Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

[Uraniun235]

Via a previously unknown rift in space/time, a gateway between the Star Wars galaxy and the Warhammer 40K galaxy appeared approximately 40 parsecs rim-side of Tatooine. SW Imperial scouts have made several reconnaisance missions to the other side, returning with detailed reports of the other side.

Emperor Palpatine, intrigued by the potential of a whole second galaxy to rule over, decides that a campaign against extra-galactic aliens could very well be the thing to rally the Empire's citizens to him and away from the Rebellion. The Imperium of Man poses a difficult problem, however; seemingly human themselves, and also waging war against these aliens, they might prove difficult for the propagandists to adequately demonize.

Palpatine decides the best way to deal with the IoM is to decapitate it; and, in a strange mood, decides to keep the head as a trophy.

Palpatine orders Darth Vader to secure and deploy whatever military resources he requires in order to capture the God-Emperor of Man. Vader is then ordered to neutralize via massive orbital bombardment the Terran system in order to demoralize the Imperium.

Can the Galactic Empire crack the heavy fortifications surrounding Terra and the God-Emperor, and capture him? If so, how many casualties can they expect to take?

Assume that:
The Empire has sufficient medical technology to keep the God-Emperor alive during and after capture.
The Death Star is not available for this operation.
The Warp does not affect hyperspace.

[Imperial Overlord]

Star Wars owns 40K in space. But on the ground they are close. And if they are restricted by trying to capture the Emperor alive, they are going to drown in an ocean of blood. The casualties will be titanic.

[Dark Hellion]

Simple answer, they can't.
The defenses of Terra make Star Wars look like a playground. The throne room alone is more heavily defended than some Star Wars military bases. No ground force can actually touch the emperor, not with the Custodians /titans/war robots/dark age of tech shit watching over him. Without capturing him, they lose.

[SirNitram]

Simple answer, they can't.
The defenses of Terra make Star Wars look like a playground. The throne room alone is more heavily defended than some Star Wars military bases. No ground force can actually touch the emperor, not with the Custodians /titans/war robots/dark age of tech shit watching over him. Without capturing him, they lose.

Some quantification of any of this stuff instead of just 'IT'S TEH UBER!!!!!', please?

[Imperial Overlord]

The Emperor's palace is Europe.

The Adeptus Custodes are even more powerful than Space Marines.

The Emperor can mess with the flow of time.

Titan's mount modified capital ship weapons.

The palace is massively defended, including against orbital bombardment. Of course, that's not going to happen since you need to take the Emperor alive.

The SW galaxy can do it. They have enough men and material and their fleet can raze Mars and Luna while blockading earth. But the forces being sent against the palace will take staggering casualties.

[Zor]

(Tarken Voice) We shall go to Terra, and Crush the Imperium With one Swift Stroke(Tarken Voice)

The Imperium would NEVER Suspect a Lighting Strike of 1,000 Star Destoryers apearing in Orbit of Terra outta nowere.

I Should Remind you that a Single Star Destroyer can melt a Planet's Crust in a matter of hours. Titans and other big things get bicthslapped from orbit via Base Delta Zero level orbital bombardment from their Turbolasers, and then the landing begins.

[SirNitram]

The Emperor's palace is Europe.

We're going to need a bigger box.

The Adeptus Custodes are even more powerful than Space Marines.

When the going gets tough, the tough send in combat droids. Repeated waves of SD-9 and SD-10 ought to clear them out.

The Emperor can mess with the flow of time.

I'm not even sure if Palpatine can do anything there. The best I can say is that the Empire has the technology to give Relativity the finger. Is the temporal hoohah relativity based?

Titan's mount modified capital ship weapons.

ISD's have enough precision to crack a sub's hull, just enough, to force it to the surface(Dark Force Rising).

The palace is massively defended, including against orbital bombardment. Of course, that's not going to happen since you need to take the Emperor alive.

The above mention is applicable: You can certainly blow a new entryway for forces.

The SW galaxy can do it. They have enough men and material and their fleet can raze Mars and Luna while blockading earth. But the forces being sent against the palace will take staggering casualties.

Oh yes. Stormtroopers will die gloriously for Palpatine! All over the goddamn walls, ceiling, floor, subbasements...

