(RAR) Unnamed Ultramarine VS M1A1 Abrams (40K + Real Life)

[Archinist]

Flat terrain; 500m apart. M1A1 sabots.

[Darth Tanner]

I almost miss the backstory now about how a tech priest was having a holiday with demons and forgot to pack enough fuel so invented a giant triangle dinorsaur that sprayed the police with genocide spray and tricked them into calling for a tank to fight against a random blue guy but used a 30MW heater in a small wood cabin...

Back to the original idea it will depend highly on the marines equipment... a standard bolter is likely not a significant threat to the tank whereas plasma weapons will be a major threat at close range. The main strategy I see for the marine considering the lack of terrain is to immediately close the distance and mount the tank allowing careful placement of rounds through vital equipment and also leaving the firing arcs of all the tanks weapons. Obviously if the marine has any sort of plasma, missile or jetpack equipment he wins.

The tank gets a single good shot on the marine while he charges with the main gun, it will take him 20 odd second to close the distance at marine speeds of 50mph and get ontop of the tank at which point its game over as the tank is on its own so can no longer engage him... so the tank only really has 1 or 2 shots, with one of them at point blank to hit the marine who although a good target will be far more maneuvable than armoured veihcels, I wait to here if anyone knows how accurately the main gun could be brought to bare on someone sprinting like that, it has the accuracy but in such a short time span? The tank however also has upto 4 heavy machine guns to hose him down with though although marine armour is highly resistant to it its going to either riddle him with holes or slow him down enough to get hit by the main gun or run over.

Option B is the tank speeds away from the Marine who although slightly faster gives the tank much more time to put round into him before he can close.

Tank wins... except by the grace of the God Emperor the tank strangely misses with its main gun on the charge.

[Simon_Jester]

May depend on relative levels of killer intent. If the Ultrasmurf begins sprinting toward the tank while the tank crew is still trying to figure out what that eight-foot robotic blue blur is, the Ultrasmurf has a much higher chance of survival. Tank guns are accurate and tank gunners are presumably trained to lead moving targets, but that's not the same as being able to hit a zig-zagging target.

Conversely, if the Ultrasmurf needs ten or twenty seconds to orient himself, realize what's going on, and decide to attack the 'enemy' tank, while said tank is already dialed in to shoot him, he's in trouble. Five hundred meters is pretty close to point blank range for an Abrams, which amounts to "can't miss" distance against a stationary standing target.

[Archinist]

The tank is faster than the marine.

The tank could speed backwards while firing at the marine. Why do you think the tank has to be absolutely still when firing back? Modern tanks are supposed to be able to accurately fire while on the move.

The turrets will not even but a dent in the marine's armor.

Also, if it is unfair for the tank, let's say it has a trophy APS with 50 rounds and a ROB makes sure it is effective against bolter shells.

The marine also has a 40K RPG with ten rockets.

The tank could probably take multiple, hits from a plasma cannon. At best it might melt the treads, after all it is just a great ball of heated gas.

Why would the marine be zig zagging? He can see it's an old tank and therefore will do little damage. Plus the zigzagging action would slow down the marine immensely and the crew could probably adapt to the movement.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm just going to address one point, now that you are in the business of having points.

Modern armor piercing ammunition from tank guns can go through multiple feet of steel plate, or many more feet of reinforced concrete. While Space Marine armor is both futuristic and very strong, there is no evidence that it can reliably withstand that kind of weaponry.

[Archinist]

I'm just going to address one point, now that you are in the business of having points.

Modern armor piercing ammunition from tank guns can go through multiple feet of steel plate, or many more feet of reinforced concrete. While Space Marine armor is both futuristic and very strong, there is no evidence that it can reliably withstand that kind of weaponry.

Sure there is. Space Marine armor is basically immune to lasgun fire which can blow men to smithereens and blast great holes in concrete, and are also mostly immune to stubber gunfire, which is probably around the same strength as the Abrams's gun turrets.

[Darth Tanner]

The tank is faster than the marine.

