Marines versus Clones...Geonosis

[white_rabbit]

Right, Space marines versus Stormys has been done, and IIRC the general consensus of the board was that the Space Marines would get blown away by the firepower of the Stormies.

So, lets see how the Clones do.

Replace the defending Federation army troops + armour with either a Space Marine Legion or a chapter, the Marines can do their own thing in the battle, i.e. not run blindly at the onrushing clone horde.

Orbital support isnt allowed, neither is support from the Acclamators, although I dont remember them doing much besides being menacing anyway.
Aerial support from LAATs and T-Hawks is allowed for both sides respectively.


Could someone give me an estimate of the Clone Trooper forces on Geonosis so I can specify the Marine force..

Merry Christmas..

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Right, Space marines versus Stormys has been done, and IIRC the general consensus of the board was that the Space Marines would get blown away by the firepower of the Stormies.

So, lets see how the Clones do.

Replace the defending Federation army troops + armour with either a Space Marine Legion or a chapter, the Marines can do their own thing in the battle, i.e. not run blindly at the onrushing clone horde.

Orbital support isnt allowed, neither is support from the Acclamators, although I dont remember them doing much besides being menacing anyway.
Aerial support from LAATs and T-Hawks is allowed for both sides respectively.


Could someone give me an estimate of the Clone Trooper forces on Geonosis so I can specify the Marine force..

Merry Christmas..

The problem is that Old Republic clonetrooper forces seemed to be faster reacting than Imperial stormtrooper forcers. And the clonetroopers had heavier weapons to begin with. Not to mention OR air support seemed to be much more obvious. The space marines would probably get raped even worse.

[Vympel]

Don't know. There's no appreciable difference between Stormtroopers and their predecessors- their weaponry is the same firepower level and they have fucking mean air support (LAAT) and direct fire field guns (SPHA-T).

[SWPIGWANG]

Use 2nd ed where SM have Titans....STOMP no more clones

where is the old thread with SM vs stormies?

I say devastator squads with plasma cannon = 0wned clones

[Vympel]

Use 2nd ed where SM have Titans....STOMP no more clones

where is the old thread with SM vs stormies?

I say devastator squads with plasma cannon = 0wned clones

Too bad the Titans get blown apart by SPHA-Ts.

[Typhonis 1]

and how long will it take the SPHA Ts to shoot through the void shields?

[Vympel]

and how long will it take the SPHA Ts to shoot through the void shields?

A shorter period of time than it would take for them to stomp on clonetroopers

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Since when could stormtroopers beat the Emperor's Finest? No matter. At any rate, the clonies would most likely get beat on, seeing as how Power Armor can shrug off hits from rapid-fire 30mm HE shells.

[Vympel]

HE shells? LOL- seeing as how they're high explosive and not armor piercing, clonetroopers have little to fear

This is a silly debate though. How the hell do you get calcs from dice rolls and all that other stuff?

It's purely subjective crap- Titans are KEWL and they will OWN j00!!!!-esque stuff.

[white_rabbit]

Since when could stormtroopers beat the Emperor's Finest?

Since the last thread..

*shrug*

IIRC, most of the board who posted believed that the Stormies would win..

I was interested to see how the Clones would do

This is a silly debate though. How the hell do you get calcs from dice rolls and all that other stuff?

You dont, you get it from the fluff.

So, is anyone gong to give me numbers of the Clones on Geonosis ?


Anyway.

Standard Marine armament is the Bolter

Heres some info on bolters, taken from Spacebattles

Basically they fire on single shot/semi/full auto

The standard round for a bolter is .75 cal.
Armour piercing "diamantine" tip and DU core
Mass reactive core.

So the Bolter shell should penetrate, then explode inside its targets, although on softer human targets they have been known to tear straight through.

"vast chunks" of rock are blown away from stone walls as an example of them hitting another material

the explosive is enough to reduce a torso to red mist, take limbs off, decapitate etc.

The bolter round is fired at a "relatively" slow velocity, then the rocket motor on the round ignites

This gives bolters a fairly distinctive sound, although on the more rapid fire settings I doubt it would be audible beyond a mass of cracks, swooshes and explosions.