[Dark Hellion]

Ok, yah they can do it. They have to starve out the Adeptus Custodes (wait a few decades, the Imperial palace is equipped for sieges). Then they can attack.
The main thing is that no force can be sent that can possibly defeat the Adeptus Custodes and still fit into the throne room. They are too much power in to small of packages. When the Custodians finally starve to death (If they can. There are powerful Psykers and could have food creation or other smazzy shit up their sleeves) the empire's troops can move in.
The Palace would not be hard for the Empire to destroy, but the fact that they have to capture the GEoM is what makes this so hard. He lives in the most fortified room of the most fortified building on the most fortified planet in the most fortified solar system of a galaxy where 100 foot tall demons can appear to eat your soul while your under the bombardment of TTs of orbital ordinance. He is sorta hard to get in touch with, if you know what I mean.

[Imperial Overlord]

No the temporal stuff is based on his awesome warp powers, which are somewhat unquantifiable. The only time the palace was attacked, the enemy fleet was commanded by a superhuman (Horus) who was simultaneously hosting part of the essence of all four chaos gods. The battle between Horus and the Emperor is what crippled him and confined him to the Golden Throne.

Subsequently, he became worshiped as a god, probably increasing his psychic powers even more. I certainly don't know the upper limit of his powers, but Jedi are feeble compared to 40K psykers.

The palace has massive anti-ship defences and the Titans are inside. And you can't just shoot it up if you want the Emperor intact. The Impies don't know where the golden throne is and certainly can't risk damaging it or its supporting equipment without having to do the Nedda apology.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

As has been stated, nothing the Empire has can possibly stand against the Adeptus Custodes - they make Space Marines look like babies. Assuming this takes place "now," i.e., on the verge of M42, the Emperor Himself can't do a whole lot. Unless they accidentally kill him, which would be very, very bad for the Empire.

Anyways, even if Vader himself came down to get the job done, he'd be gang-raped by the Custodes in short order. He might kill a few with the Force -maybe- but not even Palp's right hand man would live long. Stormtroopers are for the most part fearless as are battle droids, so they could keep coming relentlessly, but even regular Marines are accustomed to this from their enemies (Orks, Tyranids, cultists, daemons...) so the Custodes certainly won't bat an eyelash.

I wouldn't be surprised if the death toll passed the billion mark, and ultimately it would probably degenerate into a stalemate. Without the ability to simply pummel the Custodes from orbit, the Empire can't crack the Palace. The Empire will have to either pull out, or level the place, which will in all likelihood kill the Emperor, at which point the entirety of the Empire is fucked into oblivion by a very pissed-off god.

This is all assuming the Empire can crack Holy Terra's outer defenses unscathed. I have no doubt they can do it, mind you, but it's going to take a lot of power. The time required to do it means the Empire will be fighting the entire system and probably a few nearby systems within a few days. That is a lot of firepower on the Imperium's part, even compensating for their inferior power output, not to mention at least a few Chapters of Astartes (including the Grey Knights, no less), the heart of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and Emperor-knows how many Guardsmen. If the Empire is unable to do it within a month, the entire Imperium (more or less, not getting into the inevitable border losses this will result in) will be rushing to the defense of the God-Emperor. We're talking nearly a million pissed-off Marines ready to board Star Destroyers - no easy task, given the Empire's general space superiority, but doable. Once onboard the Empire might as well write off the Star Destroyer in question. If, unlikely though it may be, the Executor was boarded, it'd be over in the blink of an eye.

[Executor]

As has been stated, nothing the Empire has can possibly stand against the Adeptus Custodes - they make Space Marines look like babies. Assuming this takes place "now," i.e., on the verge of M42, the Emperor Himself can't do a whole lot. Unless they accidentally kill him, which would be very, very bad for the Empire.

What happens if they do?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

As has been stated, nothing the Empire has can possibly stand against the Adeptus Custodes - they make Space Marines look like babies. Assuming this takes place "now," i.e., on the verge of M42, the Emperor Himself can't do a whole lot. Unless they accidentally kill him, which would be very, very bad for the Empire.

What happens if they do?

It's theorized in-universe that were the Emperor to finally die (His body anyways), He will transcend mortal form and become a true god, destroying the Chaos powers once and for all allowing Humanity to ascend to its rightful place in the galaxy.

