Vulcans vs Mentats

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
Enola Straight
Jedi Knight
Posts: 793
Joined: 2002-12-04 11:01pm
Location: Somers Point, NJ

Vulcans vs Mentats

Post by Enola Straight »

Which are smarter, Star Trek Vulcans or Dune Mentats?
Masochist to Sadist: "Hurt me."
Sadist to Masochist: "No."
User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Post by fgalkin »

Mentats.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

They're both morons. Mentats for reverting society to 18th century methods where human calculators are used instead of electronic ones, and Vulcans for spending all of their time talking about why they're superior without actually doing anything to prove it.

Dune is an entertaining read but if you turn your brain on it's an absolute travesty. Heavy artillery would annihilate any ground force without resorting to nukes, irrespective of those silly "slow-blade-passes" shields of theirs. Reaction-forces and blunt-force trauma would take care of that. And why don't they just use napalm, WP grenades, flamethrowers, or AP land-mines, all of which would also defeat their silly personal shielding system? Are their vaunted mentats too stupid to think of these things?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
fgalkin
Carvin' Marvin
Posts: 14557
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:51pm
Location: Land of the Mountain Fascists
Contact:

Post by fgalkin »

They're both morons
That's true, but we have to pick one of the two. I say mantats, because Vulcans have never impressed me with their "logic".

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Post by Stormbringer »

Darth Wong wrote:They're both morons. Mentats for reverting society to 18th century methods where human calculators are used instead of electronic ones, and Vulcans for spending all of their time talking about why they're superior without actually doing anything to prove it.
You do know that the humans of the Dune universe spent several thousand years oppressed by AIs? What exactly do you expect? They're human and act like it. It's a paranoid reaction to historical oppression.
Image
User avatar
Typhonis 1
Rabid Monkey Scientist
Posts: 5791
Joined: 2002-07-06 12:07am
Location: deep within a secret cloning lab hidden in the brotherhood of the monkey thread

Post by Typhonis 1 »

They faought a war with AI and were ensaved by them for at least 1000 years but still they could make do with even SIMPLE computers
Brotherhood of the Bear Monkey Clonemaster , Anti Care Bears League,
Bureaucrat and BOFH of the HAB,
Skunk Works director of the Mecha Maniacs,
Black Mage,

I AM BACK! let the SCIENCE commence!
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Post by Stormbringer »

Typhonis 1 wrote:They faought a war with AI and were ensaved by them for at least 1000 years but still they could make do with even SIMPLE computers
Never underestimate the paranoia that a thousand years of oppression will generate.
Image
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Especially fueled by apparently an all consuming religon(the OC bible practically enforces it)

...in fact the only people that practice anything close to what we consider tech are considered heathern outcast and dangerous folks because of their views...The Bene Thieluix and Ixians.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12791
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Stormbringer wrote:You do know that the humans of the Dune universe spent several thousand years oppressed by AIs? What exactly do you expect? They're human and act like it. It's a paranoid reaction to historical oppression.
Really? Thats cool, go AI's.
Also, what about this schulzman or whatever, who invented the shield and all kinds of crap, I heard he was immortal?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12791
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Ghost Rider wrote:...in fact the only people that practice anything close to what we consider tech are considered heathern outcast and dangerous folks because of their views...The Bene Thieluix and Ixians.
Then what do they have instead? Don't they have ships and weapons and stuff? Thats tech.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
Alex Moon
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 3358
Joined: 2002-08-03 03:34am
Location: Weeeee!
Contact:

Post by Alex Moon »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:...in fact the only people that practice anything close to what we consider tech are considered heathern outcast and dangerous folks because of their views...The Bene Thieluix and Ixians.
Then what do they have instead? Don't they have ships and weapons and stuff? Thats tech.
I believe the rule is against creating a machine that can think like a human, or perform human tasks. Hence a they can build starships that can fly through space, but can't build calculators kind of deal.
Warwolves | VRWC | BotM | Writer's Guild | Pie loves Rei
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12791
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Smegheads, they could use a good oppression :D
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
HemlockGrey
Fucking Awesome
Posts: 13834
Joined: 2002-07-04 03:21pm

Post by HemlockGrey »

And, Wong, IIRC, heavy weaponry and such is banned under the Great Convention- or it could just be atomics, I dunno.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses

"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
User avatar
Alex Moon
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 3358
Joined: 2002-08-03 03:34am
Location: Weeeee!
Contact:

Post by Alex Moon »

HemlockGrey wrote:And, Wong, IIRC, heavy weaponry and such is banned under the Great Convention- or it could just be atomics, I dunno.
I think it's just atomics.

IIRC Artillery isn't used on Dune because it supposedly can survive the harsh desert environment.
Warwolves | VRWC | BotM | Writer's Guild | Pie loves Rei
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29312
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Post by Vympel »

Alex Moon wrote:
I think it's just atomics.

IIRC Artillery isn't used on Dune because it supposedly can survive the harsh desert environment.
Don't remember reading that. Either way, it's a silly reason- you can build a weapon system to survive such a desert environment easily.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
User avatar
Alex Moon
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 3358
Joined: 2002-08-03 03:34am
Location: Weeeee!
Contact:

Post by Alex Moon »

Vympel wrote:
Alex Moon wrote:
I think it's just atomics.