There are several differing sorts of round however.

Inferno rounds: incendiaries, not sure whether they maintain their mass reactive core, or explode on impact,

Hellfire: nasty acid/toxin round, penetrates armour with ceramic shards and the acid does the rest

Metal storm: mass reactive core and AP core are removed/modified IMO and the shell explodes before impact showering an area with lots of shrapnel....

Stalker: mercury core, and a silent propulsion system, Deathwatchers use them linked with specialised targeter systems that let them use them as snipers....limited availibility to standard marines

Odysseus: Psychically impregnated rounds, obviously designed for tracking targets, still powerful enough to kill Necron Warriors though

Kraken: anti-armour rounds...let marines take on real tanks with bolter shots....nasty.



Marines dont really need the specialised rounds, but any marines who hae been part of the Deathwatch will often use the rounds

IMO, the rarests of the rounds and ones least likely to be used by standard marines are Odysseus rounds,

Hellfires were designed to be used against Tyranids, cause bugger all else in the form of viral, baterial, acidic/poison/radiological that the Imperium had would affect the Nids. heavy bolter fodder

Infernos...hmm, well From the top of my head, Ive read of a few guard officers who used Inferno rounds and other specialist rounds in fluff, so they arent that uncommon it would seem, but not something your average marine would really bother with.

Seems fairly appropriate for Chapters like the Black Dragons though. dunno, draw your own conclusions

Metal storms....handy I suppose, but not really vital, frag do the trick anyway.

As you can see, Bolters are nasty weapons.

Marines are all expert with them, and will probably have spent more time practising with them than the clones have been alive


Heavy weapons, as in weapons carried by marines themselves, NOT vehicle mounted include.

Heavy Bolters....bigger meaner more shooty version of the Bolter...

Lascannons...Heavy tankbuster, seems to fire a large diameter beam, which will instantly vaporise humans, very good at penetrating armour

Heavy Plasma Guns

Big plasma beam/bolt weapons, very nasty, with a good sized blast radius, they cut through marine armour like it didnt exist, usually vaping them.

They are unstable, Imperium plasma weapon malfunction rates in fluff, range from 17-67 % IIRC, probably even worse

However Marines have the highest level of military technology in the Imperium.

Missile Launchers...variable load missile weapons, i.e. frag, krak (possibly some form of self forging projectile) and can also launch defoliants, plasma missiles and meltas...these arent always that common though.
Krak blow through marine armour, and will likely kill, frag havent got a prayer.


Autocannon

Large caliber heavy cannon, caliber seems to range from .50 to .30 rapid fire weapon, shells are armour piercing solid rounds, Marine armour can take these weapons, and marines can survive penetrations, but humans are screwed.

The Impact of a burst of fire from this weapon in fluff usually seems to knock marines over or backwards.

Multimelta

extremely nasty anti armour weapon, short ranged, but deadly, can take just about any tank in 40k save for Super Heavys, technobabble armoured things etc.

Fluff wise it will kill any infantry unit save units with good energy shields, Terminator armour, or a displacer field

These things reduce armoured bunkers to molten rock.

Marine infantry usually has a lot of these sorts of shoulder/hand carried heavy weapons in addition to armour and aerial weaponry.

Terminator Heavy weapons include.

Assault Cannons: Autocannons bigger, meaner brother.

extremely rapid fire multibarreled gun, fires armour piercing explosive rounds

Marine squads will also have plasma rifles, melta rifles, 40k flamers and grenades

[Vympel]

That's all well and good that the marines have these nifty weapons, but how does one derive the superiority of one over the other? You don't. No one can demonstrate that a clonetrooper rifle (or any SW small arm) won't be able to kill a space marine and vice versa, or an LAAT won't be able to slice up the opposition for breakfast.

[white_rabbit]

That's all well and good that the marines have these nifty weapons, but how does one derive the superiority of one over the other? You don't. No one can demonstrate that a clonetrooper rifle (or any SW small arm) won't be able to kill a space marine and vice versa, or an LAAT won't be able to slice up the opposition for breakfast.

Why cant you ?

Using demonstrated effects, data from films/books etc.

