LotR vs. WoT

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-03 08:01pm

Who wins? JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings or Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time?

Scenario A) Baddies/Goodies vs. Baddies/Goodies (all out conflict between series)

Scenario B) Baddies vs. Baddies

Scenario C) Goodies vs. Goodies

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-11-03 08:13pm

How much of LotR are we using? Third Age or First Age?

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-03 08:13pm

Shinova wrote:How much of LotR are we using? Third Age or First Age?

I wouldn't know....whatever time the Trilogy takes place...?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-11-03 08:14pm

verilon wrote:
Shinova wrote:How much of LotR are we using? Third Age or First Age?
I wouldn't know....whatever time the Trilogy takes place...?

That would be third age. And since I don't know Wheel of time, I won't make any assumptions. Just wanted to clarify whether it was First or Third Age.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-03 08:44pm

I don't know the WoT. But the third age has Gandalf, Saruman, Ragadast or whatever, Sauron and at least 1 Balrog. 5 demigods.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-11-03 09:01pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:I don't know the WoT. But the third age has Gandalf, Saruman, Ragadast or whatever, Sauron and at least 1 Balrog. 5 demigods.

And First Age has Illuvatar, the Valar, Morgoth, the First Elves, lots of Maiar, etc...

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2002-11-03 11:41pm

Assuming this is also Third Age WoT, which Chosen are we taking as still alive?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-03 11:47pm

Luke Starkiller wrote:Assuming this is also Third Age WoT, which Chosen are we taking as still alive?

Even with out them, Ashaman, damaene or Dreadlords would tear apart most Middle Earth armies. It's amazing how much caranage a few clack coats can do.

Most battles would turn into Dumai's Wells writ large. The armies broken by the direct use of the One Power as a weapon. No Middle Earth army could take that kind of pounding repeatedly and still survive.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-11-03 11:48pm

Wheel of Time has VERY bad-ass magicians, and they regulaly make it a point that the best fighter in the universe can do jack and shit to any combat-worthy channeler (they have to wear them down over time). They have a weapon called Balefire which is pretty much instant-kill. Even the Dark One cannot bring back anyone killed by Balefire. They are also retroactively deleted from the timeline, the length of that dependant on the user. Essencially, the Omega Effect in miniature.

With the an angreal, even a moderately-powered mage can cause giant walls of fire to appear and the earth crumble beneath an army's feet. Rand al Thor class channelers weilding uber-powerful artifacts can pretty much re-arrainge landscape. A bunch of medium-powered mages with a special artifact altered the weather pattern for the world. They can also teleport.

Their armies are generally downplayed in the story. It is only known that they have armies capable of wearing down the mages over a long period of time, and that the Aiel are really bad ass.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-04 12:02am

Yogi wrote:With the an angreal, even a moderately-powered mage can cause giant walls of fire to appear and the earth crumble beneath an army's feet. Rand al Thor class channelers weilding uber-powerful artifacts can pretty much re-arrainge landscape. A bunch of medium-powered mages with a special artifact altered the weather pattern for the world. They can also teleport.

The Asha'man don't even need the angreal or sa' angreal to smash armies into a pulp. Look at Dumai's Well in Lord of Chaos or and battle against damaene supported Seanchan armies. Small groups of channelers trained to destroy and kill are capable of smashing armies all on their own.

Yogi wrote:Their armies are generally downplayed in the story. It is only known that they have armies capable of wearing down the mages over a long period of time, and that the Aiel are really bad ass.

And the Seanchan have Roman-esque style discipline and masssive numbers, not to mention tame channelers (damaene). The other armies tend to be much more early medival in nature and smaller in size. The Aeil are tougher, well disciplined and have major numbers.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-04 12:07am

Also What Wheel of Time era time...the third age for WoT or the current.

Rand alone is awesome, but if it's Lews Therin and the 100...sorry not much short of the First Age of Middle Earth stands. Lews and the rest of the 100 made the world fear the use of saiden and saidar so much so, that literally an average lamen will almost truly accept them...and hell the maps had to be changed completely.

