Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
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Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
Unless you've been living under a rock, most of you know that the 1953 movie version of War of the Worlds is considered to be one of the greatest Science Fiction movies of all time. The acting is excellent and the effects were state of the art for the time (even by today's standards they hold up quite well). The Martian machines are portrayed slightly differently than in other versions. They are not physical tripods, instead they hover on forcefield "legs".
Also, in another variation from the book, they have deflector shields. The writers understood quite well that military technology of the 1950's would make short work of the machines described by HG Wells, so the George Pal version was upgraded to be invulnerable to Korean War era weapons.
They also have the classic heat-ray and a disintegration beam, both of which easily penetrate armored vehicles and can vaporize humans almost instantly.
These machines prove to be indestructible. They easily withstand massive conventional attacks by military forces around the world, and even survive getting hit by a ~200 kiloton atomic bomb. Naturally, the Martians are able to run amok and bring us to the brink of extinction before they are killed by our native diseases. But since I was a kid, I always wondered...were the Martians really invincible? Or were the humans just not using the correct tactics?
Now naturally, there would be no defense we could have against their weapons. Even heavy tanks melted in seconds when confronted by the heat ray. But if we had been able to penetrate their shield, we could have won. We would have suffered heavy losses to be sure, but three machines vs a whole division of Marines? They just wouldn't have the numbers to win. It'd be a battle of attrition in our favor. But we'd have to penetrate their shields first. How could we do that?
Well first we need to quantify how powerful their shields are. Unfortunately, there is no way to easily do this. Unlike in Star Wars / Star Trek where we have numbers in tech manuals or we can use visuals on screen to estimate weapon strength (and thus shield strength if they can resist those weapons), there's very little on screen in War of the Worlds that we can actually use. We know that tank shells and field rocket systems simply bounce off, so that's a good start. But we never see anything bigger be used. Would the shields have been able to be penetrated by something like a battleship shell? We never actually see the Navy engage the Martians that landed at Huntington Beach, and all they get is a passing mention that there are some Martians there.
What about bombs? We know the Air Force launched a bomber attack on the Martians but again, we never actually see it happen. What size bombs were used? Were there any direct hits or were they all shrapnel / concussive hits? We know that if a tank shell can bounce off, then maybe ONLY a direct hit from a bomb the size of a tallboy would do any damage. But again, we never see it.
Finally, an atomic bomb. Sadly, again we don't see much of this. We know a Flying Wing bomber dropped a fission weapon of a roughly ~200kt yield (based on dialogue). We know they targeted a large group of machines outside of Los Angeles, but that's all. We don't know how close the bomb was when it detonated...bombers of that era were still very inaccurate (which is why they made nukes much bigger than we do today, because they had a higher probability of missing). So it could have been a direct hit on a machine, or it could have been a mile or two away, which would have lessened the damage considerably.
In short, we don't know what it takes to penetrate the shields. We don't ever actually see anything bigger than a tank shell or a rocket hitting the shields, so we don't know if a direct hit from a large bomb, battleship shell, or a nuke would penetrate or not. We can reasonably assume that there were some direct hits but we don't know anything for sure. So we have to assume that nothing we can throw at the shields would get through. But perhaps they have a weakness?
Look again at the shields:
They are open at the bottom. When the shields flare up due to weapon impacts, they are open at the bottom. There is no sign of anything stopping an attack from underneath the machine. Furthermore, as the machines move, the shields flow around the plants and rocks. They don't carve a path through the vegetation. That right there could be an avenue for attack.
Suppose a large bomb was buried in the path of the machine and detonated as it walked overhead? Or a "suicide squad" of soldiers armed with bazookas laying in camouflage or in a pit? We don't know how strong their hull armor is, but Dr. Forrester was able to chop through one of their periscopes with a fire axe so their metals can't be completely invincible. Also in the later TV series from the 80's, the machines are able to be blown up with C-4 planted inside them.
