Romulan Fleet vs B5 Galaxy

Rathark · Post by **Rathark** » 2002-09-25 10:05am

November, 2260. After Babylon 5's succession from the Earth Alliance.

A wormhole opens exactly halfway between Earth and Babylon 5, disgorging 200 fully armed Romulan warships. A new universe, a new opportunity for conquest ...

Just at the moment the war is at full heat (whichever way it is turning), the Vorlons and Shadows decide to intervene. It is debatable which sides they take, but they have their own interests at heart. The other First Ones (except Lorien) also join in.

What happens?

(Note: There is obviously no dilithium in the B5 universe. Romulans use only warp drive unless they use an external jump gate. And "fully armed" means exactly that, no more, no less).

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2002-09-25 09:02pm

Umm... I think this is a bit unfair.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-25 09:11pm

Romulan ships are powered by artificial singularities, no need for dilithium.
Regardless, with that piddly force, they go down hard.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-25 09:19pm

Evil Jerk wrote:Romulan ships are powered by artificial singularities, no need for dilithium.
Regardless, with that piddly force, they go down hard.

I don't think so. I think they are able to destroy large groups of B5 ships with relative ease.

Lt. Nebfer · Post by **Lt. Nebfer** » 2002-09-25 09:39pm

rember that the earth alience has 30,000 plus ships so that 150 to 1 and thats just one race

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-25 09:48pm

Lt. Nebfer wrote:rember that the earth alience has 30,000 plus ships so that 150 to 1 and thats just one race

You underestimate the advantages that the Romulans have. Namely in protection and firepower. It is unclear how well their cloaking devices would work, but I'm guessing that they would be given away by the Romulan use of singularities in their warp cores. Their torpedoes, however, would be absolutely devestatingly effective against B5 ships, and their disruptors would operate very well, too.

Incidentally, where did you get the 30,000 ships? Does that count fighters or just capital ships?

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-09-25 10:08pm

rember that the earth alience has 30,000 plus ships so that 150 to 1 and thats just one race

Before the Earth-Minbari War they may have had that many ships, though the bulk would be ships like Olympuses and other smaller classes. At the end of the war the Minbari had destroyed almost every single vessel the Earth Alliance had, as well as the infrastructure to rebuild said fleet. At the time given, the EA had still not completely recovered from the losses of the war. It was not until the time of the Drakh attack on Earth that they had sufficiently rebuilt so that a loss of 240-hastily recalled and fielded destroyers and countless other classes of ships was not a crippling loss to their total naval strength.

The Earth Alliance at this point have not fully developed artificial gravity or gravimetric engine technology, though given the introduction of the Warlock it is likely they had almost cracked it before the formation of the ISA. This limits there ships to several G acceleration rates at most, and means that if they want to get some where fast they use Hyperspace. Even with this lower rate of acceleration, as demonstrated in "Severed Dreams" even something as massive as an Omega can turn relatively fast on its own axis even while maintaining spin on the rotating section. The physical stresses of such a maneuever would be quite high, but it means that even though they won't be able to keep up with a faster target they can rotate to keep their main guns on target. The active interceptor systems on the EA ships will be able to intercept some of the incoming disrupter pulses and torpedoes, and passive systems might be able to absorb/redirect what energy does land. The cloaking device will be a big problem, but the interceptor system should still react as normal to an incoming volley of pulses/torpedoes given the delay between the cloak dropping and the ship firing.

At the time specified, the EA is no match what-so-ever for the fleet of Romulan ships. At most there are 200 Omegas at this point in time, and individually they are inferior to a Warbird. I am ignoring weapon output and defensive capabilities for now, and even though I believe all capital ships in B5 sling and take MT-level firepower...that isn't going to help in this case.

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-09-25 10:33pm

You underestimate the advantages that the Romulans have. Namely in protection and firepower. It is unclear how well their cloaking devices would work, but I'm guessing that they would be given away by the Romulan use of singularities in their warp cores. Their torpedoes, however, would be absolutely devestatingly effective against B5 ships, and their disruptors would operate very well, too.