And as for the scenarios(I'm using current because Lews and the 100 would obliterate just about anything...ALONE...and the reason why below)

A. I say Good, because honestly Rand does put that much more into favor. but the Chosen Dark ones do provide a difficulty that is hard to say that even Rand would overcome.

B. WoT...the Chosen were shy of Rand...pretty much all in some way.

C. WoT...mostly because Gandalf doesn't lead armies of magic guys capable of destroying country side with a combined effort.

Which is of something of note...WoT guys benefit greter and greater with their side because one guys is nasty but 13 are not 13 others...but 13 combined that make much more than the single parts. So saying the Chosen of Shaitan all going against anything short of the evil one, is pretty much in their favor...and think of that with Lews(pretty much a god) and 100 of the most powerful users all supplimenting him in every concievable way.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-11-04 12:44am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:I don't know the WoT. But the third age has Gandalf, Saruman, Ragadast or whatever, Sauron and at least 1 Balrog. 5 demigods.

In Third Age there are the five Istari: Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando. There also is Sauron (who is powerful enough to resist all the Istari). Then there are the rings/ringbearers: Gandalf, who bears Narya, the Ring of Fire; Elrond, who bears Vilya, the Ring of Air; Galadriel, who bears Nenya, the Ring of Water; the seven Dwarf-Rings; and the Nazgul. The Nazgul are the Witch-King of Angmar, Khamul the Easterling, Adunaphel, Akhorahil, Dwaw of Waw, Hoarmurath, Indur Dawndeath, Ren the Unclean, and Uvatha the Horseman. There are also the Iron Crown, which contains the Silmaril; the Lesser Rings of the Elves; the One Ring; the seven Palantiri; and Anduril, which will slay any not of the royal family of Gondor with a touch. While there are not many wizards in Middle-Earth, there are quite a few artifacts.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-11-04 02:38am

in the first book Rand al Thor using the last of the pure Saidan butcherd a trolloc army by himself what was left wass only twice the size of a brderlander army,disorganized and scared.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 03:44am

Pkay....rewrite...

LotR Third Age vs. WoT Third Age in above scenarios, then LotR First Age vs. WoT First Age, then LotR en masse against WoT en masse.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-11-04 04:03am

verilon wrote:Pkay....rewrite...

LotR Third Age vs. WoT Third Age in above scenarios, then LotR First Age vs. WoT First Age, then LotR en masse against WoT en masse.

You might wana exclude Illuvatar from the LotR side, since he is God.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 04:04am

Shinova wrote:
verilon wrote:Pkay....rewrite...

LotR Third Age vs. WoT Third Age in above scenarios, then LotR First Age vs. WoT First Age, then LotR en masse against WoT en masse.
You might wana exclude Illuvatar from the LotR side, since he is God.

Umm....okay, then........but I have no idea who that is...I haven't made it past the first book yet, and I haven't finished it, and I dun remember it, so I have to start all over agian.

mew.

Yes, I am evil.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 04:06am

Shinova wrote:
verilon wrote:Pkay....rewrite...

LotR Third Age vs. WoT Third Age in above scenarios, then LotR First Age vs. WoT First Age, then LotR en masse against WoT en masse.
You might wana exclude Illuvatar from the LotR side, since he is God.

Umm....okay, then........but I have no idea who that is...I haven't made it past the first book yet, and I haven't finished it, and I dun remember it, so I have to start all over agian.

mew.

Yes, I am evil.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 04:06am

Err....stupid double post...grr...

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2002-11-04 08:57am

OK, look, I'm going to answer this one right now: WoT wins both, hands, down, because Robert Jordan is a crappy hack writer, who's best wizardly tricks involve really big explosions.

As far as fantasy universes go, Middle Earth is not very powerful. Magic there is a subtle and vanishingly rare power. It isn't something to be tossed about lightly, on a whim.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-04 09:05am

Smiling Bandit wrote:OK, look, I'm going to answer this one right now: WoT wins both, hands, down, because Robert Jordan is a crappy hack writer, who's best wizardly tricks involve really big explosions.