Actually its not depending on what speed you use for marines, the tank can manage 45mph at max but a marine can sprint atleast 50mph in some sources, you only say the terrain is flat with no mention of firmness so that could go anyway in impacting the tank more so than the marine or viceversa.

Why do you think the tank has to be absolutely still when firing back?

That was my entire option B but the concept of running away from a single infantry soldier is likely not going to occur to the tank crew, neither is the issue they are likely to be starting facing the marine so would not have time to turn, shooting forward offers them no advantage unless they are going to try and run him over.. a risky strategy considering he would have the reflexes to leap onto the tank. Accuracy is also massively reduced by moving.

The turrets will not even but a dent in the marine's armor.

The main gun will reduce a marine to a smudge, the machine guns are likely equivelent to heavy stubber in game, most of which pose a threat to marines, especialyl with no cover. I suppose one concern is with SABOT the round will simply overpenetrate and perhaps simply take an arm off, leaving the marine with anothe arm to kill the tank once he has closed.

The tank could probably take multiple, hits from a plasma cannon. At best it might melt the treads, after all it is just a great ball of heated gas.

That is specifically designed as a the uber anti armor weapon of the age. Targeting the tracks would be a waste when you could punch through the main hull with a close range shot.

Why would the marine be zig zagging? He can see it's an old tank and therefore will do little damage

To throw the tanks aim, the gunner is likely going to have great difficulty placing a SABOT round onto someone dodging rapidly at near 50mph whilst closing rapidly from 500m.

Also, if it is unfair for the tank, let's say it has a trophy APS with 50 rounds and a ROB makes sure it is effective against bolter shells.

So your trying to game the system against the marine by essentially making him unarmed against a battle tank?

[Darth Tanner]

Space Marine armor is basically immune to lasgun fire which can blow men to smithereens and blast great holes in concrete, and are also mostly immune to stubber gunfire

Resistent, not immune. Space marines are taken down by massed or even just lucky las fire and heavy stubber fire which is what a tanks machine guns would be still penetrate their armour.

[Elheru Aran]

Marines aren't dumb. They know perfectly well how to fight tanks-- move quickly, flank it or come at it from behind, use weapons that will breach its armour or take out the crew. Ragnar Blackmane goes up against a Leman Russ (IIRC) in one book, he simply tears off the hatch with his power armour and throws in some grenades. Job's done.

The M1A1 being able to hit the Marine depends strongly on whether it can track a man-size target, traverse quickly enough, and so forth.

[Simon_Jester]

A Trophy-like system is not designed to cope with numerous incoming rocket rounds in quick succession, so while it might shoot down the first bolter shell, it probably won't do any good against the next nine or ten shells.

I would bet on Space Marine armor to be effectively immune to .50 caliber heavy machine guns, in that you'd basically have to stand there and let the bullets chew at it for an extended time before any of them actually hit anything important that could be damaged. Remember that Space Marine armor provides at least adequate protection against bolters similar to the ones the Marines themselves carry. Not perfect, but adequate. So engaging the Marine with the .50s would be something of a desperation move. Not hopeless, but not very likely to succeed.

[NecronLord]

This seems like the archetypal 'depends on skill and fortune' answer I love to give - someone can no doubt find quotes of a marine hitting vulnerable parts of tanks with a bolter or even bolt pistol, and there's of course the 'two feet of steel' quote for bolter shells from Space Hulk which would imply possibly enough penetration to be meaningful.

Really though, they have several decent weapons to engage this guy, and sure they can sprint at very fast speeds sometimes, and sometimes they can't.

Of course if the guy has a lascannon or those deathwatch penetration-shells or something of that nature he stands a much better chance.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

A Trophy-like system is not designed to cope with numerous incoming rocket rounds in quick succession, so while it might shoot down the first bolter shell, it probably won't do any good against the next nine or ten shells.

I would bet on Space Marine armor to be effectively immune to .50 caliber heavy machine guns, in that you'd basically have to stand there and let the bullets chew at it for an extended time before any of them actually hit anything important that could be damaged. Remember that Space Marine armor provides at least adequate protection against bolters similar to the ones the Marines themselves carry. Not perfect, but adequate. So engaging the Marine with the .50s would be something of a desperation move. Not hopeless, but not very likely to succeed.