So despite their power, it's quite possible that the Martians could have been defeated by laying traps in their paths. They didn't move very fast so this could have been fairly easy.
Thoughts? Is there a way to quantify the shield strength that I have overlooked? Would laying traps in front of the machines be successful?
Also, in another variation from the book, they have deflector shields. The writers understood quite well that military technology of the 1950's would make short work of the machines described by HG Wells, so the George Pal version was upgraded to be invulnerable to Korean War era weapons.
They also have the classic heat-ray and a disintegration beam, both of which easily penetrate armored vehicles and can vaporize humans almost instantly.
These machines prove to be indestructible. They easily withstand massive conventional attacks by military forces around the world, and even survive getting hit by a ~200 kiloton atomic bomb. Naturally, the Martians are able to run amok and bring us to the brink of extinction before they are killed by our native diseases. But since I was a kid, I always wondered...were the Martians really invincible? Or were the humans just not using the correct tactics?
Now naturally, there would be no defense we could have against their weapons. Even heavy tanks melted in seconds when confronted by the heat ray. But if we had been able to penetrate their shield, we could have won. We would have suffered heavy losses to be sure, but three machines vs a whole division of Marines? They just wouldn't have the numbers to win. It'd be a battle of attrition in our favor. But we'd have to penetrate their shields first. How could we do that?
Well first we need to quantify how powerful their shields are. Unfortunately, there is no way to easily do this. Unlike in Star Wars / Star Trek where we have numbers in tech manuals or we can use visuals on screen to estimate weapon strength (and thus shield strength if they can resist those weapons), there's very little on screen in War of the Worlds that we can actually use. We know that tank shells and field rocket systems simply bounce off, so that's a good start. But we never see anything bigger be used. Would the shields have been able to be penetrated by something like a battleship shell? We never actually see the Navy engage the Martians that landed at Huntington Beach, and all they get is a passing mention that there are some Martians there.
What about bombs? We know the Air Force launched a bomber attack on the Martians but again, we never actually see it happen. What size bombs were used? Were there any direct hits or were they all shrapnel / concussive hits? We know that if a tank shell can bounce off, then maybe ONLY a direct hit from a bomb the size of a tallboy would do any damage. But again, we never see it.
Finally, an atomic bomb. Sadly, again we don't see much of this. We know a Flying Wing bomber dropped a fission weapon of a roughly ~200kt yield (based on dialogue). We know they targeted a large group of machines outside of Los Angeles, but that's all. We don't know how close the bomb was when it detonated...bombers of that era were still very inaccurate (which is why they made nukes much bigger than we do today, because they had a higher probability of missing). So it could have been a direct hit on a machine, or it could have been a mile or two away, which would have lessened the damage considerably.
In short, we don't know what it takes to penetrate the shields. We don't ever actually see anything bigger than a tank shell or a rocket hitting the shields, so we don't know if a direct hit from a large bomb, battleship shell, or a nuke would penetrate or not. We can reasonably assume that there were some direct hits but we don't know anything for sure. So we have to assume that nothing we can throw at the shields would get through. But perhaps they have a weakness?
Look again at the shields:
They are open at the bottom. When the shields flare up due to weapon impacts, they are open at the bottom. There is no sign of anything stopping an attack from underneath the machine. Furthermore, as the machines move, the shields flow around the plants and rocks. They don't carve a path through the vegetation. That right there could be an avenue for attack.
Suppose a large bomb was buried in the path of the machine and detonated as it walked overhead? Or a "suicide squad" of soldiers armed with bazookas laying in camouflage or in a pit? We don't know how strong their hull armor is, but Dr. Forrester was able to chop through one of their periscopes with a fire axe so their metals can't be completely invincible. Also in the later TV series from the 80's, the machines are able to be blown up with C-4 planted inside them.
So despite their power, it's quite possible that the Martians could have been defeated by laying traps in their paths. They didn't move very fast so this could have been fairly easy.
Thoughts? Is there a way to quantify the shield strength that I have overlooked? Would laying traps in front of the machines be successful?
