Pacific Rim- how to do it more efficiently?

[Q99]

Other thread got me thinking.

Ok, obviously giant robots require major setting contrivances to make a logical choice- even in addition to the existence of super-efficient giant robot technology that's fairly narrowly suited for giant robots.

I've heard a variety of alternatives in various places. Supertanks, supersubs, a couple varieties of minefield arguments.

But.....

Let's flip this around. The same arguments against giant robots really apply to giant monsters too, don't they? They're equally absurd on the face of it, no? They require incredible materials tech and energy storage tech, it's just that technology is in bone and blood rather than iron and reactors, woven together into an organism rather than a mecha.

Let's say you have the Precursor's incredibly advanced biotech, and the same portal mass-limit and schedule (i.e. instead of Knifehead, you can send one Knifehead's worth of stuff on the same day. Accelerating as the portal stabilizes at the same rate and yadda yadda), and the same intel limits (i.e. you learn about the defenses and such by encountering them).

How do you defeat the Earth, other than giant monsters?

[Jub]

I'd probably start by sending a team of scientists through first. Something small, by Kaiju standards, so you can send hundreds through per trip. Your goal with a scientist type Kaiju, for lack of a better term, would be making them seem non-threatening, making them durable enough that they can survive a hostile first contact, and giving them the tools to analyze earth's society. If this goes well your next wave would be more scientists along with some diplomats, this should gain humanities trust; as much as they ever could in a short time span at any rate.

Then once you have enough data you switch tactics and start to send much smaller things carrying biological weapons through. These could be something like fish that can metamorphose into something that looks enough like a common bird to go unnoticed. These 'birds' would then spread an airborne disease that infects a person, but displays no symptoms until a second activator plague comes along and basically turns on turbo ebola among the already infected. From there you basically just need to wait, and send in more flights of plague carriers, possibly carrying other diseases that can't be cured in anything even remotely similar to your first plague, until the world is weak enough to be taken.

From there send through whatever you like.

[Metahive]

I think they shouldn't even need to bother with sending any individuals through, just have whatever toxins that are contained within the Kaiju's blood seep through the rift until the oceans are nothing more than large pools of poison which will ruin and weaken human society sufficiently for an effortless takeover.

[Solauren]

Simple:
1 - First Kaiju covers the rift up with something to conceal it, but not inhibit other Kaiju coming through.
It will then stay in the ocean, avoiding contact, and just feeding. That will probably have long term effects on the food chain.

2 - As more Kaiju are sent through, they are too stay in the ocean as well.

3 - I've always assumed the events increased in frequency as the 'breach' stabilized. Once it's stabilized for three+ Kaiju at once, I probably have a small army of Kaiju hanging out in the Pacific Ocean. NOW have them attack, one at a time. Second Attack resumes where the first one fell. By this point, I should be able to keep up a steady stream of Kaiju that the population of Earth will have no time to adapt to or stop.

[Q99]

I think they shouldn't even need to bother with sending any individuals through, just have whatever toxins that are contained within the Kaiju's blood seep through the rift until the oceans are nothing more than large pools of poison which will ruin and weaken human society sufficiently for an effortless takeover.

Blue isn't good stuff, but against the size of an ocean, kaiju-masses of it will take a very, very long time to even be detectable.

Also, if the humans want to close it, a 'vent spewing poison' provides very little resistance to a closing attempt.

[Adam Reynolds]

Simple:
1 - First Kaiju covers the rift up with something to conceal it, but not inhibit other Kaiju coming through.
It will then stay in the ocean, avoiding contact, and just feeding. That will probably have long term effects on the food chain.

2 - As more Kaiju are sent through, they are too stay in the ocean as well.

3 - I've always assumed the events increased in frequency as the 'breach' stabilized. Once it's stabilized for three+ Kaiju at once, I probably have a small army of Kaiju hanging out in the Pacific Ocean. NOW have them attack, one at a time. Second Attack resumes where the first one fell. By this point, I should be able to keep up a steady stream of Kaiju that the population of Earth will have no time to adapt to or stop.

Weren't they able to determine the origin point by seismic activity? That would put a damper on your plan.

Besides this, in six days of rampage, only tens of thousands died. Kaiju aren't actually a very effective mechanism for killing people. A supervirus would indeed be a far better mechanism, especially one with a long incubation period before it goes active. It might not kill all of humanity, but it would come very close. It would certainly eliminate the possibility of any serious resistance for whatever followed the kaiju.

