Good warriors over history have been cool, collected, professional. The "berserker" who waded into battle frenzy-mad with rage didn't ever really exist. From what I understand, the reason they're called "Zealots" is because they're fanatically devoted to self-control, because without that control, Protoss become filled with hatred and self-destructive. If Fenix is capable of controlling his emotions, great! That puts him on a level playing field with Kenobi, who has never, to my knowledge, come close to falling to the dark side.

I'm not calling it for Obi-Wan, or anything. I think it's actually a very fair fight. But it is, nonetheless, the sort of fair fight that Kenobi has engaged in, in a fairly close allegory, and won.

I'm not sure the Grevious example is a close allegory. He's maybe the same size, but sickly, nowhere near as well trained, undisciplined, and less well-protected. His typical tactic (which he tries in that fight) is to flee. His best abilities are in grand strategy which is, to me, how it seems he had beaten so many Jedi before. Fenix is closer in ability to Obi-wan in every way that Grevious is not (perhaps even surpassing him in many aspects), but also has the strength and size of Grevious (if not greater).

His "typical tactic"? Canonically, he runs away rather than lose, which is exactly the sort of tactical decision making you'd expect from a good warrior. Zealots don't because they're teleported back at the moment of death to be transplanted into Dragoons. Grievous hunts down and kills Jedi repeatedly, no matter what source you read. This is mentioned repeatedly in both Clone Wars series.