By your approach the whole Versus debate idea is a completely impossible task!

Example, observed effects of the Composite lasers on a LAAT, as compared to descriptions of Turbolasers on 40k titans, of which a T-Hawk can carry.

HE shells? LOL- seeing as how they're high explosive and not armor piercing, clonetroopers have little to fear

Since the Clonetrooper rifles are thermal energy weapons, then the Marines have little to fear

See, anone can claim such things...but then you have to back them up, besides, your point is irrelevent, the marines weapons are DU armour piercing rounds.

Too bad the Titans get blown apart by SPHA-Ts.

I have my doubts those lumbering monstrosities could even manage to hit a Titan, they dont stand still you know

fucking mean air support (LAAT) and direct fire field guns (SPHA-T).

thats nice...but then, the Marines have "fucking mean" airsupport in the form of the Thunderhawk, and carry vastly more heavy weapons than an equal number of clones, as well as using more mobile armour like Raiders and Preds, plus they have their own mobile artillery and direct fire seige tanks.

[white_rabbit]

I wish there was an edit function..


Air support for marines will also come in the form of Speeders, which range from normal speeders with a few heavy weapons, i.e. Hvy Bolter and assault cannon..to more heavily armoured varients with ripple fire anti-armour launchers and assault cannons./multi-meltas

[Typhonis 1]

Titans if they are present also have meters thick armor to bck up the shields and whats to keep them from returning fire?

[NecronLord]

Odysseus: Psychically impregnated rounds, obviously designed for tracking targets, still powerful enough to kill Necron Warriors though

*cough*

Excuse me?

It inflicted damage enough to cause the warrior (the weakest type of necron) to phase out from the battlefield. After several derect hits from a heavy bolter.

[Vympel]

By your approach the whole Versus debate idea is a completely impossible task!

You haven't presented any calcs. This is what versus debate is based on, nothing less.

Example, observed effects of the Composite lasers on a LAAT, as compared to descriptions of Turbolasers on 40k titans, of which a T-Hawk can carry.

? Demonstrate your reasoning.

Since the Clonetrooper rifles are thermal energy weapons, then the Marines have little to fear

Please present evidence that Marines are immune to DC-17 blaster rifle effects.

See, anone can claim such things...but then you have to back them up, besides, your point is irrelevent, the marines weapons are DU armour piercing rounds.

Except it wasn't a real point in the first place. Until someone actually posts hard numbers, this debate will go absolutely nowhere.

I have my doubts those lumbering monstrosities could even manage to hit a Titan, they dont stand still you know

Titans are how big again?

thats nice...but then, the Marines have "fucking mean" airsupport in the form of the Thunderhawk, and carry vastly more heavy weapons than an equal number of clones, as well as using more mobile armour like Raiders and Preds, plus they have their own mobile artillery and direct fire seige tanks.

And I can easily retort that clones also have AT-TEs.

Yet more evidence of this debate going absolutely nowhere. Either side can tout their equipment but because we know jack all calcs about Warhammer ground combat and not very much about clonetroopers either, we're going nowhere.

If anyone has any actual numbers, perhaps we could come to a conclusion. But I doubt it.

[Vympel]

Titans if they are present also have meters thick armor to bck up the shields and whats to keep them from returning fire?

How many metres of what material? Thicker that a Tradefed starship hull? Range of the weapons? Power of the weapons? Power of the SPHA-T?

We don't know shit.

[namdoolb]

Clonetrooper rifle - Power per shot: 8MJ

Effect of 8 MJ on power armour.........

marine armour is constructed of materials far superior to what we use today, but I will limit myself in the qualities I attribute to it.

