Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

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Murazor
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Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

Post by Murazor »

Last January I wrote a thread titled "Robotic Mechanics" with commented quotes from Asimov's robot stories. That thread met an untimely end (I am still attempting to complete the comments for an eventual continuation), but considering that the goal was the creation of a resource for versus debating I have decided that the Trantorian Empire and the Foundation (that feature much more often in versus debates) deserved the spotlight. This is the result. Constructive feedback is welcome.

FOUNDATION

I- THE PSYCHOHISTORIANS (12,067 G.E.)

1.
... Undoubtedly his greatest contributions were in the field of psychohistory. Seldon found the field little more than a set of vague axioms; he left it a profound statistical science....
Psychohistory (at least in a germinal form) predated Seldon's research.
He had seen it many times on the hyper-video, and occasionally in tremendous three-dimensional newscasts covering an Imperial coronation or the opening of a Galactic Council. Even though he had lived all his life on the world of Synnax, which circled a star at the edges of the Blue Drift, he was not cut off from civilization, you see. At that time, no place in the Galaxy was.
Even a student of limited means from a backwater planet can afford an interstellar trip and even backwater planets have constant communications with the centers of galactic civilization.
There were nearly twenty-five million inhabited planets in the Galaxy then, and not one but owed allegiance to the Empire whose seat was on Trantor. It was the last half century in which that could be said.
General scope and holdings of the Galactic Empire.
The Jump remained, and would probably remain forever, the only practical method of travelling between the stars. Travel through ordinary space could proceed at no rate more rapid than that of ordinary light (a bit of scientific knowledge that belonged among the items known since the forgotten dawn of human history), and that would have meant years of travel between even the nearest of inhabited systems. Through hyper-space, that unimaginable region that was neither space nor time, matter nor energy, something nor nothing, one could traverse the length of the Galaxy in the interval between two neighboring instants of time.
It is quite clearly stated that no form of realspace faster than light locomotion is known in the Foundation universe. It is quite clearly stated that it is possible for a ship to jump between opposite extremes of the Galaxy, yet this is never done in the novels (with the possible exception of an off-screen event in "Peeble in the Sky"). The rationalization must be that it isn't practical to make such long jumps.
"Oh. Sorry, my boy. If this were a space-yacht we might manage it. But we're spinning down, sunside. You wouldn't want to be blinded, burnt, and radiation-scarred all at the same time, would you?"
A quite odd warning, considering that even polarized crystal should provide some protection against such dangers. It seems possible that this civilian starship lacks force-shield protection.

2.
Gaal felt the slight jar that indicated the ship no longer had an independent motion of its own. Ship's gravity had been giving way to planetary gravity for hours. Thousands of passengers had been sitting
patiently in the debarkation rooms which swung easily on yielding force-fields to accommodate its orientation to the changing direction of the gravitational forces. Now they were crawling down curving ramps to the
large, yawning locks.
This starship is large enough to accommodate thousands of passengers. The sketchy details given about its propulsion and gravity compensation systems suggest relatively modest acceleration figures. But then this is a civilian cruiser and the hours needed to land might be out of environmental concerns (the energy from thousands to millions of starships landing every day could well have detrimental effects in Trantor's atmosphere).
Debarkation Building was tremendous. The roof was almost lost in the heights. Gaal could almost imagine that clouds could form beneath its
immensity. He could see no opposite wall; just men and desks and converging floor till it faded out in haze.
Size of some constructions in Trantor. This "chamber" might be several kilometers tall, considering usual heights for cloud formation.
The taxi lifted straight up. Gaal stared out the curved, transparent window, marvelling at the sensation of airflight within an enclosed structure and clutching instinctively at the back of the driver's seat. The vastness contracted and the people became ants in random distribution. The scene contracted further and began to slide backward.
[...]
Gaal leaned forward against deceleration then and the taxi popped out of the tunnel and descended to ground-level once more.
At the very least, aerotaxis lack inertia compensation systems.
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Post by Murazor »

3.
TRANTOR–...At the beginning of the thirteenth millennium, this tendency reached its climax. As the center of the Imperial Government for unbroken hundreds of generations and located, as it was, toward the central regions of the Galaxy among the most densely populated and industrially advanced worlds of the system, it could scarcely help being the densest and richest clot of humanity the Race had ever seen.

