Magog worldship vs Death Star

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2002-09-02 07:35pm

I'd say pretty much whoever gets the first shot, the death star could take out the worldship by hitting the balls on it, and the worldship has a point-singularity projector which fires miniature black holes, and all you can do against those is dodge them, and I don't think the death star is very manuverable.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-02 07:45pm

and the worldship has a point-singularity projector which fires miniature black holes, and all you can do against those is dodge them, and I don't think the death star is very manuverable

Except Minture Black Holes are not all that effective aginst the Death-Star given thier very nature, A Black Hole roughly the Size of your fist would be *safe within two miles the event horizen being roughly thirty feet away.

Belive me Black Holes or not(And thier are serious question on weather its mearly a massive kinetic attack(IE Railgun realy) or acutaly a very small Black Hole as that would require soooooooo much protectection as to be useless(Like Making a Fission gun, Whereby the power of a small fission bomb is focuse out one end of a large gun, its just not praticule)

And SW Shielding has been show to stop Kinetic attacks before(ROTJ, EU, many many times in EU, Endor battle in ROTJ, many ties smack into ISDs and other ships with no dents... on the ISD at least)

But however I belive the Death-Star has a large Range advantage in this NTM if its accomedy by its usal fleet(12 ISDs and support ships, plus roughly 200 odd TIE squadrens) the small Hyperspace presance of the World ship would be just perfect for the ISDs to hop in first(And very close) scramble Fighters and blast the Projecters off the World-ship and then close and kill it with the Death-star

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2002-09-02 08:07pm

Except Minture Black Holes are not all that effective aginst the Death-Star given thier very nature, A Black Hole roughly the Size of your fist would be *safe within two miles the event horizen being roughly thirty feet away.]

Well, I'm not talking about having it pull something into it, I mean it directly hitting the death star's shields, and it would just absorb the energy and keep going.

Belive me Black Holes or not(And thier are serious question on weather its mearly a massive kinetic attack(IE Railgun realy) or acutaly a very small Black Hole as that would require soooooooo much protectection as to be useless(Like Making a Fission gun, Whereby the power of a small fission bomb is focuse out one end of a large gun, its just not praticule)]

Actually I don't see how you could fire a black hole at all, whatever you tried to project it with would just get absorbed into it (like the air bursting out to fire a bullet) And even if you could, it wouldn't dissapear when it hit an object or anything it would just get bigger.

And SW Shielding has been show to stop Kinetic attacks before(ROTJ, EU, many many times in EU, Endor battle in ROTJ, many ties smack into ISDs and other ships with no dents... on the ISD at least)]

This is not like a tie or X-wing hitting a shield, black holes are massive and much heavier, I've learned kind of from this site not to rely on science novices, but my 8th grade science teacher said that to get the density of a black hole you'd have to squeeze the earth down to the size of a jawbreaker, and the death star or ISD has never been hit with a planet.

But however I belive the Death-Star has a large Range advantage in this NTM if its accomedy by its usal fleet(12 ISDs and support ships, plus roughly 200 odd TIE squadrens) the small Hyperspace presance of the World ship would be just perfect for the ISDs to hop in first(And very close) scramble Fighters and blast the Projecters off the World-ship and then close and kill it with the Death-star

I just meant the death star vs it.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-02 08:40pm

Well, I'm not talking about having it pull something into it, I mean it directly hitting the death star's shields, and it would just absorb the energy and keep going.

Equal and Opposit reaction, remeber though your shooting supermassive *bullets at something there actual speed is not that high. While a Tank at 20 miles per hour has quite alot of Kinetic force it IS possible, espcial considering the Sheperical Nature of the DS shields that you would *Vear the Weapons off(No longer than the First Volly in all likleylood though)
But realy we don't know much about the PSP weapons they use(I just saw part 2 of that paricular Epsoide awhile ago and if I remeber does not the Andromdea get hit at one point by them?)

