The Imperium vs The Empire

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2002-09-11 10:20am

Here's an interesting one (forgive me if its already been discussed)...

I was recently pondering the implications of a war between the Imperium of Man (aka Warhammer 40k by Games Workshop) against the Galactic Empire...

Now...I will admit to being hugely biased to the Imperium, but I would like to hear any of your opinions about who you come out tops & why...

For example you could realisticaly put a Jedi Knight up against an Imperial Inquisitor...or how about a squad of Space Marines against Storm Troopers...

Or even Palpatine (in his prime) against the Emperor (before his mortal wounding by Horus)....okay well actually Palpatine would be minced easily there...but some of the other aspects of the two universes would be interesting to compare...

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-11 10:34am

Empire=gets creamed in ground combat
spacebattles-I dunno.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2002-09-11 10:46am

Yeah I figured that the Empire, dispite its huge Star Trek whooping abilites, would be trounched in Ground Assualt...

Regarding Space Combat...well the Hyperdrive of the Empire is much faster than the Imperiums Warp engines (no way similar to ST...more likened to Babylon 5...but with more inherent danger) but The Imperium's Navy is usually described as being, well, massive...most ships dwarf Star Destroyers...and the bigger vessels would make the Executer look under nourished...

and they both have fighters and stuff so it could be an interesting, hard won fight....

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-11 10:54am

Yeah I figured that the Empire, dispite its huge Star Trek whooping abilites, would be trounched in Ground Assualt...

No surprise there. SW is just medium-powerful, but ST is so pathetic pretty much everyone can kick it's sorry ass.

Imperial (o' mankind) ships seem to be pretty powerful.
While having basic knowledge about then I don't know anything about the power of their weapons, this is one for Necron Lord.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-11 10:59am

Those Imperium fellows sound fairly imposing. Would someone supply a link, so persons like myself would know what they are?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-11 11:05am

http://www.games-workshop.com/40kuniver ... iverse.htm
You'll find Warhammer 40k and battlefleet gothic, the spacebattles addition for WH40K there.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2002-09-11 11:10am

You could go to the Games Workshop site (www.games-workshop.com) & look up all the info regarding the Warhammer 40k universe...also you could try & download a copy of the Fluff bible (basically a 300 page document describing most of the areas of the game...its made up of pretty old stuff...but hardly any of it has been contridicted in recent years...)

You can get a copy of that from www.theportent.net look around the forums and ask some members they should be able to supply a link...

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-09-11 01:21pm

*Slams open the door*

Nobody expects His Holy Inquisition!

I do recall something in the old space hulk fluff about a 600+ gigaton missile, 100 meter long torpedoes.. and other goodies like neutronium ramming bores.

On the ground of course the Empire gets torn a new one of course.

Landspeeders, Land Raiders, Leman Russ battle tanks, 60 meter tall warlord battle titans, and (if you scale it off the infantry in the picture) 4.2 kilometer tall Imperator Battle Titans

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-09-11 02:04pm

And the nasty weapons they have like vortex missles that rip a hole in spacetime and suck everythiung nearby into them,apcs that drill through the ground and appear behind enemy line Imperium forces also have Jet bikes like the Eldar just not as advanced

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-09-11 02:19pm

Space marines would wipe the floor with Stormies.

I'm npot too sure but i think that warp is slightly slower than hyperdrive, but it is a HELL of a lot more dangerous.

I can't remeber anything being published that describes the power out put of the energy weapons used in 40K or anything about their ship to ship weapons (or shields for that matter) so I'm just going to go along with my opinion that they are roughly equal.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-11 02:37pm

slightly slower?
Warp is as slow as shit without astronomicans (Emperor-controlled navigational beacons) but with them it's almost as fast as hyperdrive.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-09-11 07:23pm

hmm ground wise obviously the Imperium of man, You just can't argue with an Imperator Titan... (Well you can in theory, it just usually ends up with you being a strange pinkish stain on the floor... maybe mixed in with a little metal..)
Stormies get mashed pretty bad by Marines, but then again it's hardly a fair fight, Marine's are Genetically altered People, who barely class as Human anymore, However their are only roughly a Thousand Chapters of a Thousand MArines in each. (This dosn't include Scouts, who are not yet full Marines, but have been altered and trained enough to be used in battle, they havn't yet fully grown the Carapace Skin, needed to fully operate power Armour)

