"Magic"?

Mr. Mister · Post by **Mr. Mister** » 2002-10-06 10:23pm

Something Cyril said in another thread got me to wondering what "magic" is the best. For instance, if a Jedi Knight and an Asha'man (from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series) with equal skill in their respective power sources just stood there 10 paces apart and tried to blast each other, who'd win? Or if you were trying to use mystical abilities to enhance a construction project (say, make a rope bridge over a gorge able to hold the same amount of weight as solid earth would), would you rather a wizard like the sort from the Harry Potter books, or the sort from Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea books? Would it be better to have abilities like those of Wolverine of the X-Men, who can only do one or two things because they're genetically coded, or to be able to Walk the Shadows like someone from Roger Zelazny's Amber books, where your abilities can be blocked by anything from memory loss to where you are, or even (as the later books suggest), your external source of power deciding on its own to abandon you?

So, what type of non-technological ability is best?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-10-06 10:27pm

Magic. Magic is completely beyond reason, whereas the other power source you're speaking off has at least some limitations, whatever it is.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-06 10:27pm

hmm. In Harry Potter, duct tape a wizard's mouth and take his wand and he's toast.

Jedi don't have many ranged attacks other than lighting and telekinesis, do they?

Are X-men bulletproof? only a couple mutants are? hmm...

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-10-06 10:32pm

Mutations are pretty random in X-Men. Some are pretty powerful, like Xavier's son. But some mutations are crap. I mean a mutation could be to just be really hairy. No cool rays or agility or anything, just a lot of hair. Most special abilities that gives you a straight power, like magic, will be better than mutant powers because you don't know what you will get and the powers you do get are usually to narrow to be really useful in every case. You may be dang powerful or you could be the human chia pet.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-10-06 10:41pm

How about magic in Amber, besides shadow-shifting and the rest?

Would it work in SW or is SW too tech oriented? Or would the Force show that you can use magic in SW?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-06 11:01pm

hmm. In Harry Potter, duct tape a wizard's mouth and take his wand and he's toast.

Not quite, Fear and terror can still shock some magic out of them to save themsleves

Earthen Sea Magic seems to be quite intresting though thiers limits on praticly everything

Jedi Get Yslamari and them=fucked

However X-men is the best of both worlds

Why? There are quite a few magical artifacts in thier along with the fact one can force specfic mutants if one wants

IE best of both worlds,
Ther is still Magic(IE Juggernaught) but still kick as powers as well
One I remebering hearing about from somone who watched the WB Kiddy X-men verison was the fact they even had Akira Style Telekenisis(Which besides letting you become as Lazy as possible... Walking? who needs it!, also is damn useful aginst most of your possible oppents)

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-07 01:48am

Asha'man = balefire = bad for a Jedi

Nuff said

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-07 03:04am

How bout magic as in Lord of the Rings scale? I say that LOTR magic can wipe out any of the rpeviously listed, but then again that possibility may disqualify it from this discussion or something.

I guess magic's potency depends on which movie/game/book your talking about.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-10-07 03:12am

Dude, magic from Amber will quite easily overcome anything from LotR.

The ability to collapse entire universes comes standard to 2nd generation Amberites.

3rd generation Amberites can do it with a bit more effort.

Dworkin CREATED the entire multi-verse/shadow.

Oh and Louis, whom is one of my characters with a Psy of 0 (ie Amber level) would still give Saruman a decent run for his money.

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2002-10-07 09:11am

None of that matters.

What matters is how you weild your ability. If you know how to combine skills and "magic" in a lethal manner, nobody can stop you. You must outwit your opponent in order to prevail.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-10-07 10:41am

Overall, Magic is the most verstile of all of the none technology powers. But one has to training in order to use it correctly. But "superpowers" tend to have more ofensive punch and deals with attribute augumentation that you don't see usally with magic. Psionics is very simalier to magic, But comes naturally to people who have it. But is less verstile. So I'll go with magic also.

But in the above scenio's, I think a jedi is a form of magic. Magic ability being part genitic trait is nothing new. And the force exists outside of the jedi themselves. Which is usally one of the main differences between magic and psionics.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2002-10-07 02:41pm

Mxyzptlk will kick the shit out of any other magic user. He'd probably do it literally, too.

Actually, if I got to have superpowers (read: magic), it'd be an easy choice for me:

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-07 08:23pm

Shinova wrote:How bout magic as in Lord of the Rings scale? I say that LOTR magic can wipe out any of the rpeviously listed, but then again that possibility may disqualify it from this discussion or something.

I guess magic's potency depends on which movie/game/book your talking about.

Actually, a Asha'man or Aes Sedai would probably make mincemeat out of most Lord of the Rings spellcasters. Balefire literally obliterated portions of reality. Nothing with the exception of heartstone can survive. And some of the other powers are very very devastating as well.

Mr. Mister · Post by **Mr. Mister** » 2002-10-07 08:27pm

Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but did Gandalf or Saruman ever actually do much in the way of magic in the Lord of the Rings? Even in the movie, where they did more magic than in the book, they didn't do much of it. I mean, Gandalf is really cool, and an excellent character, and it is established that he's some sort of sorcerer - but did Tolkien ever actually define what sorts of things, besides not die, he could do with that sorcery?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-07 08:29pm

Mr. Mister wrote:Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but did Gandalf or Saruman ever actually do much in the way of magic in the Lord of the Rings? Even in the movie, where they did more magic than in the book, they didn't do much of it. I mean, Gandalf is really cool, and an excellent character, and it is established that he's some sort of sorcerer - but did Tolkien ever actually define what sorts of things, besides not die, he could do with that sorcery?