Its urbanization, progressing steadily, had finally reached the ultimate. All the land surface of Trantor, 75,000,000 square miles in extent, was a single city. The population, at its height, was well in excess of forty billions. This enormous population was devoted almost entirely to the administrative necessities of Empire, and found themselves all too few for the complications of the task. (It is to be remembered that the impossibility of proper administration of the Galactic Empire under the uninspired leadership of the later Emperors was a considerable factor in the Fall.) Daily, fleets of ships in the tens of thousands brought the produce of twenty agricultural worlds to the dinner tables of Trantor....

Its dependence upon the outer worlds for food and, indeed, for all necessities of life, made Trantor increasingly vulnerable to conquest by siege. In the last millennium of the Empire, the monotonously numerous revolts made Emperor after Emperor conscious of this, and Imperial policy became little more than the protection of Trantor's delicate jugular vein...
Highly explanatory description of Trantor's inmense city and its vulnerabilities. Fleets of tens of thousands are used to supply the capital planet. Also, the central regions of the Galaxy have the higher concentration of industry and population...

Considering that a figure of almost one quintillion (1E18) is given for galactic population and Trantor apparently has 40 billion * (4E10), we can suppose that there is at least a spaceship for every 1-10 million humans in the Empire. This suggests that there are at least hundreds of billions of spaceships.

* Trantor's population is a complicated matter. The description of its cityscape is fairly consistent with that of Coruscant. If we handwave the 40 billion figure as "permanent residents" or "native Trantorians" and use the assumptions made by Curtis Saxton to calculate Coruscant's population, we get very low end figures for Trantor in the single digit trillions.
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Post by Murazor »

Pressed submit too soon, damnit.
The elevator was of the new sort that ran by gravitic repulsion. Gaal entered and others flowed in behind him. The operator closed a contact. For a moment, Gaal felt suspended in space as gravity switched to zero, and then he had weight again in small measure as the elevator accelerated upward. Deceleration followed and his feet left the floor. He squawked against his will.
Grav-lifts, the very beginning of the technology that the Foundation developed to create the gravitic drive.
He could not see the ground. It was lost in the ever increasing complexities of man-made structures. He could see no horizon other than that of metal against sky, stretching out to almost uniform grayness, and he knew it was so over all the land-surface of the planet. There was scarcely any motion to be seen – a few pleasure-craft lazed against the sky-but all the busy traffic of billions of men were going on, he knew, beneath the metal skin of the world.
There was no green to be seen; no green, no soil, no life other than man. Somewhere on the world, he realized vaguely, was the Emperor's palace, set amid one hundred square miles of natural soil, green with trees, rainbowed with flowers. It was a small island amid an ocean of steel, but it wasn't visible from where he stood. It might be ten thousand miles away. He did not know.
Trantor's outer shell appears to be fully metalic (which partially contradicts other descriptions, BTW).
"Thought so. Jerril's my first name. Trantor gets you if you've got the poetic temperament. Trantorians never come up here, though. They don't like it. Gives them nerves."
"Nerves! – My name's Gaal, by the way. Why should it give them nerves? It's glorious."
"Subjective matter of opinion, Gaal. If you're born in a cubicle and grow up in a corridor, and work in a cell, and vacation in a crowded sun-room, then coming up into the open with nothing but sky over you might just give you a nervous breakdown. They make the children come up here once a year, after they're five. I don't know if it does any good. They don't get enough of it, really, and the first few times they scream themselves into hysteria. They ought to start as soon as they're weaned and have the trip once a week."
The agoraphobia of native Trantorians is mentioned for the first time.
"I know. But most of the time it was just getting up to ground level. Trantor is tunneled over a mile down. It's like an iceberg. Nine-tenths of it is out of sight. It even works itself out a few miles into the sub-ocean soil at the shorelines. In fact, we're down so low that we can make use of the temperature difference between ground level and a couple of miles under to supply us with all the energy we need. Did you know that?"
"No, I thought you used atomic generators."
"Did once. But this is cheaper."
Self explanatory. Details about the depth and energy supply in the Trantorian cityscape.