A FAirer fight would be Stormies versus an Imperial Guard Unit say the Catachan's... (Actually Bad idea, if I've got my regiments right, do not fight the Catachan Jungle Fighter's, they come from a Death World, (A World where a child knows how to defend themself before they know how walk, a Catachan learns how to use a Gun before walking and probs talking, the entire world just about is hostile to human life... the original settlers of these worlds are usually either too stubbon to move out, or had no choice but to stay, obviously the people who join the Imperial Guard are taken from the best...)

Erm lets see, it needs to be an elite Imperial Guard regiment... AH HA the Pretorian Guard. (Yes, the name sounds very familar if you speak it, Pretorian Guards Where a Special limited edition set, made up to look like the Red Coats... They even released a scenerio in white dwarf based on the events portrayed in Zulo...)

Anyway onwards, In space, the Empire has ONE advantage over the Imperiam of Man, FTL Speed, they can choose when to fight, problem is, even if they can do this they will find it hard to make much use of this advantage, as when battle is joined they will be outclassed, still it will allow them a slight advatage, they could hit picket ships, and supply lines.

Jedi Vs Inquistor... Hmm tough one, the question has got to be two part. 1.) Is the Inquistor wearing Terminator Armour. (Well the type Inquistor's can wear)
2.) If so, what defence does it offer against a lightsaber?
Actually Added Question what type of Inquistor? Xeno's MAlleaus or Hereticus? It may be a factor after all, also add on, what is his view point on using unorthodox tactics... (Such as Deamon Hosts...

Oh well that'll do for now...

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-09-11 10:38pm

Well warp CAN be slow as shit.. other times it can make hyperdrive look like a tranquilized slug (IIRC there are cases of people arriving at their destination before they left). Really depends because the Warp is so damn unpredictable.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-12 05:38am

Ah my reputation grows

, i'll answer this later.

Neko_Oni · Post by **Neko_Oni** » 2002-09-12 06:04am

About the Inquisitor Terminator, if you go purely by the rules Terminators get a 5+ save against EVERYTHING.

However in reality Termie Armour probably wouldn't help (I've never seen a Lightsabre so much as slow down when cutting through something). BUT Inquisitor's usually have some kind of personal force field don't they?

It does seem that on the whole the Empire is simply not big enough (at least from the movies and the books I've read), the Imperium is used to fighting century long wars on thousands of fronts at the same time. Also their ships are HUGE, they consider space fighters to be things with crews of 5 or 6 the size of 747's.

Anyway there's my little rant. BTW I'm not a rabid fan of any 40K I just think that the Empire is honestly outclassed here.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-12 06:55am

In a war I would expect an Imperial victory

The 40K humans once possessed a culture level of technology, fortunately for the empire this was considerably pre-imperium. The Imperium is a last bastion of humanity against all comers. Few people still have knowlage of the secrets of the 'dark age of technology' and half of them worship the necrons

. it should also be noted that the imperium is in decline. Every Titan lost is irreplacable. Every ship destroyed is a calamity. Every year the threats in their home galaxy grow.
There is no contest regarding the ability of a space marine to walk towards a stormie pick him up and snap his neck. However there are only a million space marines. and the process for creating more takes generations. 40K transporter technology is more developed than starfleets, The only thing that affects their transporters is active feilds or jamming, no funky ores here. That said it is rarely used, and troopers dread it and do fear for their souls when using it. The majority of imperial forces are made up of the Imperial Guard. usually drafted human soldiers, who can be committed in the billions. They do have one thing going for them though, non line of site weapons.
In space the imperium's battleships are huge behamoths that are usually thousands of years old. They commonly mount weapons able to exterminate all life on a planet in one shot. Howeve they are unmanuverable, and slow, very slow, pondeous would be a better word. If the objective is something like "destroy coruscant" then there is no problem.
Warp can be as slow as shit, it can take centuries to arrive anywhere, They can arrive before they left, or they can never arrive, ever. . Given the fracturedness of the Imperium, i would expect a SW victory.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-12 08:33am

The 40K humans once possessed a culture level of technology, fortunately for the empire this was considerably pre-imperium.

