I think I found two universes Trek could beat

[HemlockGrey]

1) Asimov's Robot universe

2) Firefly

[Alyeska]

Trek can also defeat Freespace, Wing Commander, Space Above and Beyond, Homeworld, Babylon Five....

You act as if Trek is extremely weak. You forget the likes of the Borg and S8472.

[Evil Jerk]

The Borg are weak unless they face the specific technologies that they have an upper hand against, and S8472 are marginally strong cowards, I wouldn't flaunt them too much..

[Alyeska]

The Borg are weak unless they face the specific technologies that they have an upper hand against, and S8472 are marginally strong cowards, I wouldn't flaunt them too much..

So in a debate where it is This vs That and there can be only one winner, S8472 will simply run away untill all their ships are destroyed?



There is such a thing as using your brain. In a Vs debate, victory is everything and it is generally assumed that both sides will fight to the death. I can lay claim that the Federation can defeat the Empire simply because the Empire is evil and in both Trek and Wars the badguys are always defeated. Not exactly a logical line of reasoning.

[Evil Jerk]

The Borg are weak unless they face the specific technologies that they have an upper hand against, and S8472 are marginally strong cowards, I wouldn't flaunt them too much..

So in a debate where it is This vs That and there can be only one winner, S8472 will simply run away untill all their ships are destroyed?



There is such a thing as using your brain. In a Vs debate, victory is everything and it is generally assumed that both sides will fight to the death. I can lay claim that the Federation can defeat the Empire simply because the Empire is evil and in both Trek and Wars the badguys are always defeated. Not exactly a logical line of reasoning.

We have only one precident for how S8472 would act in a war that isn't a 100% victory for them - they run away.
You can't say that S8472 would fight to the death because they don't, otherwise people could just say the Federation would use Genesis Devices on everybody and win, or some crap like that.

[Darth Wong]

There is such a thing as using your brain. In a Vs debate, victory is everything and it is generally assumed that both sides will fight to the death.

What? Where the fuck did this come from? Who assumes that both sides will fight to the death? That's ridiculous. Nobody EVER fights to the death! They fight to the point where their resolve is exceeded by their fear. In some cases, this happens earlier than in others (see France in WW2 ).

[HemlockGrey]

I dispute that Homeworld bit. Heavy Cruisers are fucking HUGE.

[Alyeska]

There is such a thing as using your brain. In a Vs debate, victory is everything and it is generally assumed that both sides will fight to the death.

What? Where the fuck did this come from? Who assumes that both sides will fight to the death? That's ridiculous. Nobody EVER fights to the death! They fight to the point where their resolve is exceeded by their fear. In some cases, this happens earlier than in others (see France in WW2 ).

If your going to take side factors in, then in almost every case where the Empire finds the ST galaxy, the Empire looses. You know how? Their dedicating resources to the ST galaxy dooms them because now the Rebellion has fewer ships to defeat.

As I said, if your going to take such things into account, then you have to take them ALL into account.

[Alyeska]

I dispute that Homeworld bit. Heavy Cruisers are fucking HUGE.

And they are slow as shit with terrible weapons range.

[Stormbringer]

There is such a thing as using your brain. In a Vs debate, victory is everything and it is generally assumed that both sides will fight to the death.

What? Where the fuck did this come from? Who assumes that both sides will fight to the death? That's ridiculous. Nobody EVER fights to the death! They fight to the point where their resolve is exceeded by their fear. In some cases, this happens earlier than in others (see France in WW2 ).

Man, making fun of the french is like beating up a cripple. It's too easy.

And S8472 would never stay in a fight anyway. They're the French of the trek-verse.

In general most species won't fight to the death. There are few species I can think of that have fought to the death or been willing to. The Borg or the (fundie) Klingons might well fight to the death. Much more often though, the only way a fight will be to the death is if the victorious side wants it to be so.

[HemlockGrey]

And they are slow as shit with terrible weapons range.

And this is different from Trek ships...how?


BTW, when we pit the Empire against the Feds, we don't say the Feds have the Klingons and Romulans and Borg all beating up on them, do we? Or the Maquis, or the Dominion, or...

