Fourth Empire vs Lensman

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-01-21 06:36pm

Both are at the height of their power, except A) no bio-weapon for the 4thE, and B) the Children of the Lens aren't involved for the GP.

Have at it.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2004-01-21 06:58pm

Black Admiral wrote:Both are at the height of their power, except A) no bio-weapon for the 4thE, and B) the Children of the Lens aren't involved for the GP.

Do Lensmen ships carry any kind of defense against graviton warheads coming out of hyperspace on to of them ?

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-01-21 07:01pm

HRogge wrote:
Black Admiral wrote:Both are at the height of their power, except A) no bio-weapon for the 4thE, and B) the Children of the Lens aren't involved for the GP.
Do Lensmen ships carry any kind of defense against graviton warheads coming out of hyperspace on to of them ?

Not sure. I'll have to check Children of the Lens and Galactic Patrol for that one.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2004-01-21 07:19pm

They do have a way of detecting the Hyperspacial Tube, but thats probably something different. The typical Shield on a Vessel can take enough energy that space around it boils before finally going out. The Primaries on most ships are like an overloaded energy weapon that has to be swapped after each firing. They also use Planets, Negamatter Bombs and Needle Rays. Not sure about the Fourth Empire.

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-01-21 07:39pm

4thE info:

Their primary shipkiller is the hyper missile, which travels through hyperspace to it's set target. You can't intercept one or draw it off course: the only defence that works is a hypershield blocking the appropriate hyper band. Approximate range is thirty to forty light minutes.

The warheads used are M/AM (at least 10 GT apiece, gravitonic (creates a short-lived black hole; latest version, which only exists on paper at this point can engulf a planet and everything within 300,000 km of said planet), warp (drops what it affects into hyperspace), fusion, fission and chemical explosives. Several of the lighter gravitonics (Mk. 10s IIRC) can destroy a planet.

Beam weapons are shorter ranged but all FTL (range is about one light-minute IIRC); gravitonic disrupters (shatter atomic bonds and cause fission in the target) and warp beams (cylindrical hyper translation field) are the only ones I recall.

Their ships have two forms of FTL; hyper drive and Enchanch drive. E-drive's top speed is around 800 C, and hyper's top speed is about 3600 C. E-drive is used for tactical mobility and hyper for strategic mobility.

That's all I can remember. I'll have to dig out the books if you want more.

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2004-01-21 07:59pm

Excuse my ignorance but what series of books are the Fourth Empire from?

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-01-21 08:02pm

Mlenk wrote:Excuse my ignorance but what series of books are the Fourth Empire from?

The Empire from the Ashes trilogy by David Weber. The books are Mutineers' Moon, The Armageddon Inheritance, and Heirs of Empire.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2004-01-21 08:02pm

Mlenk wrote:Excuse my ignorance but what series of books are the Fourth Empire from?

Author is David Weber. Three books so far; Mutineers Moon, The Armageddon Inheritance, and Heirs of Empire. They were recenly released in an omnibus edition called Empire from the Ashes.

You can read MM here for free.

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2004-01-21 08:06pm

Looks interesting. Maybe I'll pick up those books from the library on my way home.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2004-01-22 09:15am

Okay, A little info about Lensmen.

Weapon strenght:
Primaries
I don't have access to the searcch engine on archive right now, but I do know there's a calc in there that puts original primaries in the TT range. If anyone wants to find it, the thread is calcing lensmen or lenmen techinical info, something along those lines. Note, this is the orginal primarie before medon conductors upped the power of all ship tech and the creation of superdreadnoughts that forcus all of thier power in a single primary.

Dodex missles range in power, the larger classes can shatter worlds, and the most powerful class can "almost votalize" planets. I belive thats a older term for vaporize, I'll check later.

Ship speeds:
Ships use inertless drives to go FTL in realspace, normal ships can go 60PPP(Parces Per Hour) cruising speed, and 90pph full out. Outside of galaxy travel is faster but I don't have the number right know. Also note, to people inside the ships going FTL feels mearly like going fast in your car (I think some sort of lens was mentioned). So they can react and fight in FTL, although I do not think the've tagged targets that aren't FTL themselves at the same time. But they can go any speed they want under there speed limits.