Actually I don't see how you could fire a black hole at all, whatever you tried to project it with would just get absorbed into it (like the air bursting out to fire a bullet) And even if you could, it wouldn't dissapear when it hit an object or anything it would just get bigger.

Still it would be moved, you just need a great enough mass Traveling at a fast enough Velocity
A good example is take the avarage two Story Brick Building, If you where to fling yourself at it, running as fast as you could go, the building would not move much, However Take a Bus going as fast as it can go and your going to move the building(Though brick unlike Black Holes breaks much easier than it moves)

Like I said we don't know enough about PSPs to realy say much, They could be Glorfied Rail-Guns, they could acutal be using massive-antigravity fields to hold a minture black hole in place to fire, who knows(IMO in SW at least there does exist the Tecnology though its been Lost to move Black Holes, the classic example is the Maw Cluster, roughly forty black holes in a barley stable configureation where they exactly repell and attract each other and no way in bobs name could it have formed naturaly)

This is not like a tie or X-wing hitting a shield, black holes are massive and much heavier, I've learned kind of from this site not to rely on science novices, but my 8th grade science teacher said that to get the density of a black hole you'd have to squeeze the earth down to the size of a jawbreaker, and the death star or ISD has never been hit with a planet.

I know that

I'm just saying as we have a few idiots here who still Claim that SW does not have Kinetic shielding and I was mearly preempting them(Also it should be noted we do have Cannon Evidance that SSDs, can take not one but three ISDs and survive with shields still up(Take them as I mean they ran into it at the same time and it survived )
ISDs are roughly 1.6kms long and they had just droped from Hyperspace meaning they where going quite fast

I just meant the death star vs it.

Ahh well can the World-Ship use its Swarm ships then? Or do you just mean the PSP cannons VS 1E38J superlaser fight?

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-09-03 12:15am

PSP particles fired by the MWS cannot be going very fast, even if they were able to go at 90 PSL, the DS super laser should strike first.. Especially at a range off 2 Light minutes...

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2002-09-03 01:13am

Equal and Opposit reaction, remeber though your shooting supermassive *bullets at something there actual speed is not that high. While a Tank at 20 miles per hour has quite alot of Kinetic force it IS possible, espcial considering the Sheperical Nature of the DS shields that you would *Vear the Weapons off(No longer than the First Volly in all likleylood though)
But realy we don't know much about the PSP weapons they use(I just saw part 2 of that paricular Epsoide awhile ago and if I remeber does not the Andromdea get hit at one point by them?)

Yes, actually at the end of the first one, it gets skewered] by a psp bullet, can an ISD survive an "injury" like that? Do they have force fields to cover hull breaches, like when that ship crashed through the window? Or do they just have to seal off the area where the hull breach is?

A good example is take the avarage two Story Brick Building, If you where to fling yourself at it, running as fast as you could go, the building would not move much, However Take a Bus going as fast as it can go and your going to move the building(Though brick unlike Black Holes breaks much easier than it moves)

I always wondered what would happen if say a loaded tractor trailer crashed through the wall into a sub shop I used to work at. Not that I didn't like working there, just wondered what would happen, the tables are bolted to the floor and the seats are built into the woodwork in the dining room, and also there's a sidewalk surrounding the perimeter, of the doors and windows, hope the truck wouldn't fall over or anything when it went up onto the sidewalk.

Ahh well can the World-Ship use its Swarm ships then? Or do you just mean the PSP cannons VS 1E38J superlaser fight?

Ah, I think the death star's shields would stop them dead in thier tracks, no punching through the hull of the DS, the turbolaser turrets couldn't hit the ships since they couldn't hit X-wings, but the DS could release tons of tie's to take out the swarm ships, but......would it have to lower the shields to do this, or can the tie's go straight out through it?[/i]

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-03 08:41am

Yes, actually at the end of the first one, it gets skewered] by a psp bullet, can an ISD survive an "injury" like that? Do they have force fields to cover hull breaches, like when that ship crashed through the window? Or do they just have to seal off the area where the hull breach is?