I'd figure resistant to at least .75 caliber(not quite 20mm), since that's the caliber of the average bolter shell.

[Elheru Aran]

Rule of thumb is that several standard bolter hits are *probably* enough to at least wound a Marine in standard power armour. That's square-on hits, not glancing. Shots to exposed heads are another story, of course.

And of course Chaos weapons, plasma weapons, lascannon, heavy bolters, stormbolters etc change the equation to some degree...

[NecronLord]

I'm not so sure about that. Remember our examples tend to have selection bias applied to them. We hear lots about the survivors because they're who the books are written about.

[Kingmaker]

the tank can manage 45mph at max but a marine can sprint atleast 50mph in some sources

Even so, that means it will take the smurf almost 4 minutes to close distance on the reversing tank*, and that's assuming he's running straight at it (and thereby making an easier target). If he's not, it could take even longer. Also, I have heard unverified anecdotes of Abrams crews routinely removing the governors in their tanks to increase top speed. I don't know if this is actually something that is done, or bullshit that gets repeated a lot. If it is true, the Abrams is faster than the marine, though I don't know what you'd be able to hit in an Abrams going 60 mph, other than maybe your head.

Some of this, as noted by others, also depends on how aware of each side is of the other's nature. Assuming no extra knowledge, the Spess Mehren is better equipped knowledge-wise to deal with a tank than an American tank crew is to deal with a Spess Mehren. An isolated tank crew is probably going to know that they don't want enemies on top of their tank, but they're not going to expect someone on foot to run at them at 50 mph, and it may not occur to them to try and keep range until it is too late.

*Obviously, this is ignoring issues like acceleration, orientation, and assuming the terrain is perfectly amenable.

[Elheru Aran]

I'm not so sure about that. Remember our examples tend to have selection bias applied to them. We hear lots about the survivors because they're who the books are written about.

Fair enough. I'm mostly going off the Horus Heresy books, as those are the most recent works I've been reading lately. Plenty of Marines getting killed there.

[Sea Skimmer]

Tank guns are more accurate then typical sniper rifles, about on par with the best sniper weapons its possible to build except retaining this accuracy to several kilometers and not 300 meters. The tank crew will not have much trouble hitting at this range, as the Marine is about the size of standard NATO tank targets in the first place. Also while machine gun fire might not be able to kill him, you guys are all discounting how inherently blinding it would be to be constantly engulfed with hundreds of machine gun round hits. Or for that matter how quickly the Marine's own weapon and equipment would be ravaged by such fire.

The only way the marine wins is if he cripples the tank from a distance first and I see little reason to assume he will do this faster then a tank crew with multiple independent weapons can pin him in place.

[Elheru Aran]

Tank guns are more accurate then typical sniper rifles, about on par with the best sniper weapons its possible to build except retaining this accuracy to several kilometers and not 300 meters. The tank crew will not have much trouble hitting at this range, as the Marine is about the size of standard NATO tank targets in the first place.

The question that comes to mind is: how *quickly* can they lay a shot on target? And what is accuracy like with moving targets (say versus a truck moving at 40 mph)? Ditto with tank moving as well?

(I don't doubt the tank can hit the Marine if the Marine is sitting still, I'm just curious about those metrics)

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Rule of thumb is that several standard bolter hits are *probably* enough to at least wound a Marine in standard power armour. That's square-on hits, not glancing. Shots to exposed heads are another story, of course.

And of course Chaos weapons, plasma weapons, lascannon, heavy bolters, stormbolters etc change the equation to some degree...

Just figured that their armor would be resistant to(not proof against) their own weapons.

[NecronLord]

I'm told that the IDF at least, are trained to shoot and hit charging men with their main cannon if their machine gun fails/etc for whatever reason.

