how did the shadows manage to kill Kosh?

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-04-14 09:48pm

In B5 we see that Vorlons can survive getting plastered with high voltage of electricity, shot at numerous times, and fighting between 2 of them damages the station.

Now the Shadows on the other hand are forced to retreat if not killed from Centauri hand held weapons fire.

This seems to me that the Vorlons seem much more physically powerful than the shadows. So how is it that 3 shadows manage to kill Kosh?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-04-14 09:56pm

Because Vorlon wanking is bullshit? Kosh 2 was electrocuted, but for all you know his suit was grounded and the current just ran around him. And he was shot several times by hand weapons which were specifically designed not to be powerful enough to damage bulkheads or consoles. Sorry, he's just not as tough as people make him out to be. It's the Vorlons' ships that are tough, more so than their bodies.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-04-14 10:00pm

Didn't the Shadows heavily outnumber Kosh?

Also, didn't Kosh accept the death?

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-04-14 10:00pm

I thought he let them kill him in order to be a catalyst for further events...

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-04-14 10:11pm

Darth Wong wrote:Because Vorlon wanking is bullshit? Kosh 2 was electrocuted, but for all you know his suit was grounded and the current just ran around him. And he was shot several times by hand weapons which were specifically designed not to be powerful enough to damage bulkheads or consoles. Sorry, he's just not as tough as people make him out to be. It's the Vorlons' ships that are tough, more so than their bodies.

Before you jump on me for my statement, I agree with this, but I stand by the fact that he was passive during the assault for his own reasons...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-04-14 10:11pm

weemadando wrote:I thought he let them kill him in order to be a catalyst for further events...

He didn't go down without a fight. They said his quarters were torn apart, as if heavy ordnance was used in there.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-04-14 10:15pm

Darth Wong wrote:
weemadando wrote:I thought he let them kill him in order to be a catalyst for further events...
He didn't go down without a fight. They said his quarters were torn apart, as if heavy ordnance was used in there.

Been a while since I've seen it - am I thinking of the earlier encounter with them in the hallway?

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2005-04-14 10:17pm

Darth Wong wrote:
weemadando wrote:I thought he let them kill him in order to be a catalyst for further events...
He didn't go down without a fight. They said his quarters were torn apart, as if heavy ordnance was used in there.

I don't know if electricity is effective against the Vorlons,but what killed Koshh 2 was what was left of the first in Sheridan.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-04-14 10:19pm

Well, the Shadows knew they were going to go kill a Vorlon, presumably they had anti-vorlon weaponry.

Centauri imperial guard, or whatever they're called, may have slightly more advanced sidearms than EA security forces, or even specially calibrated weapons based on previous scans of shadow biology. Or shadow/vorlon biology is different enough for one of them to be more shocked by YR guns than the other.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2005-04-14 10:28pm

Rye wrote:Well, the Shadows knew they were going to go kill a Vorlon, presumably they had anti-vorlon weaponry.

Centauri imperial guard, or whatever they're called, may have slightly more advanced sidearms than EA security forces, or even specially calibrated weapons based on previous scans of shadow biology. Or shadow/vorlon biology is different enough for one of them to be more shocked by YR guns than the other.

Or, more likely, individual shadows just aren't that durable. Those were the same guns we see the Centauri soldiers carrying at other times in the series.

For example: A British gentleman of the 19th Century comes from a civilization which can easily wipe out the native Americans in warfare. That doesn't mean that if a couple of Indians shoot him full of arrows, he'll survive.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2005-04-14 10:50pm

Rye wrote:Well, the Shadows knew they were going to go kill a Vorlon, presumably they had anti-vorlon weaponry.

Centauri imperial guard, or whatever they're called, may have slightly more advanced sidearms than EA security forces, or even specially calibrated weapons based on previous scans of shadow biology. Or shadow/vorlon biology is different enough for one of them to be more shocked by YR guns than the other.

Sheridan took down quite a few with his personal sidearm. Shadows = not tough.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2005-04-14 10:51pm

Darth Wong wrote:
weemadando wrote:I thought he let them kill him in order to be a catalyst for further events...
He didn't go down without a fight. They said his quarters were torn apart, as if heavy ordnance was used in there.

It might have been Kosh's actual DEATH that caused a good deal of the damage, it sent a big yellow shockwave around the station, IIRC.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-04-14 11:01pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
weemadando wrote:I thought he let them kill him in order to be a catalyst for further events...
He didn't go down without a fight. They said his quarters were torn apart, as if heavy ordnance was used in there.
It might have been Kosh's actual DEATH that caused a good deal of the damage, it sent a big yellow shockwave around the station, IIRC.

I don't recall any such yellow shockwave. Sheridan just woke up from his dream and said "Kosh!"

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2005-04-14 11:06pm

I was always under the impression that since the Shadows were always around with Morden, there could be a surprising number on B5. I heard it was heavilly implied that Kosh fought his attackers, but all those spikey bits did him in before the Vorlon-plosion.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-04-14 11:08pm

He's talking about Kosh 2's death, Wong, and inferring that Kosh v 1.0's demise might have been accompanied by a similar energy release.

SpacedTeddyBear · Post by **SpacedTeddyBear** » 2005-04-14 11:33pm

The "death" of Kosh v1. caused an energy release. When v1 and v2 kill each other, it's hard to tell since they do it when they were inside the ship which also blew up.

To me it seems that anti-personal weapons of the younger races are more effective against Shadows than against Vorlons. When Sheridan's forces took out Kosh v2., they had to crack open its suit which seemed to take a lot of firepower. Ignoring the suit itself since we're considering the actual being, even with Kosh v2. out of its suit, the ppg blasts seem to pass through the Vorlon without rendering it any harm.