They could use Forcefields for that(Mag-Fields on shuttle bays for one) but generaly they shut the bulck-head doors in that area
(Every eight meters if I remeber corretly, not real sure but its under fifteen) and send the drioids into repair it

I always wondered what would happen if say a loaded tractor trailer crashed through the wall into a sub shop I used to work at. Not that I didn't like working there, just wondered what would happen, the tables are bolted to the floor and the seats are built into the woodwork in the dining room, and also there's a sidewalk surrounding the perimeter, of the doors and windows, hope the truck wouldn't fall over or anything when it went up onto the sidewalk.

Thats the point, If you for example said it was a big Steel Cube then the Bust would push it instead of going through it because its strength is uniform through-out while a Sub-Shop or a Building has weak poritions that will break before the building will move

Ah, I think the death star's shields would stop them dead in thier tracks, no punching through the hull of the DS, the turbolaser turrets couldn't hit the ships since they couldn't hit X-wings, but the DS could release tons of tie's to take out the swarm ships, but......would it have to lower the shields to do this, or can the tie's go straight out through it?[/

There are Particule and Energy Shields either can be droped in any direction and small holes can be opened because of the Cell like nature of Shielding to let TIE's Through. Also I must point out Swarm ships are alot bigger that TIE's and even though they said they could not hit the fighters at least eight fighters where downed by Cannon fire anyway(Out of 28 to start with 2 survived eight died to guns, rest where gotten by ties)

To be fair I did some thinking about it last night and it looks like the PSPs would be Skidding like Rain-Drops off an Umbrela untill the shields where taken down which the PSPs would do with raw KE damange after a few shots, unknow how much because while the PSPs have high mass thier speed is realy where they'd do the KE damage though to be fair both are used to Calcuate KE, I'm refering to the diffculty of making it bounce away instead of burning it up

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-09-03 07:19pm

Here's the way I see it happening.

1) PSB reaches shields
2) Section of the shield falls within the PSB's event horizon
3) Said section of shield is absorbed by PSB
4) PSB continues on

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-03 07:32pm

1) PSB reaches shields
2) Section of the shield falls within the PSB's event horizon
3) Said section of shield is absorbed by PSB
4) PSB continues on

Its nice but it ignores Physics

Equal and Oppostie reaction and all that XaLEv, might want to read up on that abit

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-09-03 07:36pm

Mr Bean wrote:
1) PSB reaches shields
2) Section of the shield falls within the PSB's event horizon
3) Said section of shield is absorbed by PSB
4) PSB continues on
Its nice but it ignores Physics

Equal and Oppostie reaction and all that XaLEv, might want to read up on that abit

How?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-03 07:45pm

Ahem
Every force which puts a force on another object affects that object in some way

Oh and the fact they don't appear to be black holes from the fact(Go back and look) that the hole torn through the ship was not a clean nice black-hole style one with things bent towards the Event Horizen, rather it tears through it leaving damaging consitant with a heavy projectile weapon(I don't have the Pics because my TV is not set up for that otherwise I'd yank some off) but the way the Andromida is hit we see a hole with the debries, Facing DIFFRENT ways

Tell me since a black hole draws things towards it and its passing through the hull, would it not make sence for all hanging support girders and the like to be facing the direction its traveling? It would if it was a true black hole but the fact that its not indicates its not a *True Black hole, A massive condensded projectile prehaps but not a black-hole

Also the fact the Swarm ships mount these weapons indicates they are not black holes

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-09-03 07:58pm

Mr Bean wrote:Ahem
Every force which puts a force on another object affects that object in some way

Oh and the fact they don't appear to be black holes from the fact(Go back and look) that the hole torn through the ship was not a clean nice black-hole style one with things bent towards the Event Horizen, rather it tears through it leaving damaging consitant with a heavy projectile weapon(I don't have the Pics because my TV is not set up for that otherwise I'd yank some off) but the way the Andromida is hit we see a hole with the debries, Facing DIFFRENT ways