I will assume a specific heat capacity of 960 J/kg/K (the same as aluminium) (although specific heat capacity is invariably much higher as power armour is ascribed favourable performance against heat based weapons)

I will assume Melting point of 1500 degrees, and boiling point of 2500 degrees (you may recognise these as the approximate melting and boiling points of iron, and this is again erring on the side of caution)
I will assume heat of fusion and vaporisation as the same as Iron


Starting from base temperature of say... 30 degrees.....
You need 1.4MJ to raise 1kg to melting point
you need 2.76*10^5 J (0.27MJ) to melt 1kg
0.96 MJ to raise 1kg from melting point to boiling point
you need 0.629MJ to vapourise 1 kg

For a very conservative total of 3.28 MJ for 1kg

But.... how much is 1 kg?
well, the density of Iron is 7900kg per cubic meter
so 1kg is 0.0001265 cubic meters
which is 126 cubic cm
so, 8MJ will do about 300 cubic cm of the stuff.
that's a cube of side 6.7cm (about the same size as my clenched fist)

That's the high end result for Wars. That downplays the resistance of the power armour. And it assumes absolutely no wasted energy on the part of the clonetrooper rifle.

Marines may not be invulnerable to blaster fire (pour enough of it on them and it'd bring them down) , but they can take it without much of a problem.

[white_rabbit]

Odysseus: Psychically impregnated rounds, obviously designed for tracking targets, still powerful enough to kill Necron Warriors though

*cough*

Excuse me?

It inflicted damage enough to cause the warrior (the weakest type of necron) to phase out from the battlefield. After several derect hits from a heavy bolter.

I thought that might get your attention

Let me reiterate my meaning..


Its not just some sort of tracking beacon, it can still do damage...i.e. it aint a tag dart or some shit.

You haven't presented any calcs. This is what versus debate is based on, nothing less.

Thats what you think ?, how, limited of you, its funny, but I dont see calcs in every versus debate on this board or any.

If you dont like the fact that without calcs, observable effects of weapons and descriptive text are still useful , dont post in this thread

? Demonstrate your reasoning.

Is it that difficult ?

Please present evidence that Marines are immune to DC-17 blaster rifle effects.

please present evidence that Clonetroopers are immune to non-armour penetrating rounds.

And if youve been reading, the Marines dont actually have any solid ammo weapons with non-ap rounds, so this contrast isnt really viable,.

Titans are how big again?

20-80 metres tall. and agile..for their size I suppose. I.e. not hovering nicely so they can get blown away..

And BTW, Titans are not involved, this is pure marine versus clones



[/quote]And I can easily retort that clones also have AT-TEs.

Even if we assume that the weapons of the two sides are roughly similar in power, I would still support a tank over a walker like the AT-TE

Which would have trouble hitting something unless it was directly infront of it from what I can see, with its main weapon anyway, I believe it has some AP turrets.

Tanks on the other hand, can move rather faster than a walker like the AT_TE, have turrets/sponson cannons, better turning speeds, manuverability, terrain crossing abilitys and armour efficiency.

Damn, I cant believe Im arguning for tanks!

we're going nowhere.

You may be, but I rather think others are willing to try..

And you place rather too much emphasis on calcs....calcs are nice....but if a drooling idiot with lightsaber was being fought by Darth Maul who would you back..?

[white_rabbit]

again...mental bugger up..

How I wish for an edit.

[His Divine Shadow]

Clonetrooper rifle - Power per shot: 8MJ

Low-end calculation, also keep in mind that it's transfered in a small fraction of a second to a small area/volume.

Effect of 8 MJ on power armour.........

The same as 2kg of TNT compressed into a very tiny spot would have, you're approach is flawed, you ignore how they actually work, thermal stress.

[His Divine Shadow]

That's the high end result for Wars. That downplays the resistance of the power armour. And it assumes absolutely no wasted energy on the part of the clonetrooper rifle.

No, thats what you get when playing with numbers, thats the low-end result for wars, you use a low-end figure to begin with, you ignore the primary method of how blasters inflict damage, they don't directly vaporize and that's it, no, they work like explosives, they heat up a very small volume very quickly, that will produce thermal stress, and shockwaves, like explosives, that'll tear and shatter and produce large craters, you can see Greedo's entire torso simmering and smoking from a hit to the lower gut, you can see Solo's pistol blowing huge rocks out of a wall, you can see an E-11 blow down a door, the canon TESB novellization mentions that the probot vaporized a Wampa.