Not really. We have his ability to light up a cavern, Saruman's voice, and some other stuff, but mostly, Gandalf seems to rely on his wisdom instead of his magic.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-07 09:49pm

IG-88E wrote:
Mr. Mister wrote:Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but did Gandalf or Saruman ever actually do much in the way of magic in the Lord of the Rings? Even in the movie, where they did more magic than in the book, they didn't do much of it. I mean, Gandalf is really cool, and an excellent character, and it is established that he's some sort of sorcerer - but did Tolkien ever actually define what sorts of things, besides not die, he could do with that sorcery?
Not really. We have his ability to light up a cavern, Saruman's voice, and some other stuff, but mostly, Gandalf seems to rely on his wisdom instead of his magic.

As the Valar intended. He wasn't supposed to match Sauron with brute force though they probably could have.

And aside from the dark magics used by Morogoth or Sauron most of Middle Earths magic is preservative or curative rather than destructive.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-10-07 10:01pm

Domination magic could likely kick the shit out of Aes Sedai magic. Any bets?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-07 10:07pm

Balefire, nuff said.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-07 10:09pm

And Aes Sedai are relatively weak compared to the power of some channelers. And their actual attack skills are pathetic.

If you want to pit some WoT'ers against the Taken or their like, use daemane, Asha'man, Dreadlords, or the Forsaken.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-10-08 08:25am

Aes Sedei at the time of the Wheel of time are weak, they have forgotten many of their old skills, but they are coming back, along with new powers undremt of before. (The Abilty to restore a persons abilty to use the Source) Also while an Ashaman is more powerful than an aes Sedei one to one, an Aes Sedei can link with others, and the new power level, is not just the two powers added together but actually goes greater than that level.

Balefire is scary stuff, it not only takes something out of existence, but rewrites history, so thgey didn't exist to a certain point back in time, (Depending on the power of the wielder, and how much power was put into the Balefire.) everyone remember's what happened, but physical evidence is missing. (Example Rand is facing a Forsaken which has just killed his friends, he throws Balefire at the Forsaken and kills him. He gets back and the VERY dead friends are alive and well...)

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-08 08:46am

Skelron wrote:Aes Sedei at the time of the Wheel of time are weak, they have forgotten many of their old skills, but they are coming back, along with new powers undremt of before. (The Abilty to restore a persons abilty to use the Source) Also while an Ashaman is more powerful than an aes Sedei one to one, an Aes Sedei can link with others, and the new power level, is not just the two powers added together but actually goes greater than that level.

The thing is, Aes Sedai don't have very good combats skills. They've got fireballs, groundquakes, and some tricks with air.

Now on the other hand, Daemane and Asha'man specialize in killing powers. They literally blow people apart from the inside out. They also throw around lightening and fire. All of it one a much more massive scale than Aes Sedai.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-10-08 09:05am

Stormbringer wrote:[The thing is, Aes Sedai don't have very good combats skills. They've got fireballs, groundquakes, and some tricks with air.

Now on the other hand, Daemane and Asha'man specialize in killing powers. They literally blow people apart from the inside out. They also throw around lightening and fire. All of it one a much more massive scale than Aes Sedai.

Yes, on a one to one basis an Ashaman is more powerful. but Thirteen Linked Aes Sedai, including ones with the knowladge to weave lightning bolts... (And a few do) Will be more powerful, and do more spectacular stuff than Thirteen Ashamen. The Ashaman are however I agree better at killing than Aes Sedei, but they are not more powerful, the Aes Sedei are better in other areas.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-08 10:49am

Skelron wrote: Yes, on a one to one basis an Ashaman is more powerful. but Thirteen Linked Aes Sedai, including ones with the knowladge to weave lightning bolts... (And a few do) Will be more powerful, and do more spectacular stuff than Thirteen Ashamen. The Ashaman are however I agree better at killing than Aes Sedei, but they are not more powerful, the Aes Sedei are better in other areas.

Asha'man have more raw power. It's been explained over and over again that male channelers tend to be more powerful on average.

Other groups of female channelers have more power per person than Aes Sedai.

And of course a circle of thirteen is more powerful. I never said it wasn't.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-10-08 03:30pm

Balefire is powerful, but it isn't the end-all be all. It'll kill anything in one shot, but even it has limits; range, distance, it's fixed course. Of course, a circle might be able to take on a Taken, but I doubt it.

The Forsaken vs the Taken. I'd pay to see that.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-10-08 03:41pm

Empire Of Netheril. The comforts of modern day tech, entirely run by magic. Spaceflight, entirely by magic. Flying cities. Shit blowing up. Waving a hand and unleashing the power of a nuclear blast without the frost in your hair melting. This is managable, powerful magic.

Sure, you can have your multiverse-making magics, but I've got canonical data on how to compare a Primsatic Wall to technology, and it will be posted soon enough.

And yes. Always magic over all else. Sure, you can have sufficiently advanced technology, but that takes so much more effort than reading the Nether Scrolls.