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
The success of traps in their path would be subject to whether or not the Martians sensors could detect them.
If all it takes is one Marine lying in wait to shift the camo net over the squad to alert the "tripod" to their presence, they're stew before his sergeant can reprimand him.
If the tripods have some way of picking up a nuclear/conventional weapon's concealed presence, same thing: they don't cross it, they destroy it.
Sadly, we know about as much about their sensors as we do about their shields.
The shields touching the ground and flowing over it suggests there might be an electo-magnetic exploit. It's been a while, but the tripods made a point of zapping high-tension wires and towers, right? Could it be that the EM field of the towers would have compromised their shields? Would an inactive grid in their path, activated (charged) as they crossed it short their shields and leave them vulnerable to conventional weapons?
Maybe even a wire-guided missile (grounded? I honestly don't know) might pass through the shield.
If all it takes is one Marine lying in wait to shift the camo net over the squad to alert the "tripod" to their presence, they're stew before his sergeant can reprimand him.
If the tripods have some way of picking up a nuclear/conventional weapon's concealed presence, same thing: they don't cross it, they destroy it.
Sadly, we know about as much about their sensors as we do about their shields.
The shields touching the ground and flowing over it suggests there might be an electo-magnetic exploit. It's been a while, but the tripods made a point of zapping high-tension wires and towers, right? Could it be that the EM field of the towers would have compromised their shields? Would an inactive grid in their path, activated (charged) as they crossed it short their shields and leave them vulnerable to conventional weapons?
Maybe even a wire-guided missile (grounded? I honestly don't know) might pass through the shield.
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Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
I was thinking the exact same thing. Put a large frag bomb under where the machines are being massed and set them off once they're over them.
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Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
Oh it would be almost certain death if there were humans laying in wait. Even if they succeed in killing the first machine, you have the wreckage falling down on top of you and since the machines travel in groups, you have it's two very pissed off buddies right behind it. Remote-triggered bombs would be much better.The success of traps in their path would be subject to whether or not the Martians sensors could detect them.
If all it takes is one Marine lying in wait to shift the camo net over the squad to alert the "tripod" to their presence, they're stew before his sergeant can reprimand him.
If the tripods have some way of picking up a nuclear/conventional weapon's concealed presence, same thing: they don't cross it, they destroy it.
They don't appear to be able to penetrate any significant distance into the ground, because Forrester and Sylvia were able to hide in a ditch very close to the machines after their airplane crashed. It's possible they rely on visual sensors only, since they needed the optical periscope to investigate the farmhouse, and they didn't even go on alert (with the rapid hissing and ticking) until the Marines surrounding them opened fire. This indicates to me at least that darkness, obstacles, and camouflage could be enough to hide from them under normal conditions.Sadly, we know about as much about their sensors as we do about their shields.
That's a neat idea, I never thought of that. Shorting out the shields temporarily so you can lob a few artillery rounds at the machine. If it truly is an Electromagnetic field then that could very well work. Although it does normally touch the ground as the machine moves so maybe they thought of that already....The shields touching the ground and flowing over it suggests there might be an electo-magnetic exploit. It's been a while, but the tripods made a point of zapping high-tension wires and towers, right? Could it be that the EM field of the towers would have compromised their shields? Would an inactive grid in their path, activated (charged) as they crossed it short their shields and leave them vulnerable to conventional weapons?
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
The fact that their shields allow trees/plants/rocks to pass through suggests the shields are limited; it may simply be a matter of being grounded (or that the FX guys didn't want to have to push over/crush objects on the set that would have been steam-rollered by the tripods.)
Planted charges are a sound idea, provided they were either shaped charges (pointed up into the tripods' bellies), or pop-up charges (to get closer to the hull before detonating.)
The largest issue is predicting the tripods' path with any accuracy, and placing such charges before the tripods approach line-of-sight to your efforts. Though I suppose you could try to "draw them into a trap" of a prepared minefield.
