B5's First Ones vs Galactic Empire, ROTJ period

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-30 05:14pm

Babylon 5 side:

All the First Ones, including the ones in the books, at their height, working together.

Star Wars side:

Galactic Empire at ROTJ, with both Death Stars completed.

Which side wins? And if this debate's already been done before, then sorry and I haven't been on this board for that long.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-30 05:23pm

The first ones get stomped. Even the best estimates for firepower leave them severaly lacking.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-30 05:25pm

High end weapons tap out at 2.5 Gigatons in Shadow Slicer beams

And talk about range limited with those....

Most likley a 14 ISD + 2 SSD Fleet ramapages them

Cpt. Marko Ramius · Post by **Cpt. Marko Ramius** » 2002-10-30 06:01pm

Should have watched B5... I don't have a clue.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-30 06:08pm

Oh, and I just want to make sure that everyone here knows that by First Ones I don't mean just the Shadows, Vorlons, and the Walkers.

That is all.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-10-30 06:41pm

No doubt that the Imperial fleet would ravage their vessels, but what about the first ones powers? And does this also include THE FIRST ONE?

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-10-30 06:51pm

I know any race from B5 would mop the floor with the Feds, but the Empire would lay the imperial smackdown in a big way.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-10-30 09:11pm

B5 is certainly the weakest of the Big 3, probably even including the FOs.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-30 09:51pm

Here's some stuff I've seen discussed:

There are many more FOs than the shadows and vorlons, including Kirshiac, the Triad, and Mindriders (I think).

I've heard that some of the FOs(Mindriders or Triads) can create lots of ships out of pure psychic willpower. Also heard that the Triads already know everything there is to know about the universe.

Also one of the FOs dragged a planet into hyperspace, intact, then brought it back out again and put it back in its proper orbit.

And Shadows can build a planetkiller cloud in thirty minutes (That was the figure in the book).

These infos are all from the B5 books, which like Star Wars' ICS, are considered canon I believe. Just giving more material for you guys to work with.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-30 09:51pm

weemadando wrote:No doubt that the Imperial fleet would ravage their vessels, but what about the first ones powers? And does this also include THE FIRST ONE?

And the rest of his race, if there is one.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-10-30 10:09pm

According to quotes posted on SB, the FO's can transmute energy into matter and vice-versa instantasily.. there did this to a hyperspace gate into a starship. Also they can see into and teloport into other dementions.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2002-10-30 10:12pm

Imperials would completely trash B5.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-30 10:13pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:According to quotes posted on SB, the FO's can transmute energy into matter and vice-versa instantasily.. there did this to a hyperspace gate into a starship. Also they can see into and teloport into other dementions.

Those that can aree pretty damn rare. They've almost entirely forsaken the universe as it is. I doubt they'd bat an eye if the Empire ran rampant. And it's still questionable whether they have the sheer power to hold off a dedicated Imperial assualt.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-30 10:40pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:According to quotes posted on SB, the FO's can transmute energy into matter and vice-versa instantasily.. there did this to a hyperspace gate into a starship. Also they can see into and teloport into other dementions.
Those that can aree pretty damn rare. They've almost entirely forsaken the universe as it is. I doubt they'd bat an eye if the Empire ran rampant. And it's still questionable whether they have the sheer power to hold off a dedicated Imperial assualt.

I've stated in the beginning that the FOs are at their height and are working together against the Empire. That would suggest a fully dedicated war against the Empire.

Oh, and Darth Shinji, that quote is from SB. And we know how SB is considered in these forums.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-30 10:50pm

Shinova wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:According to quotes posted on SB, the FO's can transmute energy into matter and vice-versa instantasily.. there did this to a hyperspace gate into a starship. Also they can see into and teloport into other dementions.
Those that can aree pretty damn rare. They've almost entirely forsaken the universe as it is. I doubt they'd bat an eye if the Empire ran rampant. And it's still questionable whether they have the sheer power to hold off a dedicated Imperial assualt.
I've stated in the beginning that the FOs are at their height and are working together against the Empire. That would suggest a fully dedicated war against the Empire.

Oh, and Darth Shinji, that quote is from SB. And we know how SB is considered in these forums.

The stuff is from the Agents of Gaming materials and is all canon per JMS.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-30 10:58pm

Stormbringer wrote: The stuff is from the Agents of Gaming materials and is all canon per JMS.

They're books, right? Who wrote them?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-10-30 11:59pm

I don't know too much about the FO beyond what was on in the series, and from what I saw in that, the Empire shouldn't have too much difficulty. What other FO are there? No one actually has to list them here and all their capabilities, just a link to appropriate resources would be fine.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-31 06:16am

You people can check this thread out for some fiver arguments since it's mirrored there:
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=38536

There aren't any real fivers here anymore I think.

There's the 2/3 SPK's a day figure granted, but I doubt it can uphold that rate of construction.