[bilateralrope]

Then once you have enough data you switch tactics and start to send much smaller things carrying biological weapons through.

That assumes that they will be able to learn enough about Earth biology that they can create those biological weapons without those weapons getting out of control and destroying whatever it is that makes Earth valuable to them.

1 - First Kaiju covers the rift up with something to conceal it, but not inhibit other Kaiju coming through.
It will then stay in the ocean, avoiding contact, and just feeding. That will probably have long term effects on the food chain.

That makes three assumptions:
- That the rift can be concealed without inhibiting Kaiju using it.

- The Kaiju can get enough food to sustain themselves for the duration. How much food would a lifeform of that size need ?
Could they even eat earth life ?
What happens if humans decide to try and limit their spread by denying them food ?

- Humans won't ruin the plan by going on the offensive with all the resources that they were forced to use on defence in the movie. Or by doing something unexpected because you don't have the Kaiju probing to see what humans were capable of.

[Jub]

That assumes that they will be able to learn enough about Earth biology that they can create those biological weapons without those weapons getting out of control and destroying whatever it is that makes Earth valuable to them.

The bioweapons would be a disease designed to only target humans. That way you limited it to spreading to humans and things that can catch the same diseases as humans. That's going to leave 99.9% of earth's biodiversity untouched.

If humans are the resource in question this strategy obviously fails, but we aren't given any reason to think that this is the case.

[Solauren]

1 - First Kaiju covers the rift up with something to conceal it, but not inhibit other Kaiju coming through.
It will then stay in the ocean, avoiding contact, and just feeding. That will probably have long term effects on the food chain.

That makes three assumptions:
- That the rift can be concealed without inhibiting Kaiju using it.

The Gypsy Dancer's fall with the Cat 5 Kaiju showed their was more then enough room for one to swim through at a slow speed, turn, and then swim away from it for a few hundred feet.

- The Kaiju can get enough food to sustain themselves for the duration. How much food would a lifeform of that size need ?
Could they even eat earth life ?
What happens if humans decide to try and limit their spread by denying them food ?

Considering humans can apparently 'make use' of Kaiju parts, and the entire idea of the invasion was that we made Earth a perfect habitat for the Kaiju masters, I think we can reasonably assume 'yes'.

And remember, I want the Kaiju to avoid contact. If one of them is spotted, I'm hoping humanity just assumes it's some deep sea species they haven't seen before. They have no reason to deliberately try to get rid of the kaiju's food source.

Besides, if they decide to screw with the Kaiju's feeding, well, they'll probably have to ruin the global food chain to do so.

- Humans won't ruin the plan by going on the offensive with all the resources that they were forced to use on defence in the movie. Or by doing something unexpected because you don't have the Kaiju probing to see what humans were capable of.

Ultimately, that doesn't matter. Without Kaiju assaults, they have no reason to develop DRIFT technology. Therefore, they'll never learn how to close the 'Breach', as they won't be able to drift with Kaiju brains. Let them go on the offensive. Short of multiple nuclear weapons (and in the movie, we saw a Kaiju take a Nuclear Weapon while in the ocean and then return to fighting the Jaegars) Humans military technology will have no effect on my Kaiju.

[Nephtys]

That's a fairly good point: Only the 'final boss' Kaiju, their largest type seen in what, like 10 years, was able to survive an underwater nuke. The others died.

So that means the most cost effective thing is to break out those old nuclear torpedos, and have attack subs pretty much annihilate them prior to landfall.

[Vendetta]

The bioweapons would be a disease designed to only target humans. That way you limited it to spreading to humans and things that can catch the same diseases as humans. That's going to leave 99.9% of earth's biodiversity untouched.

I'm not sure how much intel the kaiju's controllers have about whatever's on the other side of the rift. It would be hard for them to learn enough about human biology to create a targeted bioweapon with the clumsy tools they have available (ie: something that can be sent through the rift, survive the journey, survive the deep sea pressure and get anywhere useful).

Some kind of horrible disease is probably still in their interests, but it wouldn't be very targeted or controlled.