4.
PSYCHOHISTORY–...Gaal Dornick, using nonmathematical concepts, has defined psychohistory to be that branch of mathematics which deals with the reactions of human conglomerates to fixed social and economic stimuli....
... Implicit in all these definitions is the assumption that the human conglomerate being dealt with is sufficiently large for valid statistical treatment. The necessary size of such a conglomerate may be determined by Seldon's First Theorem which ... A further necessary assumption is that the human conglomerate be itself unaware of psychohistoric analysis in order that its reactions be truly random ...
Psychohistory 101.
"Before you are done with me, young man, you will learn to apply psychohistory to all problems as a matter of course. –Observe." Seldon removed his calculator pad from the pouch at his belt. Men said he kept one beneath his pillow for use in moments of wakefulness. Its gray, glossy finish was slightly worn by use. Seldon's nimble fingers, spotted now with age, played along the files and rows of buttons that filled its surface. Red symbols glowed out from the upper tier.
Just for naysayers, the Empire quite clearly has miniaturized informatic technology. Considering that Seldon uses this "calculator pad" to make a simplified simulation of the Empire, it seems likely that it is more akin to a minicomputer.
Finally, Seldon stopped. "This is Trantor three centuries from now. How do you interpret that? Eh?" He put his head to one side and waited.
Gaal said, unbelievingly, "Total destruction! But – but that is impossible. Trantor has never been –"
Seldon was filled with the intense excitement of a man whose body only had grown old. "Come, come. You saw how the result was arrived at. Put it into words. Forget the symbolism for a moment."
Gaal said, "As Trantor becomes more specialized, it be comes more vulnerable, less able to defend itself. Further, as it becomes more and more the administrative center of Empire, it becomes a greater prize. As the Imperial succession becomes more and more uncertain, and the feuds among the great families more rampant, social responsibility disappears. "
"Enough. And what of the numerical probability of total destruction within three centuries?"
"I couldn't tell."
"Surely you can perform a field-differentiation?"
Gaal felt himself under pressure. He was not offered the calculator pad. It was held a foot from his eyes. He calculated furiously and felt his forehead grow slick with sweat.
He said, "About 85%?"
"Not bad," said Seldon, thrusting out a lower lip, "but not good. The actual figure is 92.5%."
Interesting psychohistoric calculations about Trantor's destruction and a partial explanation of the causes behind the Fall.
"Not necessarily. All is taken into account."
"But is that why I'm being investigated?"
"Yes. Everything about my project is being investigated."
"Are you in danger, sir?"
"Oh, yes. There is probability of 1.7% that I will be executed, but of course that will not stop the project. We have taken that into account as well. Well, never mind. You will meet me, I suppose, at the University tomorrow?"
Going by this, Seldon is confident in psychohistory's ability to deal with an extremely limited group. He either lied to calm Dornick or the Second Foundation uses psychohistory worse than its creator (of course, it is possible that Seldon was confident because his granddaughter and other psionic allies are moving in the sidelines).
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Get to the part where they have spaceships powered by fossil fuels. :lol:
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Post by Molyneux »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Get to the part where they have spaceships powered by fossil fuels. :lol:
...buh?
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Post by Murazor »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Get to the part where they have spaceships powered by fossil fuels. :lol:
Unfortunately, I can't do such a thing, because there is no mention of any spaceships using just chemical energy. The Four Kingdoms lost their nuclear economy, but used Imperial spaceships still in working order.