He's not a hack. He like a lot of writers gets too wrapped up in his ideas and doesn't know when to quit. Sadly as his popularity has grown, editorial control has loosened and his quality has gone down.

And a lot of the magic is destructive because it's the primary need to for it. You don't fight a war of magic using butterfly illusions, you do it by smashing bodies to little bits.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 09:08am

Stormbringer wrote:
Smiling Bandit wrote:OK, look, I'm going to answer this one right now: WoT wins both, hands, down, because Robert Jordan is a crappy hack writer, who's best wizardly tricks involve really big explosions.
He's not a hack. He like a lot of writers gets too wrapped up in his ideas and doesn't know when to quit. Sadly as his popularity has grown, editorial control has loosened and his quality has gone down.

And a lot of the magic is destructive because it's the primary need to for it. You don't fight a war of magic using butterfly illusions, you do it by smashing bodies to little bits.

Not to mention that he pretty much created a genre of his own in the fantasy world. And you don't fight ANY war except by smashing bodies to little bits.

mew.

Yes, I am evil.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-11-04 11:08am

verilon wrote:
Shinova wrote:
verilon wrote:Pkay....rewrite...

LotR Third Age vs. WoT Third Age in above scenarios, then LotR First Age vs. WoT First Age, then LotR en masse against WoT en masse.
You might wana exclude Illuvatar from the LotR side, since he is God.
Umm....okay, then........but I have no idea who that is...I haven't made it past the first book yet, and I haven't finished it, and I dun remember it, so I have to start all over agian.

mew.

Yes, I am evil.

Iluvatar (IIRC) appears as a character only in the Silmarillion, but not in the LotR at all. Of course, if we add the Vainu and the Maia, WoT is most likely screwed, since they're basically Greek deities. The Vainu taught the Maia, and the Maia taught the Istari, who are the wizards of Middle-Earth.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 12:47pm

The Dark wrote:
verilon wrote:
Shinova wrote: You might wana exclude Illuvatar from the LotR side, since he is God.
Umm....okay, then........but I have no idea who that is...I haven't made it past the first book yet, and I haven't finished it, and I dun remember it, so I have to start all over agian.

mew.

Yes, I am evil.
Iluvatar (IIRC) appears as a character only in the Silmarillion, but not in the LotR at all. Of course, if we add the Vainu and the Maia, WoT is most likely screwed, since they're basically Greek deities. The Vainu taught the Maia, and the Maia taught the Istari, who are the wizards of Middle-Earth.

Ever heard of balefire?

mew.

Yes, I am evil.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-04 01:55pm

Balefire while awesome...the real power is that Rand/Lews if combined with over a hundred wielders of Saidar a big enough S'angreal...would be able to defeat Shaitan...

Eseentially Lews+100 powerful men was enough to do what ONLY God could've done...that alone speaks volumes. Seriously.

As for a war, I still say WoT because honestly how many users of both there are(I mean Rand has legions, and the women....god only knows seriously given how many pop out of the woodwork) and that they have things to enhance themselves beyond the norm makes it hard to say otherwise...that and both men and women can use Balefire, and if used indiscriminately...oi...the carnage.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-04 01:58pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Balefire while awesome...the real power is that Rand/Lews if combined with over a hundred wielders of Saidar a big enough S'angreal...would be able to defeat Shaitan...

Eseentially Lews+100 powerful men was enough to do what ONLY God could've done...that alone speaks volumes. Seriously.

As for a war, I still say WoT because honestly how many users of both there are(I mean Rand has legions, and the women....god only knows seriously given how many pop out of the woodwork) and that they have things to enhance themselves beyond the norm makes it hard to say otherwise...that and both men and women can use Balefire, and if used indiscriminately...oi...the carnage.

I figured someone might say as uch....and the women come out of more than just the woodwork...they's EVERYWHERE!!! Everyone's eyes-and-ears....yes....Middle Earth would die...muchly....

mew.

Yes, I am evil.