Tell me since a black hole draws things towards it and its passing through the hull, would it not make sence for all hanging support girders and the like to be facing the direction its traveling? It would if it was a true black hole but the fact that its not indicates its not a *True Black hole, A massive condensded projectile prehaps but not a black-hole

Also the fact the Swarm ships mount these weapons indicates they are not black holes

I have seen people say before that visuals are not canon in Andromeda, or that they are at least subordinate to dialogue. I am trying to find a quote to that effect now.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-03 08:02pm

I have seen people say before that visuals are not canon in Andromeda, or that they are at least subordinate to dialogue. I am trying to find a quote to that effect now.

(In Comic book guy voice)
What is this... Bizzaro World? Up is down down is up and rules of Cannon are exact opposite of the norm?

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2002-09-03 10:45pm

To be fair I did some thinking about it last night and it looks like the PSPs would be Skidding like Rain-Drops off an Umbrela untill the shields where taken down which the PSPs would do with raw KE damange after a few shots, unknow how much because while the PSPs have high mass thier speed is realy where they'd do the KE damage though to be fair both are used to Calcuate KE, I'm refering to the diffculty of making it bounce away instead of burning it up

Nope, Rommie said the PSP bullets can't be deflected (as per deflector shields) or shot-down, etc, by the way what exactly is a deflector shield made of? I mean yes as they say "pure energy" but take KE for example, it's energy of an object, or electricity is electrons, or light is photons, etc. I think if it hit the shield, it would absorb that part of the shield, go through, and make a big gaping hole in the death star, like taking a bite out of an apple.

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-09-04 01:30am

If one were able to generate a gravitic incline, ie: instead of a depression in space/time you create a hill, the PSP bullet would lose momentum as it attempted to 'climb' the hill. If one could create a steep enough hill you would quite literally stop the bullet in its tracks, and if the created incline was greater than the bullet's momentum it not only would be stopped but would be accelerated back 'down' the hill toward the firing ship. I think a tractor beam could do that, but I know an Honorverse Sidewall could.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-09-04 06:39am

PSP's. First off, I have extreme doubts about the KE aspect claimed for this missile. IIRC they only travel at .5c - if they literally were the mass of a planet, this could not in any way be significantly relatavistic mass - to gain that much would require the PSP to be near-c, when IIRC from slipstreambbs, its like half that.

This PSP "mass" must not be much (since most ships do not carry around the mass of a planet to fire one, much less several pulses.) and whatever "mass" it gains is somehow tied into the weird AG tech they have (the same stuff that probably applies to that weird "mass lightnening" tech they use - I know its not literal mass lightening, but thats what the effect basically is. Perhaps a more appropriate analogy for PSP might be what a slipstream core, which IIRC does use exotic matter/AG effects, dropped on a planet as in "Mathematics of Tears" if I remember correctly.) Most of the destructive effect must come from the strong gravitaitonal forces/singularity of the PSP itself. For lack of a better way to put it, I suspect the PSP "eats" its way through anything in its path,which is why we see it punch so cleanly through the ship. I could be wrong about this though.

Note however, that it is still massive, and moving at a fairly substantial portion of lightspeed, and will still have fairly significant KE effects (just not likely that it would if it WERE literally flinging planetary masses at relatavistic speeds) and this probably contributes to damage as well.

Regardless of actual damage mechanism, I should point out something. Given how we've seen NR shields react to strong gravitational effects of Dovin Basals in the NJO series (which generate black holes themselves) I suspect that SW shields will not stop a PSP (dovin basal - black hole. PSP = black hole I think).