5.
"Wait. I have a right to a lawyer. I demand my rights as an Imperial citizen."
[...]
"Is that so? Well, then, look here. I demand an instant appeal to the Emperor. I'm being held without cause. I'm innocent of anything. Of anything." He slashed his hands outward, palms down, "You've got to arrange a hearing with the Emperor, instantly."
[...]
Avakim, paying no attention to Gaal's outburst, finally looked up. He said, "The Commission will, of course, have a spy beam on our conversation. This is against the law, but they will use one nevertheless."
Some comments about Imperial law, just in case the lawyers among us have interest. I find moderately interesting the disregard for the law shown here by the elite.
"However," and Avakim seated himself deliberately, "the recorder I have on the table, – which is a perfectly ordinary recorder to all appearances and performs it duties well – has the additional property of completely blanketing the spy beam. This is something they will not find out at once."
A useful little protection against unwanted spying. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how spy-beams are supposed to work.
Gaal said, "Indeed? In that case, if Dr. Seldon can predict the history of Trantor three hundred years into the future –"
"He can predict it fifteen hundred years into the future."
"Let it be fifteen thousand. Why couldn't he yesterday have predicted the events of this morning and warned me. –No, I'm sorry." Gaal sat down and rested his head in one sweating palm, "I quite understand that psychohistory is a statistical science and cannot predict the future of a single man with any accuracy. You'll understand that I'm upset."
"But you are wrong. Dr. Seldon was of the opinion that you would be arrested this morning."
"What!"
"It is unfortunate, but true. The Commission has been more and more hostile to his activities. New members joining the group have been interfered with to an increasing extent. The graphs showed that for our purposes, matters might best be brought to a climax now. The Commission of itself was moving somewhat slowly so Dr. Seldon visited you yesterday for the purpose of forcing their hand. No other reason."
By triggering the crisis himself, Seldon probably lessens the number of factors to consider. This might be the reason that allows him to make limited psychohistoric predictions in this particular instance.

6.
Q. You do not consider your statement a disloyal one?
A. No, sir. Scientific truth is beyond loyalty and disloyalty.
Q. You are sure that your statement represents scientific truth?
A. I am.
Q. On what basis?
A. On the basis of the mathematics of psychohistory.
Q. Can you prove that this mathematics is valid'?
A. Only to another mathematician.
Q. (with a smile) Your claim then is that your truth is of so esoteric a nature that it is beyond the understanding of a plain man. It seems to me that truth should be clearer than that, less mysterious, more open to the mind.
The decreasing quality of scientifical education in the Empire results in some rather interesting opinions about the subjective nature of reality. I suppose that many in this particular board will appreciate Asimov's irony.
A. Consider that Trantor has a population of over forty billions. Consider further that the trend leading to ruin does not belong to Trantor alone but to the Empire as a whole and the Empire contains nearly a quintillion human beings.
[...]
Q. (theatrically) Do you realize, Dr. Seldon, that you are speaking of an Empire that has stood for twelve thousand years, through all the vicissitudes of the generations, and which has behind it the good wishes and love of a quadrillion human beings?
A. I am aware both of the present status and the past history of the Empire. Without disrespect, I must claim a far better knowledge of it than any in this room.
Galactic population: Almost a quintillion (~1E18 humans). Although the Advocate seems to imply figures much smaller than Seldon's, the character himself claims a better understanding of the galaxy. Even at the worst points of the Fall, the Milky Way can be calculated to have at least tens of quadrillions.
A. (firmly) The Empire will vanish and all its good with it. Its accumulated knowledge will decay and the order it has imposed will vanish. Interstellar wars will be endless; interstellar trade will decay; population will decline; worlds will lose touch with the main body of the Galaxy. –And so matters will remain.
Q. (a small voice in the middle of a vast silence) Forever?
A. Psychohistory, which can predict the fall, can make statements concerning the succeeding dark ages. The Empire, gentlemen, as has just been said, has stood twelve thousand years. The dark ages to come will endure not twelve, but thirty thousand years. A Second Empire will rise, but between it and our civilization will be one thousand generations of suffering humanity. We must fight that.
Seldon predicts the results of the Fall... and the ostensible reasons for the existence of his project.