Do Warbirds even use torpedoes? I can not recall offhand any incident where they used anything but disruptors. That aside, why are you saying said torpedoes will be devastating against B5 ships? If they are similiar to photon torpedeos then they release their energy in the form of EM-radiation, of which we have no estimates on how much the defenses on a B5 ship can endure. If the Black Star was 5 km away from the point of detonation of the nuclear devices, she was subjected to and suffered no damage from an EM-intensity of 2.67e8 MJ/m^2. A proximity detonation from a torpedo would have an intensity within the same range. Also, the armor/hull of the ships are not natural formations and would be designed to minimize the effects of landed energy. Controlled ablation coupled with directed EM fields (the so-called Plasma Webs) could help redirect landed energy away from the interior of the ship, and even something like a 50 MT torpedo detonating against the hull would cause localized damage to the section impacted. This is where the sheer size of most B5 vessels would come into play, as they can take large amounts of damage (like the 200 meter long scar on an OCD in "Severed Dreams") before being totally destroyed.

I am not saying I think an OCD equals a Romulan Warbird, but I am saying I think you are vast underestimating the capabilities of all B5 ships, etc.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-25 10:44pm

1. Warbirds use plasma torpedoes, which are by all accounts more powerful than the ones the Federation uses. They would be devastating because 2 MT can destroy a Sharlin class cruiser at a distance. Plasma torpedoes are much more powerful than that. The sheer scale of B5 vessels did not protect them from the 2 MT hits that utterly destroyed a Sharlin class cruiser, and the EA has no more than a few hundred Omega class destroyers, which are no match for a Warbird.

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-09-25 11:20pm

1. Warbirds use plasma torpedoes, which are by all accounts more powerful than the ones the Federation uses. They would be devastating because 2 MT can destroy a Sharlin class cruiser at a distance. Plasma torpedoes are much more powerful than that. The sheer scale of B5 vessels did not protect them from the 2 MT hits that utterly destroyed a Sharlin class cruiser, and the EA has no more than a few hundred Omega class destroyers, which are no match for a Warbird.

The Black Star absorbed a few kT at most from each nuclear device used against her, and did so without taking any visible damage. As I stated before, at one frame after the nukes detonated there is no visible change to or damage inflicted upon the outer surface of the Black Star. This is significant because the initial EM-burst, the 50% of the total energy not radiated into the asteroid, will transit the distance between its point of origin and be absorbed by any material impacted in the time between frame 0 and frame 1. Since we see no such change, we know that the EM-burst did not cause any damage.

A full second later, a shockwave (composed of the partially vaporized asteroid the nuke was mounted upon) impacts and overwhelms the Black Star completely. Said shockwave is significantly more energetic than one would expect given the total energy involved, but we will ignore that for now. When the scene clears we are shown the damage to the Black Star, which consists of a impact site on the main body and the vaporization of the right weapon fin and adjacent lower fin. The damage is consistent with a number of high velocity impacts, as well as perhaps an internal malfunction...like a charged weapon mount being penetrated through an open gunport and suffering a catastrophic failure. Despite being hit by a shockwave that covered its entire facing surface area, the damage is localized to those described points only. The ship is still relatively intact, and for all we know still battleworthy.

The second nuke follows the formula of the first, and after the shockwave has passed the ship still seems to be relatively intact. It doesn't begin to break up, except for a trailing edge of debris from the vaporized section of the lower right fin. In fact, if the ship had not exploded from its reactor going critical it may have still been spaceworthy.

Basically it amounts to this, a 2 MT nuke detonated at the same range without the asteroid to create a shockwave would not have caused the same effect upon the Black Star. She would have absorbed a handful of kT at most, but over her entire facing surface area not in a single strike enabling penetration or even damage. Simply saying any weapon of 2 MT or greater will destroy the Black Star is as flawed as me saying any hit on an ISD of a few dozen kTs (the asteroid that impacted the shieldless ISD in the field) will destroy the bridge tower.

Rathark · Post by **Rathark** » 2002-09-25 11:37pm

While I knew that the Romulans would not last forever, the question remains as to who would provide the "killing blow". Would the Romulans remain invincible until the First Ones stepped in? Could the Minbari manage it (in superior numbers)?