[His Divine Shadow]

Here's the reply I intended to give you at SB, Namdoobl, until it stopped working, might as well do it here instead, though this message says nothing thatI haven't alread said, I'll post it anyway:

[Q]And you're going to have to heat it to a few thousand degrees to even reach melting point. That's 3 or 4 million joules gone before you factor in the energy required to actualy melt it.
Then there's further heating required before boiling point, and yet more energy needed to actualy vapourise it....[/Q]

You're ignoring the prime factor of damage here, thermal stress, the shockwave of the flash heating of a small point, and the speed of it, for all intents and purposes we can compare it to TNT, not direct vaporizing.

Anyhow, a blaster will pretty much work on the principle of thermal stress, a small point will be flash heated and vaporized and the explosion it will cause is what kills, oh and given this it's rather impressive when you look at Greedo's death, he's smoking from the back even though Han's pistol would only have affected a small area in his gut directly, this indicates that most of greedo's torso was flash boiled.

[Q]8 megajoules sounds lovely and impressive... I mean, 8 MEGAjoules. But when it comes down to it, it's not really that much.[/Q]

Uuuhhhh, yeah right... Thats like 2kg of TNT going off, more than what you'd expect
Ofcourse 8MJ is a low-end calculation based on using a modern material in comparison to a future material, duracrete(in the book Traitor the world brain of Yuuzhan'Tar was forming a new defensive shell from re-used dura-crete and transparisteel, the result was an armor so strong that a weapon powerfull enough to penetrate would probably crack open the planet it stood on).
I don't think you know how much energy 8MJ is, a tank shot IIRC is around 10MJ.

Here are some blaster impacts for you to look upon:



http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/me ... escape.avi

[xiophen]

Space marines woud have more experience and training then the clonehave or will ever have. space marine recruits usually are survivors of the worst environs on the worst worlds. they have several years of trials where its do or die. then they become recruits and spend the next 10 years getting genetically altered and reengeneered to be 7+ foot tall super men. their armor is specially designed to be a part of them to form a second skin. after this 10 years of training they becomes members of the 10th company scouts. they then spend the next 5 -10 years trianing and getting fighting experince after that they become SM after say 200 years of fighting they become veterans and enter the 1st company which they have access to termie armor.

As far as combat experinece anything short of a jedi is going to end up lacking considering that even raw recruit Sm in power armor have 20+ year of training and combat experince. when it comes to commanders well yoda is a young pup to most chapters commanders who unlike yoda have fought one war after another for arround 1k years

As white rabbit meantioned earlier by fluff SM armor can absorb shots and deflect most every weapon thrown at them short of light vehcles.
The clone guns will kill or incapacitate alot of marines but one on one a SM has more expierence training better armored and equiped.

the SM jump pack and termies teleporting into the mist of clone lines artilary and command centers. now the jedi would be the problem but SM characters in termie armor or with field should equalize jedis with light sabers as well as libraians which psy powers are more agressive.

As for vehicles...
SM Thawks are the troop transports plu svehicles what about the fighters?
thawks are bigger faster and way more heavily armed and armoured then the LAATs those are more like a light huey where the Thawk is more comparable to a heavily armed blackhawk

As for the land vehicles..
The clones heavy artiliary peice while direct fire is actually nasty enough to cause real damage to SM Lines the AT's would be an interesting match for the LAnd Raider and predator..... our indirect and direct artillary weapons will equally cause havok in clone lines and vehicles as well as the fast moving Land speeders. will cause lots of havokalong the clone lines and against the ATs.



White Rabbit one question you using current chapters or legions cause if you add primarchs thats just mean.......


Well to give the marines even numbers or close it at least be 2 or 3 chapters.... if you added the black templars that chapter might be able to do it alone. if you do a legion on of the smaller one probably cause from what you see on the screen the Clones couldnt have numbered more then maybe 10k
its going to be bloody but I think a dug in marine force has more options wepaons and combat experince then your clones for the most part are really green they are trained but un tried and their genetic order following traites make them a little wont agaisnt Sm which have possible seen deamonic entities nids and other nasties.

[xiophen]

Oh yeah and I forgot jum pack troops and termies porting into the mists of the clones would cause havok at close ranges where they are equiped and trained to rip apart heavy vehicles and troopsers.