IIRC Artillery isn't used on Dune because it supposedly can survive the harsh desert environment.
Don't remember reading that. Either way, it's a silly reason- you can build a weapon system to survive such a desert environment easily.
I agree.

Maybe out in the deep desert it's relatively useless, or even dangerous considering the sandworms, while most of the population is concentrated in a few locations, which could be protected by shields, forcing a direct assault from space.
Warwolves | VRWC | BotM | Writer's Guild | Pie loves Rei
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?

BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Darth Wong wrote:Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?

BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
Actually, don't the Worms track by ground vibrations? Artillery sends alot of those. It'd be broadcasting 'MEAL HERE' to the big bad wormie.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Post by Stormbringer »

Darth Wong wrote:Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?
Didn't say it wasn't irrational. But after a few thousand years of oppression by machines I doubt you'd be very rational about it either.
Darth Wong wrote:BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
Did they have that kind of weaponary in times they would remember? Because for all we know it was lost to history. It's possible lasguns had replaced some of that and other similar tech.
Image
HemlockGrey
Fucking Awesome
Posts: 13834
Joined: 2002-07-04 03:21pm

Post by HemlockGrey »

Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?
Well, it's not really entirely their fault- computers are lost tech, anyone creating a computer will be slaughtered wholesale by religious fanatics, the Guild, etc.
BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
War under the Imperium was highly ritualized and 'honorable', and I believe warfare between Great Houses was designed by the Great Convention to limit the possibility of civilian casualties- hence why they call them 'Wars of Assassins'.

Plus, I don't even think they have them. I do remember reading something about 'thopters having missiles, though.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses

"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Darth Wong wrote:Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?

BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
Artillery exists in and is used in the book Dune.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Scorpius
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 88
Joined: 2002-12-02 02:26pm
Location: The Uncharted Territories...

Post by Scorpius »

Darth Wong wrote:Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?

BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
A commentary, not an apology:

1. Mentats CLAIM their computational power far exceeds that of the computers of the past. They don't believe that they have a use for these "trifling machines." It could just be a form of job security but the novels state this opinion many times.

2. Anyone who attempts to subvert the Butlerian Jihad and the Great Convention would face the combined might of the Emporer and Great Houses (Leto II dared to use technology because his power was absolute.) That means that anyone (Mentats included) that used AI technology would be put to death instantly. Even if someone thought it was a good idea, they couldn't use it for fear of society's paranoia about AI's. That's why IX and the Bene Tleilax were considered outcasts: they were SUSPECTED of making machines that violated the rules; it just wasn't proven yet.

3. To the commentary that they don't have tech: massive city-sized buildings, giant spice harvesting machinery, galactic trade, Lasguns, galactic spaceflight of massive quantities of people and materials anyone? Hello?

4. Personal shields and emplacement shields have supposedly made many weapons obsolete. The Harkonnens won the first Dune battle because they found ways to nullify this advantage on Arrakis, both at the personal and emplacement level.

5. The government is fuedal in nature with wars being fought in specified ways: ie. War of Assassins, Kanly etc. They may be fighting the wars in these ways due to "codes of conduct" because of the fear of what everyone might do if they "played dirty." The winners would always have to worry about how the method of their victory was perceived politically by the rest of the Empire. They could win the battle, but lose an allies' support.

5. How big would the stakes have to be in order to violate the code of conduct and break out "really dirty" weapons? Muad'dib, who's playing for an Empire goes to great trouble to explain that he didn't violate the Great Convention by use of Atomics. He's still playing by the rules even though he brought the Empire to its knees...

Stupid? Sure. But in the end I think Herbert was trying to show what happens when dogma and religion are intertwined with politics. He also wanted a Galactic Empire that still had a use for the romance/adventure a good swordfight provides. Maybe somebody should've handed him a lightsabre... :wink:
Pizza, Margarita Shooters and naked Sebacen girls...Now that's a party.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Artillery exists in and is used in the book Dune.
Really? I don't remember that, but it's been a while since I've read the book. I enjoyed it, but it does rest upon stupid plot devices for its setup. Was this artillery used against buildings or people? What kind of artillery was it?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

The Harkonnen used some type of artillery cannon to which could close of cave walls.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Scorpius
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 88
Joined: 2002-12-02 02:26pm
Location: The Uncharted Territories...

Post by Scorpius »

Darth Wong wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Artillery exists in and is used in the book Dune.
Really? I don't remember that, but it's been a while since I've read the book. I enjoyed it, but it does rest upon stupid plot devices for its setup. Was this artillery used against buildings or people? What kind of artillery was it?
After the betrayal by Dr Yueh and the House shields being turned off the Atreides forces were broken, in retreat and took refuge in caves. The Harkonnens shelled the caves to seal them in killing them all.

They never specifically mention what type of artillery it was, but its appearance was surprising to the Atreides (they never saw it coming)
Pizza, Margarita Shooters and naked Sebacen girls...Now that's a party.
Post Reply