[Jub]

I'm not sure how much intel the kaiju's controllers have about whatever's on the other side of the rift. It would be hard for them to learn enough about human biology to create a targeted bioweapon with the clumsy tools they have available (ie: something that can be sent through the rift, survive the journey, survive the deep sea pressure and get anywhere useful).

Some kind of horrible disease is probably still in their interests, but it wouldn't be very targeted or controlled.

Biotech seems to be their thing, so I wouldn't count them out on creating a smart disease. As to how they get the data to make said disease, make a Kaiju that ferries the biologists and diplomats to the surface. This Kaiju just has to be strong enough to make a one-way trip to the surface and the scouts, I'm thinking an amphibious creature, dolphin sized, that can swim to shore on their own from there.

[biostem]

There was that one Kaiju that emitted an EMP. Since so much human technology depends upon electricity and computer, I'd create whatever the minimum possible size is for a flying Kaiju with said EMP device/organ. Keep manufacturing and sending them, until you have several hundred or thousand on the Earth-side of the portal. Once you have them in sufficient numbers, have them rush various city centers and knock out the infrastructure. Have them round up the populace and essentially hold them hostage - if the military makes an incursion, EMP down their vehicles and/or kill hostages until they back off, (I don't know if the aliens who created the Kaiju could speak Earth languages or create Kaiju that could).

[Q99]

I do like the idea of a first waves of scouts/'scientists,' who just go around and don't attack.

I also like the idea of flying-EMP ones.

Simple:
1 - First Kaiju covers the rift up with something to conceal it, but not inhibit other Kaiju coming through.
It will then stay in the ocean, avoiding contact, and just feeding. That will probably have long term effects on the food chain.

2 - As more Kaiju are sent through, they are too stay in the ocean as well.

3 - I've always assumed the events increased in frequency as the 'breach' stabilized. Once it's stabilized for three+ Kaiju at once, I probably have a small army of Kaiju hanging out in the Pacific Ocean. NOW have them attack, one at a time. Second Attack resumes where the first one fell. By this point, I should be able to keep up a steady stream of Kaiju that the population of Earth will have no time to adapt to or stop.

Hm, I wonder about endurance. There's some to eat down there, but the longest lived kaiju lasted a bit over a week, and the 'kaiju war' had 46 kaiju/breach events over the course of a decade. Early ones especially were fairly separate in time frame too, with only two during the second year.

Or what I'm saying, you'll have to probably make some sacrifices to make them last that long. Major fat stores perhaps.

So that means the most cost effective thing is to break out those old nuclear torpedos, and have attack subs pretty much annihilate them prior to landfall.

This is more about the precursor side, but our torpedoes are actually pretty darn slow next to a kaiju, and our fastest torpedoes, are short-ranged, and whether old and slow or supercavicating and fast, not designed for depth. So kaiju can travel around super-deep below engagement range for awhile.

The depth is a bit of a double-edged sword- note Jub including a 'carrier kaiju' to carry stuff to the surface, everything that goes through has to at least temporarily go through great pressure- but it offers defensive advantages.


Also, note that the final nuke was a 1.2 Megaton one. A big blast by nuke standards, the US doesn't currently use megaton range weapons. Word of writer, prequel comic, and background material has early kaiju taking between one and three smaller nukes to drop.

[Jub]

There was that one Kaiju that emitted an EMP. Since so much human technology depends upon electricity and computer, I'd create whatever the minimum possible size is for a flying Kaiju with said EMP device/organ. Keep manufacturing and sending them, until you have several hundred or thousand on the Earth-side of the portal. Once you have them in sufficient numbers, have them rush various city centers and knock out the infrastructure. Have them round up the populace and essentially hold them hostage - if the military makes an incursion, EMP down their vehicles and/or kill hostages until they back off, (I don't know if the aliens who created the Kaiju could speak Earth languages or create Kaiju that could).

Military tech tends to be reasonably well hardened against EMP...

[Jub]

This is more about the precursor side, but our torpedoes are actually pretty darn slow next to a kaiju, and our fastest torpedoes, are short-ranged, and whether old and slow or supercavicating and fast, not designed for depth. So kaiju can travel around super-deep below engagement range for awhile.

Super-cavitating torpedos are actually in the 11-15 kilometer range right out of the box with an average speed of 50 knots and a top speed of between 200 and 300 knots; 200 knots being the confirmed lower limit with other speeds speculated upon.