[Mr Bean]

(see France in WW2 ).

See I said see France in any War but if you just want to limit it to WW2 ok

If your going to take side factors in, then in almost every case where the Empire finds the ST galaxy, the Empire looses. You know how? Their dedicating resources to the ST galaxy dooms them because now the Rebellion has fewer ships to defeat.

As I said, if your going to take such things into account, then you have to take them ALL into account.

Not quite...
Take 30 ISDs away from Kuat, Know what? They still have over fifty ISDs plus another 100 assorted other Capships

The Fleet at Endor was roughly twenty-thirty ships on the Rebel side and Papy was able to yank 30 Ships out of his Rear and COMPLETLY surpize the Rebels(They though where elsewhere)
If you can do it once you can do it agian

Back to Kuat, There is no way in Bobnation you could get enough Rebel ships that deeply into Imps space to even get 1/2 of the Ships typicaly at Kuat
Considering the Grav-well Generators, the Tons of Golan III's and IVs, the TL on the docks themsleves and the spartial location of Kuat no way any Rebel can get within pissing Distance without facing a force between six to twenty times its size and power...

So anyway, Kuat, 30 ISDs, maybe 100 Support ships too,
Courscant's Sector Fleet(Its Sole Duity is to guard the Captial), with the fact you need Rouge-Squadren( ) or an Death Star to get within a few light hours and live of that planet, you could easly pull 12 ISDs off of the Defenses and add them to the War-Effort
Considering the time that the Empire was in power plus Peollons 25k ISD figure we find that they have a minium of 2 ISDs PER DAY and and a max of 17 PER DAY can be built if not crewed and shiped off

Considering even using BASE figures(15.8 Teraton shielding) 144 ISDs would be more than enough to take on any two AQ powers at the same time or any 3 with diffuclty using BASE MINIUM FIGURES, You know? If we kick SW in the family jewels and assume so many negatives its not even funny then run a calc to find a minum(15.8 Teratons) of an ISD MKIIs shield

Then use Mid to High Range ST figures to be fair and we find even 100 Defiants VS 1 ISD still lasts nearly a mintue long before they get it and thats saying somthing

If we are logical and how one normaly is for debates(Instead of Accomdating of ST at nearly every turn(Except bloody supertechobabble of the week crap) and say use Mid range figures we find

215,595,703/4000=53,898 seconds/60=898minutes/60=14.97 Hours of Direct Hammering to take down a section of ISD shields by 100 Defanits

Yep 100 Ships VS one ISD and you have time to order pizza and catch a nap

Meaing based on Mid-ranged Figure it takes 2,000 Ships per ISD to make it a fair fight....

[HemlockGrey]

Back on topic...how would the Feds fare, against, say, the Outer Worlds or the Alliance?

No spoilers from anything past Caves of Steel, plz!!

[Alyeska]

And they are slow as shit with terrible weapons range.

And this is different from Trek ships...how?


BTW, when we pit the Empire against the Feds, we don't say the Feds have the Klingons and Romulans and Borg all beating up on them, do we? Or the Maquis, or the Dominion, or...

A Homeworld heave cruiser can make no better then 250 meters a second. Thats not even Mach-1. We have seen Trek ships at much higher speeds (Reference First Contact)

[seanrobertson]

The Borg are weak unless they face the specific technologies that they have an upper hand against, and S8472 are marginally strong cowards, I wouldn't flaunt them too much..

No one that can build Borg-sized ships, conquer an area over 10,000 ly wide and travel at millions of c is "weak." Please be reasonable.

The Eights are also more than marginally strong. Even nine ships'
initial burst of firepower should've been enough to kill all life on
that Borg planet, and ultimately, even with a kind of chain-reaction,
the fact that they *can* destroy a planet is testament to their abilities.

Their cowardice is another matter, though. I partially agree there,
though I wouldn't count on them running unless you can damage or
destroy at least a dozen of their ships within a few minutes. (It might
help if your own ship is comparable in size to theirs...imagine how,
after six months of fighting the Borg and winning, it'd strike them to
encounter a ship that is, by all indications, a gnat in comparison;
only trouble is, that gnat utterly kicks your ass.)