Aren't there still some ships left from the dark ago o' technology?

In space the imperium's battleships are huge behemoths that are usually thousands of years old.

Me like them. The cruiser variants and the Retribution class are said to date back to the founding of the Imperium. Are those ships really 10000+
years old? Man they're pretty rugged....

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-12 10:23am

The Devine right is from the late DAoT

mostly they are were destroyed in the "Age of strife"

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-09-12 03:32pm

Neko_Oni wrote: However in reality Termie Armour probably wouldn't help (I've never seen a Lightsabre so much as slow down when cutting through something). BUT Inquisitor's usually have some kind of personal force field don't they?

Many do. However one thing you have to remember is that terminator armor was originally meant to operate INSIDE plasma reactors.. and we've seen Termies get back up after a titan stepped on them (that and mono-molecular edged weapons are standard and do crap against armor unless you get lucky).

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-09-12 03:33pm

And titans are hardly irreplacable. There are references to titans being constructed.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-12 03:39pm

Highest scouce, irreplacable technology = TITAN graphic novel

They can replace warhound's I think.

no titan is less than 4000 years old.

The orks construct their crude gargant's, true.

and the eldar can.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-09-12 10:07pm

and now it begins, the real problem with 40K debates, conflicting evidence.
Titan's:- hard to replace, but I'd say not impossible, more than likely through restricted access. (Mars may well have the STC for Titan's and a few other Adeptu's Mechanicus Forge worlds, but they will have to be 110% secure...)
Star Ships, It depends, I think the Ghost Novels hint at it being split somewhat, the Adeptus Mechanicus own fleet is very old, with few replacements coming in, using as it does Titan type mind link up devices. (The Captain of one had not left his ship since taking over 10-20 years previoiusly, no even worse, he had not left his central control 'pod' for want of a better word, he had become obese, but it didn't matter because he was tied into the control of the entire ship, he was the ship) The standard warships through are different, and easier to construct. (It was an honour to be transported onboard the first ship, being a living avatar of the MAchine God)
Having said that most of the big guns in the IoM is old, Rhino's are preserved as long as possible, despite being replacable, it's a part of the worship of technolgy by the engineers, so something is kept, repaired and so on as much as possible, they never stop trying to fix something unless it is litterally in ickle pieces.
Space MArines... Not generations to replace, numbers lost, but it is hard to do, only the very best are selected and a vast majourity from any selection will die in the transformation, but the biggest problem facing Marine Number's is the 1000 Marines per Chapter rule. (This was enforced after the Horus Heresy, for those with no knowledge of the 40K verse, and makes a lot sense when you discover what happened then...)

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-13 02:40am

No the generations is to make NEW gene seed for them, it has to be implanted and then harvested many years later and done repeatedly until they have a thousand new gene seed. To replace a dead marine takes a few years.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-09-13 10:08am

According to the novel Execution Hour, the Imperium's ships-of-the-line, the Dictator-class cruisers, are roughly 3km long.

If we estimate that the models for Battlefleet Gothic all are to scale, the Imperial starships are these sizes:

Retribution-class and Emperor-class battleships: 3785m
Vengeance-class Grand Cruisers and variants: 3400m
Dictator-class Medium Cruisers and variants: roughly 3000m
Dauntless-class Light Cruisers: 2250m
Firestorm-class Frigate: 1438m
Sword-class Frigate: 1250m
Cobra-class Destroyer: 1200m

If we use these estimates, the Imperium's ships-of-the-line are generally bigger than the Empire's (the Empire's fleet are based upon 1600m destroyers, while the Imperium's standard fighting ships are almost 2 times bigger than that) - however, the Empire has built far bigger ships, such as the Executor-class Command Ship and of course, ships seen in Dark Empire which were much bigger than ISDs but much smaller than Executors.

However, if only the movies and tech manuals are considered canon, then the Imperium actually has a size advantage!!

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-13 10:15am

Size matters not. At least not in this scenario. The Imperial cruisers are roughly equivalent to a SD so it should be a very interesting fight which in the end will be decided by numbers and good tactics/strategies.

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