Also, note that the final nuke was a 1.2 Megaton one. A big blast by nuke standards, the US doesn't currently use megaton range weapons. Word of writer, prequel comic, and background material has early kaiju taking between one and three smaller nukes to drop.

I'm not sure that final nuke was actually 1.2 Megatons based on the on screen evidence. A real explosion would have created a bubble that expanded and collapsed multiple times before fading into a chaos of bubbles and debris a short time later. What we see doesn't look much like a real explosion at all so it makes actually calculation nigh impossible.

[Sea Skimmer]

Super-cavitating torpedos are actually in the 11-15 kilometer range right out of the box with an average speed of 50 knots and a top speed of between 200 and 300 knots; 200 knots being the confirmed lower limit with other speeds speculated upon.

The difficulty in making the gas bubble on those torpedoes would preclude the concept working at great depths. Its just going to collapse. All combustion powered torpedoes slow down with depth meanwhile, because the engine has to use more and more power to pump the exhaust overboard. Electric torpedoes suffer from this much less because they only need a small cooling water pump, and that's balanced by the ocean pressure at both ends, but electric torpedo performance is never going to be all that good. They'd be the way to go for very deep torpedoes.

Not like this would matter though since in real life what earth would do once it found the rift is sink rings of 100-1000 tons conventional explosive mines around it. At close range such a device can produce a more intensive blast then a decent nuclear bomb, and since punching Kaiju works absolutely no reason exists to think this wouldn't work to kill by concussion. The toxic hazard of the monsters was blatant nonsense; if unprotected humans can physically dig into the corpse then the kaiju guts on the bottom of the Pacific can't be any worse then the enormous amount of toxic waste, nuclear reactors and bulk nerve gas humanity already threw in the oceans. Currents don't mix much vertically. Even so the mines could be proximity fused such that they won't detonate at close range, so as not to breakup the monster corpse. The cost would be a joke compared to building Mechs or conventional forces.



If I were the aliens I think I'd focus on making Kaiju who know how to start fires, breathing fire being handy but hardly vital compared to torch making skills, and also fart mustard gas or something which is at least vaguely plausible in biology. The Pacific Rim humanity is so staggeringly incompetent that the only real problem with the Kaiju strategy is the utter lack of serious damage they inflict on anything. If they burned cities instead of trying to slowly stomp and bash them they'd cause vastly more damage. See WW2 bombing. What the stomping around would do is break all the water mains, negating modern firefighting advantages. So make the monster have big foot claws that will help it puncture and damage the ground as it rampages.

Doing anything vastly different would seem to be so speculative that I'd just point to 'why not nuke the humans' as the problem. Or surprise cruise missile attack ect...

[Q99]

We do know it pushed away a truly immense amount of water (the wall of water goes *well* past Gipsy) against all the pressure of the depths, and we didn't see the epicenter past the initial blast, only where Gipsy was (which was considerably distance away), until some time after. Smaller vacuum bubbles, other effects, a lot of them would be offscreen where we wouldn't see them.

[Jub]

The difficulty in making the gas bubble on those torpedoes would preclude the concept working at great depths. Its just going to collapse. All combustion powered torpedoes slow down with depth meanwhile, because the engine has to use more and more power to pump the exhaust overboard. Electric torpedoes suffer from this much less because they only need a small cooling water pump, and that's balanced by the ocean pressure at both ends, but electric torpedo performance is never going to be all that good. They'd be the way to go for very deep torpedoes.

My idea for torpedos designed for those depths would be a dual-stage design. A larger shell with an electric drive for long distance transport. This stage would be using 3d storage lithium-ion batteries; I figure those have a chance of maturing over the course of the next few years. The fast stage would be short range and would use a plasma sheath to create the gas pocket. Assuming the technology for jaeger reactors scales down that would be the power source, if not we'd have to start getting very creative in our search for a power source.

Your plan sounds a lot like the one I had in the other thread. Only mine had a heavy plug over the breech and used nuclear mines as the first stage of defense. Submarines were the next line, planes the next, and shore-based missiles would be beyond that. I figured that any real life military would go with a multilayered defense.