[Alyeska]

Their cowardice is another matter, though. I partially agree there,
though I wouldn't count on them running unless you can damage or
destroy at least a dozen of their ships within a few minutes. (It might
help if your own ship is comparable in size to theirs...imagine how,
after six months of fighting the Borg and winning, it'd strike them to
encounter a ship that is, by all indications, a gnat in comparison;
only trouble is, that gnat utterly kicks your ass.)

That is a point that I have tried to make time and time again. S8472 was kick the shit out of the Borg for who knows how long and IF the Borg destroyed S8472 ships, they had to use MASSIVE numbers of cubes to do so. Suddenly one lone ship that for all intents and purposes is even weaker then the Borg ships suddenly kills not just 1 Bioship in combat, but multiple Bioships at once and survives. That is a threat. Imagine if the Borg ships now hold this capability... Indeed S8472 was under the impression that Voyager had allied with the Borg. The Borg have millions of ships (type, varried). Now all the Borg ships have the ability, so thinks S8472, to kill the Bioships. They saw no other reasonable alternative then to run rather then be destroyed outright.

When fighting the Empire, that will be a completely different situation. No Borg nano-probes, etc... It will be a "fair" fight in which their is no drastic change in one sides firepower.

[seanrobertson]

Man, making fun of the french is like beating up a cripple. It's too easy.

And S8472 would never stay in a fight anyway. They're the French of the trek-verse.

In general most species won't fight to the death. There are few species I can think of that have fought to the death or been willing to. The Borg or the (fundie) Klingons might well fight to the death. Much more often though, the only way a fight will be to the death is if the victorious side wants it to be so.

Again, with respects, I think you're context-dropping here. The Eights
aren't at all analogous to the French circa WWII.

The Eights bailed on their attack after VGR found a way to kill about
a dozen of them in a matter of a few minutes. The Eights no doubt
thought VGR was no threat: she's far smaller than any other ship
the Eights had encountered (all Borg craft), her power is much lower,
etc. Yet this small ships suddenly opened a can of whup-ass on them,
indicating that their understanding of VGR was VERY incomplete.

Factor this in with the fact that the Eights (and much of the rest of
the Quadrant--remember Arturis?) knew VGR was allied with the Borg,
and were about to share the know-how of easily killing bioships with
the Borg (thanks to reading Kes' thoughts) and...how does that constitute cowardice? I grant you, it was stupid of them to simply not send a few more ships and destroy VGR, but from their perspective, things could get really ugly, really fast. They're cowards in a pragmatic sense, but
to think they're gutless wonders is glossing over the episode something
serious.

[Darth Wong]

Again, with respects, I think you're context-dropping here. The Eights aren't at all analogous to the French circa WWII.

The Eights bailed on their attack after VGR found a way to kill about
a dozen of them in a matter of a few minutes.

Did the Americans, Canadians, and Brits bail on D-Day after the Germans found a way to kill thousands of them in a matter of a few minutes?

S8472 encountered a weapon which leveled the playing field. It did NOT tip it vastly to the other side; Voyager still had to score direct hits or close-proximity hits, they could still kill Voyager with a direct hit, and Voyager is not tiny compared to a bioship. What they proved in "Scorpion" is that they don't have the balls to fight on a level playing field.

They're classic bullies; tough when they're beating up on "the weak" as they call them, but pussies when somebody makes them stand up and fight.

The Eights no doubt thought VGR was no threat: she's far smaller than any other ship the Eights had encountered (all Borg craft), her power is much lower, etc. Yet this small ships suddenly opened a can of whup-ass on them, indicating that their understanding of VGR was VERY incomplete.

Since they had telepathic knowledge of the weapon being developed on Voyager and were chasing it for that reason, this seems doubtful. If anything, it should have redoubled their efforts to destroy it and the weapon, since it was the only one and they knew the Borg wanted it. A dozen casualties is no reason to run away screaming like little girls.