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-09-26 01:06pm

Dead on Arrival wrote:
You underestimate the advantages that the Romulans have. Namely in protection and firepower. It is unclear how well their cloaking devices would work, but I'm guessing that they would be given away by the Romulan use of singularities in their warp cores. Their torpedoes, however, would be absolutely devestatingly effective against B5 ships, and their disruptors would operate very well, too.
Do Warbirds even use torpedoes? I can not recall offhand any incident where they used anything but disruptors. That aside, why are you saying said torpedoes will be devastating against B5 ships? If they are similiar to photon torpedeos then they release their energy in the form of EM-radiation, of which we have no estimates on how much the defenses on a B5 ship can endure. If the Black Star was 5 km away from the point of detonation of the nuclear devices, she was subjected to and suffered no damage from an EM-intensity of 2.67e8 MJ/m^2. A proximity detonation from a torpedo would have an intensity within the same range. Also, the armor/hull of the ships are not natural formations and would be designed to minimize the effects of landed energy. Controlled ablation coupled with directed EM fields (the so-called Plasma Webs) could help redirect landed energy away from the interior of the ship, and even something like a 50 MT torpedo detonating against the hull would cause localized damage to the section impacted. This is where the sheer size of most B5 vessels would come into play, as they can take large amounts of damage (like the 200 meter long scar on an OCD in "Severed Dreams") before being totally destroyed.

I am not saying I think an OCD equals a Romulan Warbird, but I am saying I think you are vast underestimating the capabilities of all B5 ships, etc.

Oh my god this is rediculous, Dead ON Arrival you actually believe that the OCD can absorb up to 50 MT devices on their hull and the explosion would just cause localised damage? HOLY mother of god, i've never seen so much BS'ing in all my life.

Interceptors intercepting disruptors? Those stupid interceptor battery turrets have to rotate, lock on, and then fire their really really slow pulses towards the target, the disruptor pulse would be cutting a huge hole into the hull by the time the thing even started to turn and lock on. Lock on I should say, lock onto what? its locking onto a stream of energy.

As for the 50 MT explosion going off against the hull, I don't even know what to say to this,
the shadow battle crabs were killed by KT energy in ITB, but a shitty OCD can take 50 MT on the hull?

The power output of the warbirds so much higher in relation to anything in B5 that it would almost appear that the OCD's and sharlins were made up of cardboard or wax when they get hit by the huge energy outputs of the warbirds.

Not to mention, the excessive range advantage that the warbirds have, my god

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-09-26 01:09pm

Rathark wrote:While I knew that the Romulans would not last forever, the question remains as to who would provide the "killing blow". Would the Romulans remain invincible until the First Ones stepped in? Could the Minbari manage it (in superior numbers)?

when the first ones fire their KT range weapons at shields designed to take multiple federation photon torpedo's all in succession?

Defensive systems build and designed to repel weapons of the KT range? They would last a microsecond in battle

Rathark · Post by **Rathark** » 2002-09-27 01:18am

Omega-13 wrote:the shadow battle crabs were killed by KT energy in ITB,

"In the Beginning"?

Aren't you thinking of the Black Star? Or did you mean ITF ("Into the Fire")?

BTW, I'm not certain about the firepower of Vorlon dreadnoughts. However, it seems clear that the Vorlons have sacrificed speed and maneuverability for armour and firepower. The battlecrab in "Interludes and Examinations" was destroyed by a much smaller warship. A dreadnought is a few orders of magnitude more massive. And, when scaled up a few more orders of magnitude, Vorlon weaponry can at the very least devastate the surface of a planet.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-09-27 04:34am

If he's thinking of the D'Deridex warbirds, they don't use plasma torpedoes... they use photon torpedos. The TOS warbird is the one with the plasma torpedo launcher. 32 megaton torps are prolly going to fuck up the average EA ship, but then their beam weapons should do the same to Romulan ships. Also, note that the cloak will only be a problem for the first few seconds of the engagement: the D'Deridex class doesn't seem to slip in and out of cloak, this is a trick that the smaller birds of prey seem to prefer (maybe due to the power requirement of cloaking something that big?)

Anyway, should be an interesting fight... I haven't seen enough B5 calcs to know where the EA ships would stack up.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-27 06:09am

beyond hope: You got a quote on that Romulan Warbirds (TNG onwards) using Photon Torps idea.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-09-27 09:47pm

arrrrgh... nope, I've been looking and I can't find anything official to support it. My bad.

m112880 · Post by **m112880** » 2002-10-09 06:33pm

How would the warbirds do againts the whitestar fleet?

Moonshadow · Post by **Moonshadow** » 2002-10-10 02:36am

i believe the only weakness the B5 ships would have are the fact they are shieldless. Their weapons are quite powerful, especially the heavy Beam Weapons on the Omegas.I believe with strength in numbers Omegas can be a real threat to the Warbird. Also the Vorlon Battleships would be a very dangerous threat to even a shielded Trek ship. It would be an interesting fight to see.