[Spiritbw]

That is suggested as one of the reasons the Chaos gods have not gone for another push to Terra. They know what will happen if his body finally dies, releasing the last restraint on his power. They can undercut his power though they think by simply killing enough of his followers. Considering the number of planets and the populations of some of them this is not going to be quick or easy. The Guard regularly practice war by attrition simply because there is that much manpower in the Imperium.

[Uraniun235]

Could we get some quantification for the Custodes? What weapons do they use? Why can't they simply run out of ammo? What sort of endurance do they have? Do they have environmentally sealed suits? And if not, why not pump in chemical weapons... isn't the Golden Throne a self-contained life support system?

Also, why can't the Empire just start knocking down walls one at a time?

We're talking nearly a million pissed-off Marines ready to board Star Destroyers - no easy task, given the Empire's general space superiority, but doable.

How are they going to get close enough to cut their way in? I doubt the SDs are going to lumber about like beached whales waiting for death to let itself in when they could be pulling a few thousand Gs and regrouping.

[PeZook]

That is suggested as one of the reasons the Chaos gods have not gone for another push to Terra. They know what will happen if his body finally dies, releasing the last restraint on his power.

Take note, however, that the Emperor himself doesn't seem to be so sure of this. After all, it was him who instructed his followers to build the Golden Throne, and if he really wanted to, he could pretty easily end his mortal life in a myriad of ways.

About the topic - the SW Empire doesn't stand much chance. It all depends on the amount of casualties they deem acceptable and war droids they have on hand, but even if they get into the throne room, they still have to face the Emperor himself. Despite his mortal wounds, he's still powerful enough to interfere with attempts to spirit away the Golden Throne.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Could we get some quantification for the Custodes? What weapons do they use? Why can't they simply run out of ammo? What sort of endurance do they have? Do they have environmentally sealed suits? And if not, why not pump in chemical weapons... isn't the Golden Throne a self-contained life support system?

Also, why can't the Empire just start knocking down walls one at a time?

Custodes equipment generally revolves around a force glaive with a built-in storm bolter, similar to the Grey Knights' gear but in one package and more powerful in hand-to-hand. I honestly don't know how vast the ammunition stores on Terra are, but if push comes to shove they can just slaughter the Stormies and whatever else in hand-to-hand just as easily as they can at range. Even if for some reason their force glaives were rendered inoperable, they could crush things with their power-armored hands.

A force weapon is a power weapon with psychic enhancement, and a power weapon is equitable to a lightsaber. Basically, a trained user, such as a Custodes, can channel psychic energy through it and kill his opponent outright (i.e., oops, massive cerebral hemorhaging), though it's by no means limited to biological opponents. A storm bolter is simply two bolters in one.

Custodes power armor is totally NBC and vaccuum protective IIRC.

Endurance? I recall one short story of a Marine Chapter fighting non-stop with no sleep for roughly a year (one of their implants/modifications allows them to eschew total sleep with only minor side-effects). I don't have this on-hand however, I'll try to find another source.

We're talking nearly a million pissed-off Marines ready to board Star Destroyers - no easy task, given the Empire's general space superiority, but doable.

How are they going to get close enough to cut their way in? I doubt the SDs are going to lumber about like beached whales waiting for death to let itself in when they could be pulling a few thousand Gs and regrouping.[/quote][/quote]

Like I said, no easy task. But with the amount of naval power that will be brought to bear on Terra in this scenario, it would be like fighting off swarms of locusts, and eventually some will slip through.

[consequences]

Random thought, can we make any correlation between Ysalimiri's force blocking abilities and the Warp? We know that 40K has its own psyker blockers. Just a thought, watching twenty trillion ysalimiri being brought to the Sol system, and the Astronomicon instantly blinking out would be pretty cool, even if its not possible for the purposes of the deabte.

Step one: BDZ Mars Luna, and Titan as soon as it becomes apparent that there's any Imperium presence there. Destroy all space installations.

Step two: toast everything on Earth apart from the Imperial Palace.

Step three: glass the top layer of the Imperial palace

Step four: make forced landings, punching through the hopefully defenseless top layer

Step five: take billions of casualties among the battledroids, stormtroopers, and Compnor assault battalions sent into the breach.