If they could, they would have produced more ships, or have no trouble to keep the current number of ships constant to keep pressuring them, I mean even if they held back, they would not want to loose and they would want to destroy babylon 5, wich they where incapable of due to losses sustained in the last war, in the alternate time line they suffered somewhat less losses and destroyed B5.

This they would still want to do, so why not build a few more crabs then and attack B5 and keep the galaxy in glorious chaos and destruction?

The technomage triology shows the Vorlon attack to be devastating, and also mentioned more attacks to be pretty bad for the shadows.

Really, if they could constantly produce ships at such a rate all the time, they would have, just enough so they would not loose and could keep the galaxy in chaos.
And they where afraid of loosing in the technomage triology.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-31 06:19am

Also, the Walkers could take planets into hyperspace with them, or atleast moons.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-31 04:37pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:You people can check this thread out for some fiver arguments since it's mirrored there:
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=38536

There aren't any real fivers here anymore I think.

There's the 2/3 SPK's a day figure granted, but I doubt it can uphold that rate of construction.

If they could, they would have produced more ships, or have no trouble to keep the current number of ships constant to keep pressuring them, I mean even if they held back, they would not want to loose and they would want to destroy babylon 5, wich they where incapable of due to losses sustained in the last war, in the alternate time line they suffered somewhat less losses and destroyed B5.

This they would still want to do, so why not build a few more crabs then and attack B5 and keep the galaxy in glorious chaos and destruction?

The technomage triology shows the Vorlon attack to be devastating, and also mentioned more attacks to be pretty bad for the shadows.

Really, if they could constantly produce ships at such a rate all the time, they would have, just enough so they would not loose and could keep the galaxy in chaos.
And they where afraid of loosing in the technomage triology.

I think it's cause the shadows got their butts kicked so badly in the First Ones' war and the first war with Valen in it that they were perhaps too overcautious. And they didn't know that the forces of light weren't prepared for them yet.

In the alternate timeline the war with Valen in it didn't happen so the Shadows didn't get their butts kicked a second time.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-10-31 04:51pm

[quote="His Divine Shadow"]Also, the Walkers could take planets into hyperspace with them, or atleast moons.[/quote

Obi Wan: That's no moon, it's a...

*zap*

Walkers: What space station?

I guess the DS2 isn't really an issue in this debate then.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-31 05:01pm

Why not? They'd just open fire on the walker ships.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-31 05:03pm

Shinova wrote:I think it's cause the shadows got their butts kicked so badly in the First Ones' war and the first war with Valen in it that they were perhaps too overcautious. And they didn't know that the forces of light weren't prepared for them yet.

In the alternate timeline the war with Valen in it didn't happen so the Shadows didn't get their butts kicked a second time.

Actually I remember Delenn speaking of how the shadows would have suffered less losses in the previous great war somehow and they had enough forces to destroy B5.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-31 07:41pm

Shinova wrote:Here's some stuff I've seen discussed:

There are many more FOs than the shadows and vorlons, including Kirshiac, the Triad, and Mindriders (I think).

I've heard that some of the FOs(Mindriders or Triads) can create lots of ships out of pure psychic willpower. Also heard that the Triads already know everything there is to know about the universe.

Also one of the FOs dragged a planet into hyperspace, intact, then brought it back out again and put it back in its proper orbit.

And Shadows can build a planetkiller cloud in thirty minutes (That was the figure in the book).

These infos are all from the B5 books, which like Star Wars' ICS, are considered canon I believe. Just giving more material for you guys to work with.

So? Their ships are order of magnitude inferior in nearly every category. Last time I had this debate, a B5er claimed to me that the firepower, shields, speed, range, numbers, sensors, armor, and industrial capabilities are all irrelevent during a war!

Incidentally, the SPK's capabilities are similar in most respects to an ISD, except that an ISD also has shields and anti-ship weapons.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-31 09:13pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Shinova wrote:Here's some stuff I've seen discussed:

There are many more FOs than the shadows and vorlons, including Kirshiac, the Triad, and Mindriders (I think).

I've heard that some of the FOs(Mindriders or Triads) can create lots of ships out of pure psychic willpower. Also heard that the Triads already know everything there is to know about the universe.

Also one of the FOs dragged a planet into hyperspace, intact, then brought it back out again and put it back in its proper orbit.

And Shadows can build a planetkiller cloud in thirty minutes (That was the figure in the book).

These infos are all from the B5 books, which like Star Wars' ICS, are considered canon I believe. Just giving more material for you guys to work with.
So? Their ships are order of magnitude inferior in nearly every category. Last time I had this debate, a B5er claimed to me that the firepower, shields, speed, range, numbers, sensors, armor, and industrial capabilities are all irrelevent during a war!

Incidentally, the SPK's capabilities are similar in most respects to an ISD, except that an ISD also has shields and anti-ship weapons.

Whoops, that's three SPKs per day.

And the stuff the First Ones used in B5 were just toys used to mess around with the Younger Races.