Vulcans vs Mentats
Moderator: NecronLord
- Enola Straight
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 793
- Joined: 2002-12-04 11:01pm
- Location: Somers Point, NJ
Vulcans vs Mentats
Which are smarter, Star Trek Vulcans or Dune Mentats?
Masochist to Sadist: "Hurt me."
Sadist to Masochist: "No."
Sadist to Masochist: "No."
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
They're both morons. Mentats for reverting society to 18th century methods where human calculators are used instead of electronic ones, and Vulcans for spending all of their time talking about why they're superior without actually doing anything to prove it.
Dune is an entertaining read but if you turn your brain on it's an absolute travesty. Heavy artillery would annihilate any ground force without resorting to nukes, irrespective of those silly "slow-blade-passes" shields of theirs. Reaction-forces and blunt-force trauma would take care of that. And why don't they just use napalm, WP grenades, flamethrowers, or AP land-mines, all of which would also defeat their silly personal shielding system? Are their vaunted mentats too stupid to think of these things?
Dune is an entertaining read but if you turn your brain on it's an absolute travesty. Heavy artillery would annihilate any ground force without resorting to nukes, irrespective of those silly "slow-blade-passes" shields of theirs. Reaction-forces and blunt-force trauma would take care of that. And why don't they just use napalm, WP grenades, flamethrowers, or AP land-mines, all of which would also defeat their silly personal shielding system? Are their vaunted mentats too stupid to think of these things?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- Stormbringer
- King of Democracy
- Posts: 22678
- Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm
You do know that the humans of the Dune universe spent several thousand years oppressed by AIs? What exactly do you expect? They're human and act like it. It's a paranoid reaction to historical oppression.Darth Wong wrote:They're both morons. Mentats for reverting society to 18th century methods where human calculators are used instead of electronic ones, and Vulcans for spending all of their time talking about why they're superior without actually doing anything to prove it.
- Typhonis 1
- Rabid Monkey Scientist
- Posts: 5791
- Joined: 2002-07-06 12:07am
- Location: deep within a secret cloning lab hidden in the brotherhood of the monkey thread
They faought a war with AI and were ensaved by them for at least 1000 years but still they could make do with even SIMPLE computers
Brotherhood of the Bear Monkey Clonemaster , Anti Care Bears League,
Bureaucrat and BOFH of the HAB,
Skunk Works director of the Mecha Maniacs,
Black Mage,
I AM BACK! let the SCIENCE commence!
Bureaucrat and BOFH of the HAB,
Skunk Works director of the Mecha Maniacs,
Black Mage,
I AM BACK! let the SCIENCE commence!
- Stormbringer
- King of Democracy
- Posts: 22678
- Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm
- Ghost Rider
- Spirit of Vengeance
- Posts: 27779
- Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
- Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
Especially fueled by apparently an all consuming religon(the OC bible practically enforces it)
...in fact the only people that practice anything close to what we consider tech are considered heathern outcast and dangerous folks because of their views...The Bene Thieluix and Ixians.
...in fact the only people that practice anything close to what we consider tech are considered heathern outcast and dangerous folks because of their views...The Bene Thieluix and Ixians.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
- His Divine Shadow
- Commence Primary Ignition
- Posts: 12791
- Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
- Location: Finland, west coast
Really? Thats cool, go AI's.Stormbringer wrote:You do know that the humans of the Dune universe spent several thousand years oppressed by AIs? What exactly do you expect? They're human and act like it. It's a paranoid reaction to historical oppression.
Also, what about this schulzman or whatever, who invented the shield and all kinds of crap, I heard he was immortal?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
- His Divine Shadow
- Commence Primary Ignition
- Posts: 12791
- Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
- Location: Finland, west coast
Then what do they have instead? Don't they have ships and weapons and stuff? Thats tech.Ghost Rider wrote:...in fact the only people that practice anything close to what we consider tech are considered heathern outcast and dangerous folks because of their views...The Bene Thieluix and Ixians.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
I believe the rule is against creating a machine that can think like a human, or perform human tasks. Hence a they can build starships that can fly through space, but can't build calculators kind of deal.His Divine Shadow wrote:Then what do they have instead? Don't they have ships and weapons and stuff? Thats tech.Ghost Rider wrote:...in fact the only people that practice anything close to what we consider tech are considered heathern outcast and dangerous folks because of their views...The Bene Thieluix and Ixians.
Warwolves | VRWC | BotM | Writer's Guild | Pie loves Rei
- His Divine Shadow
- Commence Primary Ignition
- Posts: 12791
- Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
- Location: Finland, west coast
-
- Fucking Awesome
- Posts: 13834
- Joined: 2002-07-04 03:21pm
And, Wong, IIRC, heavy weaponry and such is banned under the Great Convention- or it could just be atomics, I dunno.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
I think it's just atomics.HemlockGrey wrote:And, Wong, IIRC, heavy weaponry and such is banned under the Great Convention- or it could just be atomics, I dunno.
IIRC Artillery isn't used on Dune because it supposedly can survive the harsh desert environment.
Warwolves | VRWC | BotM | Writer's Guild | Pie loves Rei
Don't remember reading that. Either way, it's a silly reason- you can build a weapon system to survive such a desert environment easily.Alex Moon wrote:
I think it's just atomics.
IIRC Artillery isn't used on Dune because it supposedly can survive the harsh desert environment.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
I agree.Vympel wrote:Don't remember reading that. Either way, it's a silly reason- you can build a weapon system to survive such a desert environment easily.Alex Moon wrote:
I think it's just atomics.