Step six: figure out a rough location for the Emperor

Step seven: obliterate the entire Imperial Palace apart from that area

Step eight: take billions more causualties dragging down the elite of the IoM with your troops bodies

Step nine: pray really hard that the Emperor doesn't bitchslap you all, or just volunarily shut down his own life-support thirty seconds before you enter the throne room just to spite you.

[HemlockGrey]

So, basically, in order to give the Imperium a fighting chance against the Empire, we have to saddle the Empire with all sorts of weird restrictions that limit their fighting capability.

Because if the Empire really decided to attack the Imperium, and really wanted to decapitate it, it would simply send in either the Death Star or an obscenely large fleet of massive warships (remember, the ISD is not the biggest warship in the Imperial arsenal) and either BDZ or blow away Earth with ease.

Earth? Gone. Mars? Gone. Cadia? Gone.

Come to think of it, the Empire could screw pretty much all of the WH40K powers, simply by reducing their key strongholds to glass and then investing the lesser worlds.

[Gunhead]

I'd like to hear some numbers in the way of defenders vs. Attacker.
All this wank'o'wank about who has the most uber special powers is going to mean dick if the other side is outnumbered 100 to 1.

If the Empire has 1000 ISDs in system the whole fleet of the IoM would be needed to even put a dent on them, or at least most of it. IoM's fleet is also scattered all over the place while the ISDs are already concentrated in one place.

-Gunhead

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Random thought, can we make any correlation between Ysalimiri's force blocking abilities and the Warp? We know that 40K has its own psyker blockers. Just a thought, watching twenty trillion ysalimiri being brought to the Sol system, and the Astronomicon instantly blinking out would be pretty cool, even if its not possible for the purposes of the deabte.

If that's true, then Vader's in for a world of hurt should a Culexus Assassin get aboard his ship. Which actually brings up another idea - Assassins, particularly the Callidus Temple, could counter-attack the Empire's fleet and open the door for a boarding by the Astartes...

One displacer field, a silently killed pilot, and some polymorphine later...

"Shuttle Tidyrium, requesting de-activation of the energy field..."

That's assuming Imperial landing craft touched down long enough, though.

[Black Admiral]

Data (vague I'm afraid) WRT Holy Terra's spatial defences:

He [Ragnar] considered their approach. He knew that they had passed countless fleets and fortresses as they had swung in from the ultra-solar jump points. They had passed the armoured moons of Jupiter and the forge world of Mars. They had been subjected to hundreds of challenges and scans and they had been boarded twice. It had been a long drawn out process but it was only to be expected.

The world down there was better protected than any other in human history. There would not be a Second Battle of Earth if the terrible lords of the Imperium could help it. Even now the sky was filled with sattelite fortresses; great weapon installations with enough firepower to destroy battle fleets. The whole of sublunar space was crowded with warships.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I'd like to hear some numbers in the way of defenders vs. Attacker.
All this wank'o'wank about who has the most uber special powers is going to mean dick if the other side is outnumbered 100 to 1.

If the Empire has 1000 ISDs in system the whole fleet of the IoM would be needed to even put a dent on them, or at least most of it. IoM's fleet is also scattered all over the place while the ISDs are already concentrated in one place.

-Gunhead

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Failing that, a thousand other troops."

I'm not an expert on 40k's space-faring side, so I can't comment on that. But on the ground, there are only so many men you can squeeze into one corridor at a time; which is what this is - a meter by meter close-quarters clusterfuck through the Imperial Palace. The Adeptus Custodes will (quite literally) rip the attackers apart; the Imperial Fists did the same during the Horus Heresy, and they were regular Space Marines fighting their former brothers, Traitor Marines (who are vastly superior in all respects to a Stormtrooper) and their hordes of fodder troops.

Numerical superiority means very little once the Astartes become involved, to say nothing of the Custodes.

[Chris OFarrell]

Its doable. NOT easy, but doable.

The key is going to be using the Empires military industrial might correctly.

Step 1.