There IS a possible countermeasure however. Just as we know Dovin Basals can defeat shields, we know SW inertial compensators/acceleration compensators can produce strong gravitational fields to nullify teh Dovin Basal "grabbing" effect. This probably would work against a PSP as well... at least in nullifying its gravity (whatever energetic effects it had, such as the KE from the true mass of the bolt moving at relatavistic speeds.. would have to be affected by shields)

Another small advantage is of course that a PSP tends to deliver its damage in a very focused/localized manner and in almost every case "punches through" the target in question quite cleanly. This means that the ship generally takes only a part of the damage the PSP is capable of. Unless it hits something vital (reactor, fuel tanks, engines, etc.) the damage will not immediately be crippling.

Also, regarding the superlaser. Keep in mind the limitations of the weapon. At full power (planet destroying level) it can only fire once per day (as the DS-1). The DS-2 may be different (at least its more powerful). So if the esuperlaser is unable to finish the MWS in one full-power shot, it won't be able to use it again for 24 hours.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-09-04 07:28am

Hi Connor

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-09-04 09:48pm

Dead on Arrival wrote:If one were able to generate a gravitic incline, ie: instead of a depression in space/time you create a hill, the PSP bullet would lose momentum as it attempted to 'climb' the hill. If one could create a steep enough hill you would quite literally stop the bullet in its tracks, and if the created incline was greater than the bullet's momentum it not only would be stopped but would be accelerated back 'down' the hill toward the firing ship. I think a tractor beam could do that, but I know an Honorverse Sidewall could.

That depends, any SW tractor beams that can stop a planet traveling at 0.5 c?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-04 10:23pm

That depends, any SW tractor beams that can stop a planet traveling at 0.5 c

You don't have to stop it to wap it off course(As Tractor beams are a phyiscal Reaction) but yes the best SW can do is stop moon sized objects

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-09-05 02:21am

Mr Bean wrote:
That depends, any SW tractor beams that can stop a planet traveling at 0.5 c
You don't have to stop it to wap it off course(As Tractor beams are a phyiscal Reaction) but yes the best SW can do is stop moon sized objects

Given that the things are fired at several light seconds, I doubt they are going to present huge trouble, just move towards the side a bit, or use tractor beams to push on the PSP, will not move the PSP but it will move the ISD away.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-09-05 12:15pm

Again, I repeat, the "mass of the planet" thing is not literal. It would be impractical for a starship to be carrying that much mass around for one shot, much less multiple ones.

IIRC from "All too Human" Dylan inferred, before the use of slipstream to stop the PSPs that "they were too far out to use defensive missiles, and their own OM's and attack drones were already committed [to the basilisk] - basically a paraphrase I think, but accurate enough. Had circumstances permitted, it actually sounds like Dylan believes the missiles could have stopped PSPs. Which seems odd, given Beka's prior comments about "not being able to shoot them or deflect them."

Perhaps the missiles disrupt them in some other way - Beka did infer that destructive capability of the PSP increased with size - "The bigger they are, the harder they hit" Given the drones the basilisk fired upon (thus identifying the use of PSP technology to Dylan and the others) and that the PSP's were totally expended upon them (whereas if they'd been a literal planetary mass moving at .5c, they should have punched straight through, unless we somehow believe that Andromeda ships can absorb planet-destroying energies). Therefore, projecting some form of mass in the path of the PSPs might stop them - "shoot them" may mean shooting them with point defense, not neccesarily intercepting with missiles, and Dylan's comments plus Beka's, and the effect on the drone suggest that missiles might be able to stop them.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-05 01:38pm

Connor: The 'One Shot Per Day' is a fallacy perpertuated by WEG. It is Canon that it can fire twice a day, as seen in ANH(This day has seen the end of Kenobi, and shall see the end of the Rebellion - Darth Vader).

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-09-05 03:32pm

SirNitram wrote:Connor: The 'One Shot Per Day' is a fallacy perpertuated by WEG. It is Canon that it can fire twice a day, as seen in ANH(This day has seen the end of Kenobi, and shall see the end of the Rebellion - Darth Vader).