Hyperspace tubes offer the advantage of attacking anywhere at anytime, with the possible exception of inside the Birhat system shield. Although I doubt that. Hyperspace in lenemen seems to only exisit inside the tube, and is not decribed in the same manner as webers. Plus it can also open into other phyisical univereses. So there very different. But even if they were, the shield is not going to survive a heavy seige for long.

The big guns (Note: these have been used on fleets before, so planetiods are screwed).
Negaspheres: My favorite weapon, although not the most powerful. Smith's version of antimatter but instead of exploding both simply vanish and come in sizes from fighter carried to planet size (think a planetiod size warp grenade for Dahak fans). Added effect of producing harmful radiation filling parsecs of space.

Planets: Thats right, planets. Heavly shielded as to be invulnable to fleet weaponry, they are brought to the target in ftl, then relaesed fron ineartless, crashing into other worlds (Can't remember if this was used on fleets, I'll check). Only thing that can pentrate there shields in the Lensmen-verse are sunbeams.

Sunbeams: This is actaully a defensive weapon. The entire output of a sun forcused into a beam weapon to take out attacking planets. While not forcused enought to vaproize worlds like the death star, it can BDZ serval planets at the same time. Boskone, iircc found a way of corvering the same solar sytem with sunbeams from its neighbor suns as well.

N-space weapon: The amount of power a planet has when it crashes into something is a matter of its velocity, which, becuase of how FTL works, can't be changed when they turn the ftl off. However, the Patrol found another universe where objects there move faster when brought over here. So its just like a planet weapon, but when relaesed is still going ftl when it hits. Best way of using it is causing a supernova with it.

They're more tricks and stuff I could talk about, but I think this is enought. Hyperspace tubes allow fleets and superweapons unlimited access to anywhere, and while I'm sure the cost will be high in fleet battles, the patrol will have plenty to spare compared to the empires mere million planetiods (grand fleets have gotten up to 60-80 million iirc).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-01-22 09:26am

Darth_Shinji wrote: Sunbeams: This is actaully a defensive weapon. The entire output of a sun forcused into a beam weapon to take out attacking planets. While not forcused enought to vaproize worlds like the death star, it can BDZ serval planets at the same time. Boskone, iircc found a way of corvering the same solar sytem with sunbeams from its neighbor suns as well.

That's nice and calcable there. Using Sol, we get 3.827E26 W ~= 91 petatons per second.

While I should note that BDZ is used far more than it ought to be on here, Saxton puts the melt energy needed at E(melt) > 1.7 x 10^24 J, with the actual energy needed needing to be "perhaps a hundred or a thousand times more," here we do have BDZ energy delivered every second.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2004-01-22 01:16pm

Actually, the sunbeam creates 2 beams in opposing directions to balance the forces acting on the star. So it's only 45+ petatons

Also note that the sunbeam is FTL, striking planets near earth orbit near instanteanously. The sunbeam struck 6-7 planets and reduced them to melted cinders in a matter of seconds, even through shielding.

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-01-22 03:13pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:Hyperspace tubes offer the advantage of attacking anywhere at anytime, with the possible exception of inside the Birhat system shield. Although I doubt that. Hyperspace in lenemen seems to only exisit inside the tube, and is not decribed in the same manner as webers. Plus it can also open into other phyisical univereses. So there very different. But even if they were, the shield is not going to survive a heavy seige for long.

You do know how stupid trying to take on Birhat is, right? Aside from the system shield there's Mother, the Imperial Guard Flotilla (and 20xplanet vaping energy is minimum for their firepower), the cruiser, battleship and destroyer squadrons, as well as the PDCs and ODCs, planetary shields that could take that hit that was going to crack Earth's shield, etc.

The big guns (Note: these have been used on fleets before, so planetiods are screwed).
Negaspheres: My favorite weapon, although not the most powerful. Smith's version of antimatter but instead of exploding both simply vanish and come in sizes from fighter carried to planet size (think a planetiod size warp grenade for Dahak fans). Added effect of producing harmful radiation filling parsecs of space.

It was used once against fleets, and that was an immobile Boskone force during CoL. And besides which, how exactly is it going to penetrate a planetoid's shields in the first place?