Factor this in with the fact that the Eights (and much of the rest of
the Quadrant--remember Arturis?) knew VGR was allied with the Borg,
and were about to share the know-how of easily killing bioships with
the Borg (thanks to reading Kes' thoughts) and...how does that constitute cowardice?

12 casualties. They call off an entire war for 12 casualties. That's cowardice. Even the French weren't that bad.

I grant you, it was stupid of them to simply not send a few more ships and destroy VGR, but from their perspective, things could get really ugly, really fast.

Yeah, they might have ended up suffering TWO dozen casualties. Call off the war!

They're cowards in a pragmatic sense, but to think they're gutless wonders is glossing over the episode something serious.

I don't think so. Voyager only levelled the playing field. They showed that they don't have the balls to fight on a level playing field. That IS cowardice by any stretch of the imagination.

[Darth Wong]

What? Where the fuck did this come from? Who assumes that both sides will fight to the death? That's ridiculous. Nobody EVER fights to the death! They fight to the point where their resolve is exceeded by their fear. In some cases, this happens earlier than in others (see France in WW2 ).

If your going to take side factors in, then in almost every case where the Empire finds the ST galaxy, the Empire looses. You know how? Their dedicating resources to the ST galaxy dooms them because now the Rebellion has fewer ships to defeat.

As I said, if your going to take such things into account, then you have to take them ALL into account.

Don't be ridiculous. You are trying to say that I am introducing an irrelevant factor by mentioning the fact that no one ever fights to the death, and that this opens the door to any and every other "side factor?" The stupidity of the "fight to the death" scenario is not a side factor; it is an inherently unrealistic aspect of the scenario itself.

Besides, I don't see how the diversion of <0.1% of the Empire's forces will cause the Rebellion to win. The Rebellion never won through numbers; it won because the Emperor took a foolish chance.

[Stravo]

Let's face it, the Eights were introduced as an uber race (plot device) and were quickly discarded only making an occasional appearance later sans much of that uberness....BTW it's interesting that Warsies only bring in the Empire on these vs debates and Trekkies trot out EVERY RACE THAT HAS EVER APPEARED on Trek. Most have just given up on saying the Feds can make a stand on their own.

I was never a fan of the eights, they were sort of a cheap Borg killing race that never had the coolness of the Borg.

[starfury]

and the warsie often had to use ultra-low end estimates and to not use every superweapon that the SW universe has.

[Cpt_Frank]

Well with all these handicaps the Wars victory is even more humiliating for trek

[The Nomad]

You assume that USA and allies would have fought if Germany had had 1000 tons of overkill biogenic plague viruses or 500 100 MT nukes mounted on long-range rockets ?

You underestimate the drastic change in the balance of power. I understand the reaction of the Eights, especially if you consider that you can destroy an ennemy like the Borg with ease and then *shazaam* a 200-m long Federation scoutship destroys 12 of your ships in a split-second and has probably already given its ubertech to your worst foe. Comparable to seeing 10 Death Stars approaching your homeworld, IMHO.

[Carcharodon]

Generally speaking, pragmatic people don't fight wars without tangible reasons, even in cases where they could probably win. The Eights were never thinking in terms of an actual war because they really didn't have much at stake. Why would they want to fight a real war with an inferior dimension so completely alien to them? They weren't really conquerers the way the Borg were. The only reason they were beating up on the Borg was because it was a freebie for them. Even the French weren't adverse to military adventures like that. But when the hobby ceased to be amusing, they presumably found other things to do. That's not cowardice, only operant conditioning. In the absence of any real benefits, why countenance any costs?

VGR would only have been a threat if there was a good chance the Borg still intended at that point to press the fight back into fluidic space. Yet the Borg were demoralized, humiliated, and probably in no condition to attack anyone for a while even if they had wanted to. Even then, they would probably opt for easier prey in their own galaxy. The Eights just weren't worth it, even with nanoprobe torps.

8472 may have a short attention span, but I'm not sure we should be calling them "cowards" just because they don't act like King Fortinbras and attack Poland over a sliver of ground too small to hide the bodies of the slain.

[seanrobertson]

Did the Americans, Canadians, and Brits bail on D-Day after the Germans found a way to kill thousands of them in a matter of a few minutes?