But we would also have to then contend with the effect the tripod "force-field legs" (pressor beams?) would have on such explosions: would they deflect shrapnel or concussive force from reaching the hull? How fragile are the emitters? If the tech is like their shields, they may be as resilient as those.
Planted charges are a sound idea, provided they were either shaped charges (pointed up into the tripods' bellies), or pop-up charges (to get closer to the hull before detonating.)
The largest issue is predicting the tripods' path with any accuracy, and placing such charges before the tripods approach line-of-sight to your efforts. Though I suppose you could try to "draw them into a trap" of a prepared minefield.
But we would also have to then contend with the effect the tripod "force-field legs" (pressor beams?) would have on such explosions: would they deflect shrapnel or concussive force from reaching the hull? How fragile are the emitters? If the tech is like their shields, they may be as resilient as those.
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.
Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
Well the "legs" are actually quite "leg-like" in that they are cylindrical beams that hold the machine up. It's not like a full anti-gravity field, they're quite literally invisible legs. There are scenes where you see the effect the legs have on the ground, they cause sparking and sputtering but not much else. They might hold down an explosion that occurred right under the point the beam hit the ground but there's plenty of open empty space between them.
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Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
If the shields are open at the bottom... nuclear mines. The answer is nuclear mines.
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Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
Again, the basic problem with this strategy is that the tripods are mobile and don't have to walk over any given bit of terrain- and a nuclear mine detonated any significant distance away from them won't work any more than dropping atomic bombs from aircraft did.
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Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
I wonder if it's a sort of Dune-like speed issue. Could you have a couple of Jeeps quickly drive past and lash a cable across the ships? Were they ever demonstrated to be able to literally plow through very massive objects? Perhaps you could try dragging them down with enough mass.
Their tracking speed didn't seem that impressive, either - we saw them fire on things like tanks and heavily armored vehicles, but I don't recall them shooting down a speeding car or plane; Perhaps that's a tactic that we could employ.
Their tracking speed didn't seem that impressive, either - we saw them fire on things like tanks and heavily armored vehicles, but I don't recall them shooting down a speeding car or plane; Perhaps that's a tactic that we could employ.
Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
Could the shields be permeable to gases? Since they clearly are close enough to us biochemically for viruses to infect, Chemical or Biological weapons may be the way to go. What would the Americans have had laying around in the 50s?
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Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
Not a lot of recent chemical weapons stocks, but possibly some biological weapons actually... I think.
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Re: Winning the War of the Worlds (1953 George Pal version)
They're never seen plowing through massive objects. They always seemed to avoid buildings and obstacles.biostem wrote:I wonder if it's a sort of Dune-like speed issue. Could you have a couple of Jeeps quickly drive past and lash a cable across the ships? Were they ever demonstrated to be able to literally plow through very massive objects? Perhaps you could try dragging them down with enough mass.
Their tracking speed didn't seem that impressive, either - we saw them fire on things like tanks and heavily armored vehicles, but I don't recall them shooting down a speeding car or plane; Perhaps that's a tactic that we could employ.
We do hear of them shooting down the first scout plane that dropped a flare on them, then shooting down the jets sent to bomb them. But at altitude, the angular momentum is rather small so they could probably target them easily enough. It's true though that we don't see how quickly they can actually track stuff moving quickly in close proximity.
The shields do appear to be permeable to normal air, so a bioweapon like the flu could work without killing too many of us. As far as gas, whether or not we had any stockpiles at the ready, we could probably whip up decent amounts of Mustard, Sarin or Vx (dunno if it had been invented by 1953 yet). The big question is if the machines are airtight or not. In both the original book and in the movie, the Martians left their machines on occasion. In the book, they explicitly used humans for food...which would allow them to become infected. In the movie, it's just implied...so we don't know if the Martians got infected in the same way or if the machines simply lack filtration systems.Simon_Jester wrote:Not a lot of recent chemical weapons stocks, but possibly some biological weapons actually... I think.
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