Well like Lorien said, the only reason why the Shadows were able to kill Kosh was because they were both First Ones.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-04-14 11:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:
SyntaxVorlon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: He didn't go down without a fight. They said his quarters were torn apart, as if heavy ordnance was used in there.
It might have been Kosh's actual DEATH that caused a good deal of the damage, it sent a big yellow shockwave around the station, IIRC.
I don't recall any such yellow shockwave. Sheridan just woke up from his dream and said "Kosh!"

It was the weirdest moment in that episode. Kosh dies, Sheridan wakes up, and some weird shit happens to the station - the energy 'shockwave' or some such. No explanation given in the episode, IIRC. I don't even know why they put it in, since it didn't seem to do anything aside from look pretty.

Of course, it wasn't yellow, it was blue-white...

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2005-04-15 12:50am

Stofsk wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
SyntaxVorlon wrote: It might have been Kosh's actual DEATH that caused a good deal of the damage, it sent a big yellow shockwave around the station, IIRC.
I don't recall any such yellow shockwave. Sheridan just woke up from his dream and said "Kosh!"
It was the weirdest moment in that episode. Kosh dies, Sheridan wakes up, and some weird shit happens to the station - the energy 'shockwave' or some such. No explanation given in the episode, IIRC. I don't even know why they put it in, since it didn't seem to do anything aside from look pretty.

Of course, it wasn't yellow, it was blue-white...

Memories cloudy, my apologies.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2005-04-15 01:09am

What's this about Centari "hand weapons" taking down Morden's bodyguards?
Those monster energy rifles looked barely small enough to be considered man portable, and looked like they were made to be on a pintle.
Like the M60, it takes a huge guy to hold but can be done if there isn't much running involved. Or if he doesn't have to hold it very long.

The Shadows could have done something about it if they didn't how ballsy Londo was with his planet facing destruction. They just walked up to Morden and BLAM! Let his Shadows have it, no warning, no wind up, no preamble!
I think there was an astonishment factor that let him pull it off. After all, he wouldn't DARE!

Then later on, when Vir gets his wish...

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-04-15 01:51am

One should also consider that Vorlons wear those bulky encounter suits. Vorlons themselves are rather frail creatures physically, so it would be more then logical for them to wear armored encounter suits. It would help hold back attacks while they use their really strong telepathic abilities against foes.

Shadows, on the other hand, lack both Vorlon encounter suits and, IIRC, telepathic abilities (though they use telepaths as living starship computers). They, however, rely much more on stealth and subversion to get what they want, and strike me as having a lot of intelligence. When going to assassinate Kosh, I imagine that, if they were not physically strong enough to crack open his encounter suit, they would have brought can openers or something to do it for them.

Manus Celer Dei · Post by **Manus Celer Dei** » 2005-04-15 03:47am

SpacedTeddyBear wrote:
Well like Lorien said, the only reason why the Shadows were able to kill Kosh was because they were both First Ones.

Lorien wrote:Remember Sheridan. The Shadows were able to kill Kosh because they are alike. Both first ones. For you this will be much more difficult. You've never seen a Vorlon enraged. They are more powerful than you can imagine.

And:

Delenn: It's Kosh. Kosh was inside him.
Lorien: Yes. The last of Kosh. And some of him, and some of me.

Since the Kosh/Sheriden/Lorien thing that fought Kosh 2 wasn't entirely a First One, it makes sense that it was much harder for it/them to kill Kosh 2 than it was for the Shadows (First Ones) to kill Kosh 1.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-04-15 03:50am

CivilWarMan wrote:Shadows, on the other hand, lack both Vorlon encounter suits and, IIRC, telepathic abilities (though they use telepaths as living starship computers).

I'm fairly certain that spikey thing is an encounter suit of another form. Given that it is able to turn invisible, something rather unlikely for an organic creature. Also, given that both the Vorlons, Lorien's Race, Future Humans, and probably Future Minbari are glowing amorphous creatures, it is likely the Shadows and the other First Ones are too.

Shadow applied defensive technology is probably inferior to that of the Vorlons, not least because the Vorlons are very keen to project their power. They have no qualms with flying their ships right up in front of B5 and showing them off in season one after all, unlike the Shadows, whereas the Shadows operate on stealth and surprise.

The Shadows themselves are most certainly telepathic. Telepaths has a special response to them (In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum) as well as which, more tellingly, they are able to influence the minds of the younger races using their devices (Voices of Authority, The Hour of the Wolf) as well as telepathically control Lyta (Into the Fire) I would in fact, be tempted to say that you can't be considered a First One without telepathic abilities, especially given what Lorien can do. The reason their ships can be jammed is because the Shadows are not flying them.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-04-15 12:39pm

SpacedTeddyBear wrote:
Well like Lorien said, the only reason why the Shadows were able to kill Kosh was because they were both First Ones.

Unfortunately I don't think he explained what it was exactly about the nature of being a First One that helped the Shadows take out Kosh, given that (Vorlon wanking aside) Vorlons seem somewhat tougher than Shadows.

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2005-04-15 03:13pm

Nobody expects the Shadows! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Chaos.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again

Nobody expects the Shadows! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Chaos, and nice spiky ships - Oh damn!

Kosh was killed with a comfy chair

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-04-15 04:58pm

CivilWarMan wrote:One should also consider that Vorlons wear those bulky encounter suits. Vorlons themselves are rather frail creatures physically, so it would be more then logical for them to wear armored encounter suits. It would help hold back attacks while they use their really strong telepathic abilities against foes.

Kosh being able to carry sheridan while in flight somewhat disproves the theory that vorlons are physically frail. the main reason they seem to wear the encounter suits is to prevent people from looking at their true form. given that most of the younger races are each going to perceive something differently.