Send recon flights into the Terran system. Under cloak if possbile. Very carefuly scout out the exact defence structure. Orbital inclinations of Battle Stations, fleet masheling points, patrol paths, minefields, orbital weapons platforms and so on. Get it down to the point where you can hyperjump into the area with precision. Also take note of patrol paterns and so on.

Frankly there can't be THAT much spare stuff floating around out of the planatery orbits, given how the Necron Light Cruisers (albeit with advanced stealth technology) were able to cruise all the way upto the orbital picket lines of Mars then slip through them, without swarms of capital ships running them down inside the system through shear numbers.

Step 2.

Assemble in 40K space a massive armarda. Under the Command of Thrawn. We're talking about enough force to steamroll the defences something amazing. I would estimate perhaps 1000 ISD II's with 3-5 SSD's as flagships and 5-10 thousand support vessels of (strike) Cruiser size on down to Frigate size.

Key are also a couple of World Devistators, if they exist.

Also key is (before this operation takes place), ambushing and taking over a few 40K capital ships. Just to get their technology, gas the crew or whatever. Specificaly, we want to see if you can quickly addapt Gellar field technology, as it protects against warp power such as warp entities and psionic attacks in 40K. If the Imperials can addapt that (and flood far more raw power into them), it should prevent any fancy tricks.

Step 3.

Invasion. At the right time, the fleet should jump from Hyperspace to realspace and open fire. Vaporise with massed fire the defence stations, ship patrols and so on. Then deploy the fleet into one force to blockade Terra. Another to go methodicaly around the solar system and blast every other planet to molten slag.

Make a point of focusing a LOT of firepower on Mars, where those Necron cruisers a while back landed, lets see if we can't get rid of a C'Tan.

If possible, jam all outgoing and incomming warp messages. We know the Chaos Planet killer had some kind of system wide communications jamming ability, see if you can duplicate this to cut the system off.

Have fast response task groups stationed near the usual emergence points to blast anyone who comes to vist.

Then have Terra slagged, except very specificaly for the Emperors palace. Bombard that as well, but if at all possible, only move upto 10 Kilometers or so from the Golden Thrones location. But wipe out everything else.

Then simply spend as long as it takes (days, weeks, months, whatever) simlpy pooring the highest tech battledroids the World Devestators can pump out down into whats left of the palace until enemy resistence has been crushed. Then Imperial Enginering can come down, lift the Golden Throne out from its base and take it to Executor, for its trip back to Courscant.

Then bring in the World Devistators and have them start to

[Gunhead]

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Failing that, a thousand other troops."

I'm not an expert on 40k's space-faring side, so I can't comment on that. But on the ground, there are only so many men you can squeeze into one corridor at a time; which is what this is - a meter by meter close-quarters clusterfuck through the Imperial Palace. The Adeptus Custodes will (quite literally) rip the attackers apart; the Imperial Fists did the same during the Horus Heresy, and they were regular Space Marines fighting their former brothers, Traitor Marines (who are vastly superior in all respects to a Stormtrooper) and their hordes of fodder troops.

Numerical superiority means very little once the Astartes become involved, to say nothing of the Custodes.[/quote]

Superior numbers mean alot, that's why I wanted know how many defenders there are. 1000 SM/Custodes vs 100 000 stormies, stormies win. IoM has a grand total of 2000 000 marines right? All of these are all over fighting or in their monasteries. How many custodes are there? Because they'd be the strongest infantry force present. Rest of the defenders would guardsmen. While the guard could go toe to toe againgst stormies specially on the defensive, their armor and other vehicles would be owned by AT-AT's.

-Gunhead

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Superior numbers mean alot, that's why I wanted know how many defenders there are. 1000 SM/Custodes vs 100 000 stormies, stormies win. IoM has a grand total of 2000 000 marines right? All of these are all over fighting or in their monasteries. How many custodes are there? Because they'd be the strongest infantry force present. Rest of the defenders would guardsmen. While the guard could go toe to toe againgst stormies specially on the defensive, their armor and other vehicles would be owned by AT-AT's.

-Gunhead

An AT-AT can't fit inside a 3-meter wide, 3-meter tall corridor, first of all.

A blaster has been proven in the past to be on roughly even footing with a lasgun - and a lasgun doesn't have a chance in hell of denting an armored Marine. It's like stabbing an Abrams with a spear.