Planets: Thats right, planets. Heavly shielded as to be invulnable to fleet weaponry, they are brought to the target in ftl, then relaesed fron ineartless, crashing into other worlds (Can't remember if this was used on fleets, I'll check). Only thing that can pentrate there shields in the Lensmen-verse are sunbeams.

Again, once, during Children of the Lens, against an immobile enemy force. Against a salvo of Mark 70s, or one Mark 90, those shields aren't going to help it, and neither will they help it gainst hyper-weaponry, since all that can block it is a hyper inhibitor.

They're more tricks and stuff I could talk about, but I think this is enought. Hyperspace tubes allow fleets and superweapons unlimited access to anywhere, and while I'm sure the cost will be high in fleet battles, the patrol will have plenty to spare compared to the empires mere million planetiods (grand fleets have gotten up to 60-80 million iirc).

'Unlimited access to anywhere'? Only until the 4thE starts chucking high-mark gravitonics back through. And besides which, there are far more ships than just planetoids in the 4thE fleet; over five hundred parasites per ship IIRC.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2004-01-22 08:41pm

Black Admiral wrote:
You do know how stupid trying to take on Birhat is, right? Aside from the system shield there's Mother, the Imperial Guard Flotilla (and 20xplanet vaping energy is minimum for their firepower), the cruiser, battleship and destroyer squadrons, as well as the PDCs and ODCs, planetary shields that could take that hit that was going to crack Earth's shield, etc.

Nothing the patrol couldn't take with time. Even if they can't simply tube a N-space weapon to the sun while the shield is on they can as soon as they crack it.

It was used once against fleets, and that was an immobile Boskone force during CoL. And besides which, how exactly is it going to penetrate a planetoid's shields in the first place?

Nothing in the book says they were imobile, in fact it says they only survived becuase they were inertless before the N-space weapons were used, and then just got into a formation. Not to mention a planetiod might as well not be moving to a oppenent going ftl.

And negaspheres have no problem going thru shields. The only problem might be tractor beams, but considering that because of how negaspheres work tractor's actaully pull towards the ship if set to push, so I doubt there be many survivors.

Again, once, during Children of the Lens, against an immobile enemy force. Against a salvo of Mark 70s, or one Mark 90, those shields aren't going to help it, and neither will they help it gainst hyper-weaponry, since all that can block it is a hyper inhibitor.

Except these planets are also traveling ftl untill right when they hit the target. If they catch a planetiod in realspace its toast. And unlike fleets, they can hit non-ftl targets without slowing untill the last moment. And there's no idication that hyper weaponry of the caliber needed exisits to take out a planet.

'Unlimited access to anywhere'? Only until the 4thE starts chucking high-mark gravitonics back through. And besides which, there are far more ships than just planetoids in the 4thE fleet; over five hundred parasites per ship IIRC.

Its highly unlikly fleet movements are going to put a tube right there in front of the enemy, and if they do, its becuase something nasty is coming thru. And they do close
And when 10 gt missles are a problem for parasites, they're not going to be a problem for Patrol ships.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2004-01-22 10:53pm

Black Admiral wrote:4thE info:

Their primary shipkiller is the hyper missile, which travels through hyperspace to it's set target. You can't intercept one or draw it off course: the only defence that works is a hypershield blocking the appropriate hyper band. Approximate range is thirty to forty light minutes.

To add to that they go 4000 times the speed of light.

The warheads used are M/AM (at least 10 GT apiece, gravitonic (creates a short-lived black hole; latest version, which only exists on paper at this point can engulf a planet and everything within 300,000 km of said planet), warp (drops what it affects into hyperspace), fusion, fission and chemical explosives. Several of the lighter gravitonics (Mk. 10s IIRC) can destroy a planet.

Actually I think it would be safe to say that the 4th Empire's missiles actually exceed 10 GT, maybe reaching into 100 GT. It's speculation but Weber always refers to the Imperium and Achultani missiles as 10000 MT, but when he mentions the Empire missiles they are "Measured in Gigatons." This can be taken to mean only 10 Gigatons, but the way Weber constantly refers to the previous missiles in Megaton range, even when they were in Gigaton, that the Empire's missiles are considerably stronger. Though it's almost impossible to say how much stronger though I will check that out.

