Roman Empire vs Mordor

[Mr. B]

The Romans against the armies of Sauron.

Romans at height of Empire.

Mordor just before seige/battle of Minas Tirith.

The wraiths and sauron cannot fight.

Who wins.

[Sea Skimmer]

If they can concentrate a big chunk of their army, the Romans should take this, though Sauron's force seem to have weapons and armor technology that’s somewhat more advanced. However without a lot of warning the Romans would not be able to muster sufficient forces and might be defeated in detail.

They should have control of the sea though. Sauron's total naval force seem to be just fifty or so pirate vessels. The Romans could deploy hundreds of vessels to counter these. With secure of the sea they could move there forces around fairly quickly.

[Gandalf]

With Orcs that can be created en masse, and humans working for then, Mordor takes this.

[haas mark]

Mordor.

[NecronLord]

Rome. The orcs are a vastly inferior quality force in, discipline, equipment, training...

[haas mark]

Rome. The orcs are a vastly inferior quality force in, discipline, equipment, training...

Lest we forget the big beasties...

[NecronLord]

Rome. The orcs are a vastly inferior quality force in, discipline, equipment, training...

Lest we forget the big beasties...

Are you talking about trolls?

ballista>troll

[weemadando]

Roman Empire at the end of Augustus' reign.... Hmmm...

This is close. Very very close.

The Romans however can just not summon the sheer numbers required to win.

[haas mark]

Rome. The orcs are a vastly inferior quality force in, discipline, equipment, training...

Lest we forget the big beasties...

Are you talking about trolls?

ballista>troll

No....can't remember the name of it, but if they have a few of those things at Gandalf's battle in the Fellowship...

And I agree with ando.

[NecronLord]

Lest we forget the big beasties...

Are you talking about trolls?

ballista>troll

No....can't remember the name of it, but if they have a few of those things at Gandalf's battle in the Fellowship...

And I agree with ando.

Mordor has no balrogs at this time.

[haas mark]

Are you talking about trolls?

ballista>troll

No....can't remember the name of it, but if they have a few of those things at Gandalf's battle in the Fellowship...

And I agree with ando.

Mordor has no balrogs at this time.

Ah. I wouldn't know...I haven't read the books in a while.

[HemlockGrey]

Mordor out of sheer numbers, but when it ended millions of orcs would lie dead.

[haas mark]

Mordor out of sheer numbers, but when it ended millions of orcs would lie dead.

As would millions of Romans....and then some...

Now what if we were to add the Greeks to this?

[Stormbringer]

Mordor out of sheer numbers, but when it ended millions of orcs would lie dead.

As would millions of Romans....and then some...

Now what if we were to add the Greeks to this?

The Greeks were by and large militiamen. Few had professional standing armies. And anyway the Roman Legions outnumber the classical period Greek armies and are better trained and organized to boot.

[HemlockGrey]

As would millions of Romans....and then some...

But there would be far more dead orcs. Admit it. The kill ratio would be insanely in Roman favor.

[haas mark]

As would millions of Romans....and then some...

But there would be far more dead orcs. Admit it. The kill ratio would be insanely in Roman favor.

That it would. I never said it wouldn't...the and then some comes from the other dark ceratures seething from Mordor.

[haas mark]

Mordor out of sheer numbers, but when it ended millions of orcs would lie dead.

As would millions of Romans....and then some...

Now what if we were to add the Greeks to this?

The Greeks were by and large militiamen. Few had professional standing armies. And anyway the Roman Legions outnumber the classical period Greek armies and are better trained and organized to boot.

What about any naval tactics that may ensue (had there been any)

[Stormbringer]

As would millions of Romans....and then some...

Now what if we were to add the Greeks to this?

The Greeks were by and large militiamen. Few had professional standing armies. And anyway the Roman Legions outnumber the classical period Greek armies and are better trained and organized to boot.

What about any naval tactics that may ensue (had there been any)

Since Mordor is more or less land-locked naval tactics will be of secondary importance.

[haas mark]

The Greeks were by and large militiamen. Few had professional standing armies. And anyway the Roman Legions outnumber the classical period Greek armies and are better trained and organized to boot.

What about any naval tactics that may ensue (had there been any)

Since Mordor is more or less land-locked naval tactics will be of secondary importance.

Then if we put them in an earth-scene where ROme and Greece have joined forces, and Mordor = North Africa?

[Stormbringer]

What about any naval tactics that may ensue (had there been any)

Since Mordor is more or less land-locked naval tactics will be of secondary importance.

Then if we put them in an earth-scene where ROme and Greece have joined forces, and Mordor = North Africa?

It'd be much more important. And of course Sauron would place a much greater importance on building a navy.

[haas mark]

Since Mordor is more or less land-locked naval tactics will be of secondary importance.

Then if we put them in an earth-scene where ROme and Greece have joined forces, and Mordor = North Africa?

It'd be much more important. And of course Sauron would place a much greater importance on building a navy.

Hmm....how uch so, do you think?

[Shadow WarChief]

Imrahil "Surely", he cried, "this is the greatest gest in all the history of Gondor: that we should ride with seven thousands...to assail the mountains and the impenetrable gate of the Black Land! So might a child threaten a mail clad knight with a bow of string and green willow!

-The Last Debate, page 864 of the one volume edition of LOTR
Return of the King


From this quote, we see that seven thousand soldiers is a token army to fling against Mordor, barely even worthy of the Dark Lord's notice. However, Gandalf reveals later on that their army's strength is greater than their army's numbers

Gandalf: There are names among us that are worth more than a thousand mail clad knights a piece

-The Last Debate, page 864 of the one volume edition of LOTR
Return of the King

Now we know that the army's strength is much greater than merely 7 thousand knights. But whence doth this strength come?