A valid point, as always...

Of course, the Allies had suffered tremendous losses before, so
the whole concept of losing men wasn't too alien to them. The Eights
had probably sustained losses to the Borg, but apparently not amounting
to much. (Would you believe that some people claim the very first
bioship we see had been damaged by a drone's freaking HAND
disruptor? E-gads. So drones mount cube-level weaponry or better...LOL.)

However, your point stands. The fact that 8472 was xenophobic and
not used to losing doesn't change the fact that they are as you say,
cowardly bullies.

I should qualify my position. My post was somewhat of a knee-jerk
reaction to Evil Jerk's contention, that the Eights are little more than
a bunch of semi-strong cowards. Given the context of the thread, my
main concern was that the Eights wouldn't face harsh enough resistance
from most popular non-Wars aliens *to* make this cowardice evident.
But I imagine I read too much into Mr. Evil's statement

S8472 encountered a weapon which leveled the playing field. It did NOT tip it vastly to the other side; Voyager still had to score direct hits or close-proximity hits, they could still kill Voyager with a direct hit, and Voyager is not tiny compared to a bioship. What they proved in "Scorpion" is that they don't have the balls to fight on a level playing field.

Hmm...yeah. I have to concede that. It would've been a more level
playing field. It wasn't as if VGR made herself and the Borg suddenly
invulnerable. (I feel like that Stormtrooper saying, "These aren't the
droids we're looking for...")

I'd bandied around the idea that, given that those first dozen casualties
or so are perhaps their most sound defeat in history, their reaction was
something other than what it was...but that's really a red herring. It
doesn't really matter. They still withdraw all of their forces when pressing
the attack could've easily won the day.

They're classic bullies; tough when they're beating up on "the weak" as they call them, but pussies when somebody makes them stand up and fight.
Since they had telepathic knowledge of the weapon being developed on Voyager and were chasing it for that reason, this seems doubtful. If anything, it should have redoubled their efforts to destroy it and the weapon, since it was the only one and they knew the Borg wanted it. A dozen casualties is no reason to run away screaming like little girls.

12 casualties. They call off an entire war for 12 casualties. That's cowardice. Even the French weren't that bad.

Hehe...yeah. I can't argue that. If they'd known that killing VGR would've prevented the Borg from getting it, they easily could've won by scoring
one more hit.

I grant you, it was stupid of them to simply not send a few more ships and destroy VGR, but from their perspective, things could get really ugly, really fast.

Yeah, they might have ended up suffering TWO dozen casualties. Call off the war!
[/quote]

LOL I was thinking more than that...a leap in logic of sorts
on their part; i.e., if VGR has this weapon now, the Borg will get it
in short order, especially since it only entailed a pretty simple modification to existing Borg "weapons." If the Borg had been so armed, they could've turned the odds around quickly (1 cube to several bioships instead of the other way around). With the mines they were making out of those
ugly Lore ships, the Borg would've been able to give them a solid
kick in the ass.

That doesn't help demonstrate that the Eights aren't cowards, however.
It actually kills that case. They could've been running away not only
from a handful of losses but *theoretical* losses, based on little more
than panic. Irrational fear is what it is, though I do understand why
they were so freaked out by the sudden change of fortune.

I don't think so. Voyager only levelled the playing field. They showed that they don't have the balls to fight on a level playing field. That IS cowardice by any stretch of the imagination.

You're right, of course. As I think I mentioned earlier, my main concern
is getting them out *on* a level playing field. If the other team can't
even hurt them badly, they won't be shrieking cowards.

It reminds me of the trolls that pop up from time to time and say,
"Well, Star Wars weaponz R all WEAK! The Culture has more power than them!" It's context-dropping; up against about anything else, SW weapons are more powerful by a long shot.

The Eights are more than a little fickle when you can
bloody their nose, but that's assuming they're in relatively
the same circumstances--up against a foe that can finally hurt them.
Most of the shows/movies mentioned in this thread don't have
many weapons that could thoroughly kick 8472's ass. To see
their relative cowardice or for it to make a difference, something
along those lines is necessary.