Beam weapons are shorter ranged but all FTL (range is about one light-minute IIRC); gravitonic disrupters (shatter atomic bonds and cause fission in the target) and warp beams (cylindrical hyper translation field) are the only ones I recall.

Weber is rather off with his Energy weapons, at least for the Imperium as I haven't found anything to give power figures to the Empire. On one hand the Imperium energy weapons on a Battleship (80,000 ton ship) take a good 20 minutes to finish cutting through a mountain top, at least 600 meters wide. On the other hand a single beam from a Battleship blew a 1.6 kilometer hole in an Achulutani ship. And the warp beams are REALLY evil.

Their ships have two forms of FTL; hyper drive and Enchanch drive. E-drive's top speed is around 800 C, and hyper's top speed is about 3600 C. E-drive is used for tactical mobility and hyper for strategic mobility.

Actually, Enchanach is at 800 C, But Hyper seemed to top out at 2400 C, not 3600 C.

That's all I can remember. I'll have to dig out the books if you want more.

I've got Empire of Ashes and have been doing some research so if you want to know something you can ask me.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2004-01-22 10:56pm

Black Admiral wrote:'Unlimited access to anywhere'? Only until the 4thE starts chucking high-mark gravitonics back through. And besides which, there are far more ships than just planetoids in the 4thE fleet; over five hundred parasites per ship IIRC.

Each Planetoid for the Imperium carried 200 Parasites. For the Empire that might have gone up, but probably not up to 500.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2004-01-22 11:19pm

[quote="Captain_Cyran"][quote="Black Admiral"]
Actually I think it would be safe to say that the 4th Empire's missiles actually exceed 10 GT, maybe reaching into 100 GT. It's speculation but Weber always refers to the Imperium and Achultani missiles as 10000 MT, but when he mentions the Empire missiles they are "Measured in Gigatons." This can be taken to mean only 10 Gigatons, but the way Weber constantly refers to the previous missiles in Megaton range, even when they were in Gigaton, that the Empire's missiles are considerably stronger. Though it's almost impossible to say how much stronger though I will check that out.

[ quote] I think Achultani missles were called "nasty" and "heavy" in the books and no mention of 4th empire antimatter missles being specal in anyway. They seemed to forcus more on improving gravitic missles.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2004-01-22 11:55pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:
Captain_Cyran wrote: Actually I think it would be safe to say that the 4th Empire's missiles actually exceed 10 GT, maybe reaching into 100 GT. It's speculation but Weber always refers to the Imperium and Achultani missiles as 10000 MT, but when he mentions the Empire missiles they are "Measured in Gigatons." This can be taken to mean only 10 Gigatons, but the way Weber constantly refers to the previous missiles in Megaton range, even when they were in Gigaton, that the Empire's missiles are considerably stronger. Though it's almost impossible to say how much stronger though I will check that out.
I think Achultani missles were called "nasty" and "heavy" in the books and no mention of 4th empire antimatter missles being specal in anyway. They seemed to forcus more on improving gravitic missles.

Wrong. The Achultani's missiles were refered to as 10000 MT when they mention them being used as Proximity fighter killers. And they were equal in the strength to the Imperium. The Empire's capabilities on a civilian level are quoted at being able to create a planetoid 20 times more powerful than Dahak when he was an Imperium Planetoid. That and the quote of the Empire missiles being measured in Gigatons compaired to Webers constant refering Megatons even when weapons were in the Gigaton range. I'm gonna look for more solid evidense, I know I've got it written down somewhere, just need to find it.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2004-01-23 12:10pm

Yes, even after they found and started using the 4th empire planetiods those missles were being called "monster warheads". And Weber gave the describtion of thier firepower in narration, not thru characters or how the characters measured the warhead, just stating the yeild as the missles hit. He never says how 3rd empire measured thier warheads. It sounds more like he wanted to impress with out right stating the yield in megatons, not that the characters themselves measuring it.

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-01-23 01:43pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:Nothing the patrol couldn't take with time. Even if they can't simply tube a N-space weapon to the sun while the shield is on they can as soon as they crack it.