1.) Its not perpetuated by WEG to my knowledge. I recall them placing SL recharge at maybe eight hours (1 hour per 2d, 16d max IIRC). The only sources I immediately recall specifying the day-long estimate are the SWTJ (1 per day at planet-destroying level) and the EGW&T.)

2.) We're talking about a rather long arc of time between Alderaan's Death, and events at the Battle of Yavin:

1.) Alderaan is destroyed. DS remains in system while scout ships head for Dantooine. No idea how long this could take. Hours at least, days maybe. We're probably talking about a long trip though, since IIRC Alderaan is a core world and Dantooine is in the Outer Rim. (and it might have been other scouts, but remember they canonically said "our scout ships have reached Dantooine.")

2.) Falcon appears in the Alderaan system. Captured by DS. Rescue of Leia and death of Kenobi. Unknown time period. many minutes at least, possibly hours (1-2 maybe.)

3.) Falcon travels to Yavin. Again, traveling from Core World to outer Rim. Again hours of travel at least, if not a couple days. DS follows, and probably takes longer than the Falcon.

4.) Falcon arrives in Yavin system. Time there is long enough apparently that Han can freshen up while his reward is prepared, Luke can be tested as a pilot, briefing, and preparation. Limit on this though is that not enough time (or perhaps transport) was available for effective evacuation, otherwise the Rebels might not have stood and fought. A few hours maybe at most.

There are some qualifers to this though. Lacking effective long-distance/galactic communications (like the Empire has, and even then using it would be risky) the Rebels can have trouble coordinating,and it can take a long time to gather resources, recall in ships, etc. Likewise, they may not have enough transport capability to evacuate everyone from their major base at this moment, for whatever reason. If you consider that they probably have to use couriers to communicate (unless they want to reveal the location of other Rebel locales), they can probably take hours to assemble enough transport to evacuate, not to mention the evac times themselves, and if the Imperials arrived during the evacuation, they would most likely be dead.

The opportunity to destroy the Death Star presented itself. Who knows whether the Rebels would have had a better chance, or they may have felt the risk was worth it. Therefore, staying may have been voluntary in order to insure DS destruction (If they were sure the REbels had the plans, and they evacuated, they may seek to prevent or deny an opportunity to exploit any weaknesses.)

5.) Battle of Yavin. 30 minutes - the only (to my knowledge) known timeframe in the whole movie.

Point being: the timeframe isn't quite specific enough to rule out the "one shot per day" claim, and although some official evidence suggests that the superlaser may be capable of up to 3 full power shots per day, the realistic estimate seems to be only one per day. Likewise, that quote isn't neccesarily specific enough to rule out the 1 per day notion either.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-09-05 03:34pm

regarding hyperspace travel times: Also recall that Yavin, being a major alliance base, and Dantooine, being the site of a former base, are quite possibly "off the beaten path" to prevent random patrols from running across them (and to increase secrecy/protection from Imperials in general) - it doesnt do to have your base near a major hyperspace route where the Empire patrols heavily

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-09-05 10:34pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Given the drones the basilisk fired upon (thus identifying the use of PSP technology to Dylan and the others) and that the PSP's were totally expended upon them (whereas if they'd been a literal planetary mass moving at .5c, they should have punched straight through, unless we somehow believe that Andromeda ships can absorb planet-destroying energies).

I believe the point is the Andromeda didn't absorb the planet-destroying energies. The PSP's went through the Andromeda like a bullet through a pile of foam. Virtually, none of its energy was absorbed.

Therefore, projecting some form of mass in the path of the PSPs might stop them - "shoot them" may mean shooting them with point defense, not neccesarily intercepting with missiles, and Dylan's comments plus Beka's, and the effect on the drone suggest that missiles might be able to stop them.

The Andromeda opened a slipstream portal to divert the PSP's away from the planet dispite creating enough force to cause planetary upheavel. I doubt they would take such a drastic measure in using missiles was an option.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Magog worldship vs Death Star

Magog worldship vs Death Star

first shot goes to DS