IIRC Artillery isn't used on Dune because it supposedly can survive the harsh desert environment.
Maybe out in the deep desert it's relatively useless, or even dangerous considering the sandworms, while most of the population is concentrated in a few locations, which could be protected by shields, forcing a direct assault from space.
Warwolves | VRWC | BotM | Writer's Guild | Pie loves Rei
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?
BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- SirNitram
- Rest in Peace, Black Mage
- Posts: 28367
- Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
- Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Actually, don't the Worms track by ground vibrations? Artillery sends alot of those. It'd be broadcasting 'MEAL HERE' to the big bad wormie.Darth Wong wrote:Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?
BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
- Stormbringer
- King of Democracy
- Posts: 22678
- Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm
Didn't say it wasn't irrational. But after a few thousand years of oppression by machines I doubt you'd be very rational about it either.Darth Wong wrote:Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?
Did they have that kind of weaponary in times they would remember? Because for all we know it was lost to history. It's possible lasguns had replaced some of that and other similar tech.Darth Wong wrote:BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
-
- Fucking Awesome
- Posts: 13834
- Joined: 2002-07-04 03:21pm
Well, it's not really entirely their fault- computers are lost tech, anyone creating a computer will be slaughtered wholesale by religious fanatics, the Guild, etc.Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?
War under the Imperium was highly ritualized and 'honorable', and I believe warfare between Great Houses was designed by the Great Convention to limit the possibility of civilian casualties- hence why they call them 'Wars of Assassins'.BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
Plus, I don't even think they have them. I do remember reading something about 'thopters having missiles, though.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
- Sea Skimmer
- Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
- Posts: 37390
- Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
- Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Artillery exists in and is used in the book Dune.Darth Wong wrote:Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?
BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
A commentary, not an apology:Darth Wong wrote:Let me get this straight. Dune apologists are saying that the Mentats are not irrational morons for refusing to use any kind of computer because they subscribe to a slippery slope fallacy and believe that anything which performs computations will inevitably lead to sentient AT's conquering and enslaving humanity? This disproves my claims about their stupidity?
BTW, regarding artillery: nukes are outlawed, but that's it. Artillery, AP landmines, napalm, etc are legal and would all be devastating to Dune ground forces. Their failure to use them is merely more evidence of their stupidity.
1. Mentats CLAIM their computational power far exceeds that of the computers of the past. They don't believe that they have a use for these "trifling machines." It could just be a form of job security but the novels state this opinion many times.
2. Anyone who attempts to subvert the Butlerian Jihad and the Great Convention would face the combined might of the Emporer and Great Houses (Leto II dared to use technology because his power was absolute.) That means that anyone (Mentats included) that used AI technology would be put to death instantly. Even if someone thought it was a good idea, they couldn't use it for fear of society's paranoia about AI's. That's why IX and the Bene Tleilax were considered outcasts: they were SUSPECTED of making machines that violated the rules; it just wasn't proven yet.
3. To the commentary that they don't have tech: massive city-sized buildings, giant spice harvesting machinery, galactic trade, Lasguns, galactic spaceflight of massive quantities of people and materials anyone? Hello?
4. Personal shields and emplacement shields have supposedly made many weapons obsolete. The Harkonnens won the first Dune battle because they found ways to nullify this advantage on Arrakis, both at the personal and emplacement level.
5. The government is fuedal in nature with wars being fought in specified ways: ie. War of Assassins, Kanly etc. They may be fighting the wars in these ways due to "codes of conduct" because of the fear of what everyone might do if they "played dirty." The winners would always have to worry about how the method of their victory was perceived politically by the rest of the Empire. They could win the battle, but lose an allies' support.
5. How big would the stakes have to be in order to violate the code of conduct and break out "really dirty" weapons? Muad'dib, who's playing for an Empire goes to great trouble to explain that he didn't violate the Great Convention by use of Atomics. He's still playing by the rules even though he brought the Empire to its knees...
Stupid? Sure. But in the end I think Herbert was trying to show what happens when dogma and religion are intertwined with politics. He also wanted a Galactic Empire that still had a use for the romance/adventure a good swordfight provides. Maybe somebody should've handed him a lightsabre...
Pizza, Margarita Shooters and naked Sebacen girls...Now that's a party.
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
Really? I don't remember that, but it's been a while since I've read the book. I enjoyed it, but it does rest upon stupid plot devices for its setup. Was this artillery used against buildings or people? What kind of artillery was it?Sea Skimmer wrote:Artillery exists in and is used in the book Dune.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- Ghost Rider
- Spirit of Vengeance
- Posts: 27779
- Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
- Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
The Harkonnen used some type of artillery cannon to which could close of cave walls.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
After the betrayal by Dr Yueh and the House shields being turned off the Atreides forces were broken, in retreat and took refuge in caves. The Harkonnens shelled the caves to seal them in killing them all.Darth Wong wrote:Really? I don't remember that, but it's been a while since I've read the book. I enjoyed it, but it does rest upon stupid plot devices for its setup. Was this artillery used against buildings or people? What kind of artillery was it?Sea Skimmer wrote:Artillery exists in and is used in the book Dune.
They never specifically mention what type of artillery it was, but its appearance was surprising to the Atreides (they never saw it coming)
Pizza, Margarita Shooters and naked Sebacen girls...Now that's a party.