Possibly something to look into to see how that actually works.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Tank guns are more accurate then typical sniper rifles, about on par with the best sniper weapons its possible to build except retaining this accuracy to several kilometers and not 300 meters. The tank crew will not have much trouble hitting at this range, as the Marine is about the size of standard NATO tank targets in the first place. Also while machine gun fire might not be able to kill him, you guys are all discounting how inherently blinding it would be to be constantly engulfed with hundreds of machine gun round hits. Or for that matter how quickly the Marine's own weapon and equipment would be ravaged by such fire.

The only way the marine wins is if he cripples the tank from a distance first and I see little reason to assume he will do this faster then a tank crew with multiple independent weapons can pin him in place.

He might have a chance if he'd been a Devastator squad Astartes with either a lascannon or a multi-melta. Though he'd have to get in close with the multi-melta. Plasma cannon or heavy bolter I'm not so sure about.

[Elheru Aran]

[snip]
The only way the marine wins is if he cripples the tank from a distance first and I see little reason to assume he will do this faster then a tank crew with multiple independent weapons can pin him in place.

He might have a chance if he'd been a Devastator squad Astartes with either a lascannon or a multi-melta. Though he'd have to get in close with the multi-melta. Plasma cannon or heavy bolter I'm not so sure about.

Heavy bolter is anti-infantry; it's not going to have THAT much effect on a tank (though a 40K heavy bolter versus a modern tank... hmm). Plasma cannon is shorter range than a lascannon, but longer than a multi-melta. Would very definitely take out a modern tank pretty decisively. Ditto the standard Marine rocket launcher with a krak shell. An autocannon might also hole a tank, but is more likely to be used against infantry and light vehicles IIRC.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Heavy bolter is anti-infantry; it's not going to have THAT much effect on a tank (though a 40K heavy bolter versus a modern tank... hmm). Plasma cannon is shorter range than a lascannon, but longer than a multi-melta. Would very definitely take out a modern tank pretty decisively. Ditto the standard Marine rocket launcher with a krak shell. An autocannon might also hole a tank, but is more likely to be used against infantry and light vehicles IIRC.

Figured the heavy bolter wouldn't do too much good against a tank(I think M3 and 40K tanks are similarly armored), and I'm more familiar with what a multi-melta could do than a plasma cannon(since I favored the former over the latter).

And, yeah, the standard Astartes rocket launcher with a krak shell would do a number on the tank.

Autocannon are primarily anti-personnel and anti-aircraft weapons(they're secondary armament on Thunderbolt atmospheric fighters, and were used to great effect against Chaos aircraft in Double Eagle).

[Zixinus]

Can the marine hide? It mentions flat terrain, but that does not mean it is necessarily empty.

Because that's the real decider: if the armed Space Marine can get close enough, he can overwhelm a target not used to the idea of someone running them down. But if the tank crew knows that they have an enemy and have time to aim, they can fire. A Space Marine knows what a tank is and probably has enough sense to not rush into incoming fire headlong (isn't that actually specifically forbidden in the tactic codex of theirs?), instead would have to get behind cover or try some other tactic. Even if only to hide under slightly depressed ground below which the tank can't fire.

Zigzagging doesn't work to begin with, it will definitely won't work against a gun that fires something that actually has a blast radius. The only thing it does is lengthen the path the Space Marine would have to take to get to the tank, unless the Space Marine could actually dodge the bullets.

Even if it does not kill the space marine outright, it will definitely stop and stun him for a short period of time as well as severely damage the armor. In turn, the Space Marine needs to be able to disable the main gun of the tank. If the tank's threads are hit and the tank is stationary, it can still shoot. The question asks whether repeated bolter fire can penetrate armor.

[Elheru Aran]

Autocannon really depend on the writer to some degree. Heresy era, they were decent anti-armour weapons as they had better shells back then... or something like that... tougher too as you could use them as close-combat weapons (obviously we're talking Marines here, your usual scrub Guardie isn't going to be waving one around).

Oh, almost forgot multilasers. CS Goto (may his name go into the pits of Tzeentch) decided they were the be-all and end-all of Marine heavy weaponry for some reason... anyway functionally they're largely equivalent to autocannons from what I recall except obviously you don't have to reload them. Not as good against armour or something.