How exactly are they going to crack Birhat's system shield?

Nothing in the book says they were imobile, in fact it says they only survived becuase they were inertless before the N-space weapons were used, and then just got into a formation. Not to mention a planetiod might as well not be moving to a oppenent going ftl.

Dead wrong. A group of Boskone TFs went turtle, and the GP slung ten negaspheres at them, after six inertialess planets. Besides which, planetoids are capable of moving and fighting under Enchanach drive

And negaspheres have no problem going thru shields. The only problem might be tractor beams, but considering that because of how negaspheres work tractor's actaully pull towards the ship if set to push, so I doubt there be many survivors.

No, they have no problem going through Lensman shields, and I see no reason to assume that Dahakverse shielding will suddenly be ineffective.

Except these planets are also traveling ftl untill right when they hit the target. If they catch a planetiod in realspace its toast. And unlike fleets, they can hit non-ftl targets without slowing untill the last moment. And there's no idication that hyper weaponry of the caliber needed exisits to take out a planet.

No, if they catch a planetoid in real-space it promptly activates the E-drive, fucks over the planet, and gets clear. Or, if the E-drive masses don't do something unpleasant to the planet, it uses warp warheads.

BTW, warp cannons are capable of firing in sustained beams, and ripping chunks out of a planet (especially ones as big as warp cannons can grab) won't do good things to it.

Its highly unlikly fleet movements are going to put a tube right there in front of the enemy, and if they do, its becuase something nasty is coming thru. And they do close

Oddly enough, that was exactly what the Boskone were doing.

And when 10 gt missles are a problem for parasites, they're not going to be a problem for Patrol ships.

Those missiles are a problem for 4th Imperium parasites, which are not that impressive compared to 4th Empire ones. In addition to the fact that those missiles were exploding inside the parasites a lot of the time, and it took six to kill a destroyer during the siege of Earth.

Captain_Cyran wrote:Weber is rather off with his Energy weapons, at least for the Imperium as I haven't found anything to give power figures to the Empire. On one hand the Imperium energy weapons on a Battleship (80,000 ton ship) take a good 20 minutes to finish cutting through a mountain top, at least 600 meters wide. On the other hand a single beam from a Battleship blew a 1.6 kilometer hole in an Achulutani ship. And the warp beams are REALLY evil.

I always thought that they wanted the mountain intact enough to use as a basis for the PDC, so obviously they won't want to trash it.

Actually I think it would be safe to say that the 4th Empire's missiles actually exceed 10 GT, maybe reaching into 100 GT. It's speculation but Weber always refers to the Imperium and Achultani missiles as 10000 MT, but when he mentions the Empire missiles they are "Measured in Gigatons." This can be taken to mean only 10 Gigatons, but the way Weber constantly refers to the previous missiles in Megaton range, even when they were in Gigaton, that the Empire's missiles are considerably stronger. Though it's almost impossible to say how much stronger though I will check that out.

Well, they were killing Achuultani scouts in single hits, and those same ships were taking multiple hits from 4thI AM warheads (which were equal, IIRC to 'Tani warheads).

Yes, even after they found and started using the 4th empire planetiods those missles were being called "monster warheads".

Yes, from Colin's POV. Despite all his experience, Colin still instinctively equates gigatonne-range weapons with absolutely massive.

And Weber gave the describtion of thier firepower in narration, not thru characters or how the characters measured the warhead, just stating the yeild as the missles hit. He never says how 3rd empire measured thier warheads.

Wrong. One, it's the 4th Empire, and two:

The Armageddon Inheritance, page 274 wrote:The Empire's antimatter warhead yields were measured in gigatons.

[/quote]

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2004-01-23 04:48pm

Black Admiral wrote: How exactly are they going to crack Birhat's system shield?

You really think it can stand up to a n-space weapon? Those things were so powerful even the Arisans couldn't concive of a method of defending against them or understanding the phyics behind the effects of using them. I have no reason to belive its that strong.

But even if it can, its not going to stand up to a full barrage of super weapons coming from hundreds of thousands of hypertube simotaniously.