It is clear that at the least Gandalf is talking about the memebers of the fellowship that will fight....minus the hobbit. These members being

Gandalf
Legolas
Gimli
Aragorn

However, if it were only FOUR names that Gandalf was talking about, then he would have probably have just said those names. The only other source of names equalling thousands of nights come from the Dunedain that came down from the north. How many do they number?

"I have thirty with me" said Halbarad

However, the sonds of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir were also present at the battle of the Morannon

So there are the 36 names that equal (more) than 1000 knights each. Adding this on to the numbers previously stated, an army worth 43,000 marches towards the Black Gate of Mordor.

Once they got before the black gate, this is the army that would face them

"Forces ten times and more than ten times their matchwould ring them in a sea of enemies.

Going by only ONE of those "ten times", the army of Mordor that fought at the Morannon was equal to 430 THOUSAND.

Now here's the problem: What are these forces composed of?

We know for certain that there were Uruk-Hai, Olog-Hai, Easterlings and Orcs.

But I ask you this, does it really matter? The army that Hannibal defeated at Cannae was, IIRC, was comprised of 60,000 Romans.

He defeated by "simply" surrounding the Romans with his army and then gutting them through.

If the Romans even ATTEMPTED to assail the Black Gate, they would be surrounded by the forces above described....and Hannibal showed us what happens when the Romans get surrounded....

Romans....LOSE

[NecronLord]

But I ask you this, does it really matter? The army that Hannibal defeated at Cannae was, IIRC, was comprised of 60,000 Romans.

I think it was lower than that, thats 120 legions

[Sea Skimmer]

As would millions of Romans....and then some...

Now what if we were to add the Greeks to this?

The Greeks were by and large militiamen. Few had professional standing armies. And anyway the Roman Legions outnumber the classical period Greek armies and are better trained and organized to boot.

What about any naval tactics that may ensue (had there been any)

Mordor had the support of some Pirate who attacked Southern Gondor with about 50 galleys. The Romans would utterly crush such a force.

I was thinking that Mordor might be best placed in eastern Syria for such a sernario. In that case naval units would be useful for the Romans to bing in troops from the rest of the Empire, but such power will not be decisive.

[Guardsman Bass]

First off, when suggesting the Empire in Augustus's reign, are you suggesting the 28 legions Augustus maintained in the Roman Army near the end of his reign, or the 60 legions following his toppling of Antony? I take it 60 legions is about 180,000 soldiers,and at the height of the Roman Empire, with its best Emperor . . . I don't know. I would personnally prefer that the Romans be placed just at the end of the Republic era, with Julius Caesar as their general. Julius was a far more capable and brilliant military commander than Augustus.

As for the mordor forces:


1.[u]orcs[/u]: I hate to say it, but from what we have seen of the major fighting prowess of orcs, with 9(admittedly, at least 4 of these were exceptional warriors) members of the fellowship taking out dozens of them without taking even minor wounds, that the orcs are pretty much only good for making a lot of noise and scaring little hobbits. Maybe if they outnumbered the Romans 30-1 and greater, they would make a difference.

2. [u]Uruk-hai[/u]: Although still killed enmass by fellowship members(damn near an entire FORCE of them). the Uruk-hai are far more capable than mere orcs at fighting. I think that a Roman legion force against an Uruk-hai force of the same size would be in the Romans favor, but only because they are about evenly matched in individual skills, and the Roman army had much more teamwork and fire support(aka archers and cavalry) than the Uruk-hai have been seen with.

3.[u]Trolls[/u]: These things are deadly. It took a direct spear up into the chest , numerous arrows toall parts of the body, and sword thrusts directly into the skull(with the killing blow being(I presume) an arrow shot directly into the neck by an amazing archer, to take ONE down. If Sauron's army uses these in large numbers, the Romans will be in trouble; they would have to attempt to separate trolls from any support and individually kill them. Actually, they might be able to benefit from the trolls' sheer stupidity; if you could send several agile fighters into Mordor ranks, the trolls will try to kill them, taking out large numbers of their own orcs in the process.

4. [u]Eastlings[/u]: These are human warriors under Sauron's power. I am not sure of their capabilities; for sake of example, I will give them similar capabilities to German Barbarians; they are good individual fighters, but not any were near as good team players. Probably the best way to fight them is the way the Roman army fought any barbarian tribe.


All in all, it depends on the proportions of the Mordor and Roman Armies. Generally the legionaries are good, but the number and quality of their auxiliaries(cavalry and archers) will play a large role.

If the mordor army is made predominantly of uruk-hai, with the trolls and eastlings playing the strongest support role, and the orcs only secondary, then the Romans will be in trouble, or at least heavily challenged. If, on the other hand, there is the same number of trolls, with the orcs predominant and uruk-hai and eastlings only secondary and small in number, then the Romans will have a huge advantage.Orcs and trolls can not handle sunlight(or at least, it is a problem to them) wheras the Uruk-hai CAN move in sunlight(Gandalf mentioned this to Elrond when warning about Saruman's new army). Trolls are turned to stone when they have contact with sunlight, if the [u]Hobbit[/u] is counted as a source. Thus the Romans would not only be allowed to attack in sunlight, where obviously it is easier to coordinate attacks and commence them, but catch the Mordor army when it is weakest(middle day at high noon) and skewer and attempt to draw them out. Because this orc/troll can not go out into sunlight, they would be at the mercy of archers and Roman forces.

What type of battle is this? One HUGE battle, or a full war?