[biostem]

There was that one Kaiju that emitted an EMP. Since so much human technology depends upon electricity and computer, I'd create whatever the minimum possible size is for a flying Kaiju with said EMP device/organ. Keep manufacturing and sending them, until you have several hundred or thousand on the Earth-side of the portal. Once you have them in sufficient numbers, have them rush various city centers and knock out the infrastructure. Have them round up the populace and essentially hold them hostage - if the military makes an incursion, EMP down their vehicles and/or kill hostages until they back off, (I don't know if the aliens who created the Kaiju could speak Earth languages or create Kaiju that could).

Military tech tends to be reasonably well hardened against EMP...

I rewatched Pacific Rim last night - apparently, at least in the world the movie is set in, that isn't the case... it EMP not only knocked out Striker Eureka, but it extended to and took out the Shatterdome, which was a military installation. Of course, depending upon the minimum size of these smaller Kaiju I proposed, if they are vulnerable to small arms, then your point may still apply - we didn't really see much in the way of "regular" military forces in the movie, anyway...

[Jub]

I rewatched Pacific Rim last night - apparently, at least in the world the movie is set in, that isn't the case... it EMP not only knocked out Striker Eureka, but it extended to and took out the Shatterdome, which was a military installation. Of course, depending upon the minimum size of these smaller Kaiju I proposed, if they are vulnerable to small arms, then your point may still apply - we didn't really see much in the way of "regular" military forces in the movie, anyway...

Yes, but if the question is how to do things better you can ignore the failure of the PacRim forces and assume properly built and designed hardware.

[JI_Joe84]

Didn't the jipsy danger guy say the nukes just bounced off the portal mouth? Why not just pour concrete over it? It might take a special formula and huge sums of it but hey next time a kiju tries to go through, splat! The sismo's should pic that up for a nice gigle amongst the humans.

[Sea Skimmer]

My idea for torpedos designed for those depths would be a dual-stage design. A larger shell with an electric drive for long distance transport.

Why bother? The distance isn't an issue compared to modern torpedo ranges, the depth alone is. Its not like we can't have surface warships and aircraft circling the place constantly. Submarines would be handy for periods of bad weather but otherwise I would keep them away so everything underwater is a free fire zone.

This stage would be using 3d storage lithium-ion batteries; I figure those have a chance of maturing over the course of the next few years.

Few decades is probably a lot more like it for one that not only works but can withstand the shock damage of a large underwater explosion caused by another torpedo. A bunch of nanotech batteries are in the works but like so much nanotech means to produce them on a reliable basis are extremely lacking. Also militarily relevant information is lacking, such as what the voltage drop off would be for such a design.

The fast stage would be short range and would use a plasma sheath to create the gas pocket.

The amount of power and space you would need to implement such an idea would be absurd. Even if such an thing could work, which seems unlikely, it would undoubtedly be cheaper to simply build a bigger version of the CAPTOR mine and dangle it from a surface ship on a cable. Remember this is not fighting a peer enemy, its fighting a big monster with an animal brain. Not even a smart animal brain either from what we see in the movie. Heck the US already spent some money designing a far more advanced version of that concept called Sea Predator, which was to be all but a miniature submarine armed with a number of small torpedoes, relocating itself on command and then engaging anything that wandered past with one or more weapons. Iraq war stole the funds for serious development but the idea was sound, and entirely adaptable to deep water.

Assuming the technology for jaeger reactors scales down that would be the power source, if not we'd have to start getting very creative in our search for a power source.

Why care or bother? A supercavitating torpedo has no guidance. It is by definition blind to sonar and in any functional sense its also going to be blind with LIDAR which are the only two plausible guidance modes for a high speed torpedo. Since the only plausible use for the speed in this role would be a tail chase, and tail chases with no guidance don't work, what is the point? Even if the target is faster then the torpedo it's a monster, not an intelligent enemy or one with air support. Active sonar will track it easily and it will have little ability to comprehend how it is under attack vs trillions of dollars worth of earth weapons. Drop torpedoes on all sides.

Your plan sounds a lot like the one I had in the other thread. Only mine had a heavy plug over the breech and used nuclear mines as the first stage of defense.