Dead wrong. A group of Boskone TFs went turtle, and the GP slung ten negaspheres at them, after six inertialess planets. Besides which, planetoids are capable of moving and fighting under Enchanach drive

There's no mention of them going turlte at all. Please quote it if there is because I'm reading that page now and don't see it. They massed together to fight other fleets, and were elimanted by the barrage. No mention of turning off thier drives for whatever the reason.

No, they have no problem going through Lensman shields, and I see no reason to assume that Dahakverse shielding will suddenly be ineffective.

And I have no proof they would be any more effective. The spheres ingnore energy well enought from Lensmen ships and weapons. It seems to almost be a spacal anomliy which Dahak-verse have no encouter with. And while hyperbeams are simarly in the fact they make mass "dissapear" its not the same thing.

No, if they catch a planetoid in real-space it promptly activates the E-drive, fucks over the planet, and gets clear. Or, if the E-drive masses don't do something unpleasant to the planet, it uses warp warheads.

Proof of ftl reactions? Because thats what you are talking about.

BTW, warp cannons are capable of firing in sustained beams, and ripping chunks out of a planet (especially ones as big as warp cannons can grab) won't do good things to it.

hmmm, I'll look for the quote...Have a page number?

Oddly enough, that was exactly what the Boskone were doing.

Not to oddily considering thats also why they lost those battles too. And there's aren't as fast as Patrol hypertubes, those can open, send something thru, and close in 3 seconds.

Those missiles are a problem for 4th Imperium parasites, which are not that impressive compared to 4th Empire ones. In addition to the fact that those missiles were exploding inside the parasites a lot of the time, and it took six to kill a destroyer during the siege of Earth.

I'll look at the third book to see how better they might be. But even six isn't the type of fire-power we are talking about.

Yes, even after they found and started using the 4th empire planetiods those missles were being called "monster warheads".

Yes, from Colin's POV. Despite all his experience, Colin still instinctively equates gigatonne-range weapons with absolutely massive. [/quote]
Actaully it was what him and his wife were thinking, so saying it was his POV is not compleatly acturate. And you have proof they were wrong anyhow?

And Weber gave the describtion of thier firepower in narration, not thru characters or how the characters measured the warhead, just stating the yeild as the missles hit. He never says how 3rd empire measured thier warheads.

Wrong. One, it's the 4th Empire, and two:

The Armageddon Inheritance, page 274 wrote:The Empire's antimatter warhead yields were measured in gigatons.
No, I meant the 3rd imperuim, he mentions how they are measured by the 4th empire but in every other case its like this:

Alarms scream as a ten thousand-megaton warhead exploded almost on top of Royal Birhat.
pg 265

No mention of the characters calling it a thousand megaton or anything. Same scenio of the one in the bigining of the book. They do call Ach missles nasty though. In yours he says how they measure there missles, in the other he says the yeild. Big difference.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2004-01-23 05:03pm

Black Admiral wrote:

Dead wrong. A group of Boskone TFs went turtle, and the GP slung ten negaspheres at them, after six inertialess planets. Besides which, planetoids are capable of moving and fighting under Enchanach drive

Oh, and Enchanach drive can't be used in-system and they are blind to movement in a jump.

Jetfire · Post by **Jetfire** » 2004-01-23 05:18pm

I don't know the opponents so I can't comment on how they compare, but it should be noted that in the Lensmen universe almost every planet with an atmosphere (including Gas Giants) tends to have a sentient race on it, and in the Lens-verse they all get along and work together towards their goals, guided by the Lensmen.

Also note that their Reverse Engineering skills are probably one of the best in Sci Fi period. The Lensmen would encounter the new weapon from the Boskone early on in the story, and by the mid point of the story they often have either stollen the tech, or have reproduced the tech, as well as come up with defenses against that technology.

Oh and going along with that Reverse Engineering is their production rates which are also among the top in Sci Fi. That technology they reproduced in the first half of the book is often almost fully deployed throughout their fleet (which seems to grow exponentially each time it goes into action) by the end of the story. Personally I think this comes from virtually all planets in the two galaxies having sentient life on them, all roughly at the same tech level so all capable of producing ships/weapons/equipment/people.