If a nuclear mine was going to yield a lot more then a reasonable conventional mine could it'd probably be at risk of damaging your plug. It would be better to keep any nuclear weapons well away from any such plug. Of course the Pacific is more then huge enough to have space for this. Also keep the subs away and covering critical avenues of approach to cities, they'd suffer enormously from nuke blasts and really not work out much better then surface ships that can carry heavier armaments except in the worst weather. If we assume a typical 17,000ft Pacific depth the advantage of the sub being perhaps 2,000ft down isn't that much, compared to the ability to easily retrofit an amphibious transport ship to launch 60in diameter super torpedoes out the well deck, or build numerous cable equipped ships to dangle near neutral bouyancy sleds equipped with sonar and torpedoes at say 10,000ft depth. Or many other options that would not work against a peer enemy, but certainly would here.

Nukes should really only need be a last resort, or the easy option.

Anyway trying to sink a giant plug on top of the breach would be incredibly difficult. Something that would have to be a very long term project at least, because of how hard it would be to control while sinking. Even in a universe where you could build giant mecha well, you might need to build giant mecha just to help position the damn thing.

Submarines were the next line, planes the next, and shore-based missiles would be beyond that. I figured that any real life military would go with a multilayered defense.

Submarines near the nuclear mine ring? Not the best plan around. Since modern subs are only rated for around 2,000ft max their main value would be as remote sensors, until seabed arrays could be deployed, though tracking Kaiju would not be very hard with existing Pacific sonar arrays. Anything that big and badly shaped is going to make a huge amount of noise trying to move quickly. Surface ships have much better endurance then subs too, except their sonar may become ineffective in heavy storms. But they'd still be able to communicate with seabed arrays and launch torpedoes.

As far as inshore defenses go, deploy more big conventional mines, and keep transport aircraft on hand with MOAB like weapons, if the monster can withstand those scoring direct hits I'm not so sure a supersonic missile would work either. Or at least, it'd certainly be cheaper to just build a bigger MOAB and design it as a shaped charge. Sprint like defenses are kind of an ultimate solution to most Sci Fi problems, but unnecessary here.

The pollution could matter the hell less. I love how many people try to defend the damn movie on that, but in IN UNIVERSE its a major plot point that the leadership of earth's defenses are manifestly incompetent to a mind boggling degree such that they would decommission the Jaeger program before validating that the batshit insane Pacific Wall (the monsters don't swim into the Atlantic/India how?) actually worked. Which it didn't at all. Sure lots of movies involve absurd amounts of stupid, but usually they don't call themselves out on it to that degree! Never mind all the Jaeger weapons which invalidate the 'no wounding' premise anyway.

Anyway, another thought on making the monsters more effective, drawing from some of my own old sci fi ideas, make them have some kind of nodes which have acid/base explosive glands such that they end up exploding when hit by the Jaeger. And make this be a hollow charge effect, which should be simpler then the first part.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Instead of trying to aim nuclear torpedoes that deep, why not use nuclear depth charges instead? Isn't that what those were built for? Ok I doubt any were built to reach 17,000 feet in depth but it seems like a better idea that trying to use torpedoes for it.

Or, hell, build something like the Trieste and stick a bigass nuke in it.

[Sea Skimmer]

Didn't the jipsy danger guy say the nukes just bounced off the portal mouth? Why not just pour concrete over it? It might take a special formula and huge sums of it but hey next time a kiju tries to go through, splat! The sismo's should pic that up for a nice gigle amongst the humans.

The portal appeared to be actively expelling material or some kind of 'energy' and certainly changes size so it seems unlikely that concrete simply poured on top would stay in place. Absurdly enough concrete might simply entomb that effect, and certainly be nothing like what the Pacific Wall would take to build, but it'd take so long to emplace the work might simply keep being smashed each time a monster pops out. Given that it was only a few hundred meters across building a supertanker sized caisson out of metal and concrete, sinking it into place, and then filling the voids would be the way to go. It'd just be the sinking and emplacing part that would be really annoying. Once one caisson was down others could be progressively sunk on top and around it.

By the time that's done hopefully we'd have perfected deep sea underwater dredge technology, some of which already exists for mining on a small scale, and use that to just begin burying the entire site under enormous masses of seabed material.

But the aliens might just be able to move the rift location, so I'd discount this as a general defense. On the other hand the aliens probably do have some kind of limitation on where they can open the rifts, otherwise if they wanted to be more effective per the thread they'd totally have wanted to open it in the middle of central Europe or China, for maximum early economic damage. Or move it for every single monster, that would be ideal by far.