Did I mention that from the first book with Kinnison (sp.) to the last Lensmen book was a period of maybe 30 to maybe 100 years or so? (It's been awhile so I can't recall the full details off hand, but the main books followed that Lensman's life from when he got his Lens to when his children became the Children of the Lens and the Boskon's final(?) defeat) . They start off around Star Trek tech levels and by the end they are one of the few groups who can tear the Culture a new one.

I may be off on some details; please correct me if I am; but as far as I can remember that's some more of what the Lensmen can do.

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-01-23 05:34pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:You really think it can stand up to a n-space weapon? Those things were so powerful even the Arisans couldn't concive of a method of defending against them or understanding the phyics behind the effects of using them. I have no reason to belive its that strong.

Except for the fact that 4th Empire planetary shields could handle a 56 ZT kinetic impact (I think; have find Shortie's calcs on SB); the 4th Imperium shield that the same impact would've taken out was a 1/4 of the power of Dahak's.

But even if it can, its not going to stand up to a full barrage of super weapons coming from hundreds of thousands of hypertube simotaniously.

Might as well scale up from the planetary shields, since the 4th Empire found a way around that little size/strength problem.

There's no mention of them going turlte at all. Please quote it if there is because I'm reading that page now and don't see it. They massed together to fight other fleets, and were elimanted by the barrage. No mention of turning off thier drives for whatever the reason.

I checked that part; you're right. It still doesn't mean that a planetoid pulling evasive action at 800 C can get caught.

And I have no proof they would be any more effective. The spheres ingnore energy well enought from Lensmen ships and weapons. It seems to almost be a spacal anomliy which Dahak-verse have no encouter with. And while hyperbeams are simarly in the fact they make mass "dissapear" its not the same thing.

Still, Dahakverse shields are pretty damn different from any in the Lensman-verse; besides the blocking hyperspatial weapons fire, there's the fact that they're evidently multi-dimensional, and kind of don't go down that easily (AFAIA the only way to take them down (short of huge amounts of energy weapons fire that'd likely vape a planet several times over) is to hit the generator with a hyper missile).

Proof of ftl reactions? Because thats what you are talking about.

How about the fact that we've seen planetoids manouvre in E-drive before (would've had to when evading the supernova they set off)?

hmmm, I'll look for the quote...Have a page number?

Well, since Amanda uses a sustained warp rifle beam during the boarding action on Vindicator to remove a blast door (page 225), and warp cannons are basically scaled up versions, *shrugs*

Not to oddily considering thats also why they lost those battles too. And there's aren't as fast as Patrol hypertubes, those can open, send something thru, and close in 3 seconds.

That's less than a hypermissile's flight time, and Dahak-verse ships can react fast enough to fire that quickly.

I'll look at the third book to see how better they might be. But even six isn't the type of fire-power we are talking about.

Parasites don't rely on shields and armour to survive; instead they live by evading. Remember what happened when they hit the 'Tani head-on?

Actaully it was what him and his wife were thinking, so saying it was his POV is not compleatly acturate. And you have proof they were wrong anyhow?

I'm saying that Colin can't be called completely reliable here, as, while he intellectually understands that the 4thE's warheads are bigger, he still thinks of gigatonne range weaponry as ridiculously powerful. Did you forget that he's from an Earth that isn't that much more advanced than ours?

No, I meant the 3rd imperuim, he mentions how they are measured by the 4th empire but in every other case its like this:

Alarms scream as a ten thousand-megaton warhead exploded almost on top of Royal Birhat.
pg 265

No mention of the characters calling it a thousand megaton or anything. Same scenio of the one in the bigining of the book. They do call Ach missles nasty though. In yours he says how they measure there missles, in the other he says the yeild. Big difference.

No, my quote says what the missile's yields are measured in. And besides which, we never see any 3rdI tech in the books. I think you're referring to the 4thI missiles.

Black Admiral · Post by **Black Admiral** » 2004-01-23 05:36pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:Oh, and Enchanach drive can't be used in-system and they are blind to movement in a jump.

A) They aren't blind during an E-drive jump, and B) it's not so much can't as tend not to, or did you forgot what Dahak did to Pluto when he botched an E-drive translation?

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