8.
"Quietly. Quietly. Let us reach my office."
It was not a large office, but it was quite spy-proof and quite undetectably so. Spy-beams trained upon it received neither a suspicious silence nor an even more suspicious static. They received, rather, a conversation constructed at random out of a vast stock of innocuous phrases in various tones and voices.
An advanced version of the anti-spy system mentioned previously. Apparently, spy-beams are used to overhear conversations.
"Because, my boy, in a plan such as ours, the actions of others are bent to our needs. Have I not said to you already that Chen's temperamental makeup has been subjected to greater scrutiny than that of any other single man in history. The trial was not allowed to begin until the time and circumstances were fight for the ending of our own choosing."
"But could you have arranged–"
"–to be exiled to Terminus? Why not?" He put his fingers on a certain spot on his desk and a small section of the wall behind him slid aside. Only his own fingers could have done so, since only his particular print-pattern could have activated the scanner beneath.
"You will find several microfilms inside," said Seldon. "Take the one marked with the letter, T."
Seldon was in control all the time during his trial up to his sentence, that allowed the creation of the Foundation in the planet of his choice. If this is not psychohistory, it is at the very least high level manipulation (perhaps the result of mentalics at work).
"Why, there will be successors – perhaps even yourself. And these successors will be able to apply the final touch in the scheme and instigate the revolt on Anacreon at the right time and in the right manner. Thereafter, events may roll unheeded."
Apparently the route prepared by Seldon needs a guiding hand in the very first moments. We don't know whether the Second Foundation kept the First under surveillance in the very first crisis.
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Post by Xenophobe3691 »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Get to the part where they have spaceships powered by fossil fuels. :lol:
Never heard of a Kerosene powered rocket, I see...
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Post by Murazor »

II- THE ENCYCLOPEDISTS (12,117-8 G.E.)

1.
TERMINUS–... Its location (see map) was an odd one for the role it was called upon to play in Galactic history, and yet as many writers have never tired of pointing out, an inevitable one. Located on the very fringe of the Galactic spiral, an only planet of an isolated sun, poor in resources and negligible in economic value, it was never settled in the five centuries after its discovery, until the landing of the Encyclopedists....
The cradle of the First Foundation. A very minor noteworthy detail is the mention of continued galactic exploration during the Empire.
It had been done. Five more years would see the publication of the first volume of the most monumental work the Galaxy had ever conceived. And then at ten-year intervals – regularly – like clockwork – volume after volume. And with them there would be supplements; special articles on events of current interest, until–
Another minor, yet interesting detail, is the enormous amount of material that the Galactic Encyclopedia must span if it takes fifty years of effort for hundreds of thousands of persons to compile all the information.
"Have you heard the news?" questioned Hardin, phlegmatically.
"What news?"
"The news that the Terminus City ultrawave set received two hours ago. The Royal Governor of the Prefect of Anacreon has assumed the title of king."
"Well? What of it?"
"It means," responded Hardin, "that we're cut off from the inner regions of the Empire. We've been expecting it but that doesn't make it any more comfortable. Anacreon stands square across what was our last remaining trade route to Santanni and to Trantor and to Vega itself. Where is our metal to come from? We haven't managed to get a steel or aluminum shipment through in six months and now we won't be able to get any at all, except by grace of the King of Anacreon."
Even a very small planet (pop. 1,000,000 at this point) has ultrawave communications, although this might be the result of Imperial sponsorship. A relative oddity is that Vega is apparently an important trade partner of Terminus at this point (different worlds in the Sirius sector have featured prominently in the series), despite being located almost in the opposite extreme of the Milky Way.
"Do something about that paper of yours!" Pirenne's voice was angry.
"The Terminus City Journal? It isn't mine; it's privately owned. What's it been doing?"
Although the Empire (and very particularly Trantor) sometimes resembles Earth's communist society in the Caves of Steel era, it is quite clear that the economy has at least some capitalist components.
"Not for silly pageantry, Hardin. The Vault and its opening concern the Board of Trustees alone. Anything of importance will be communicated to the people. That is final and please make it plain to the Journal."
"I'm sorry, Pirenne, but the City Charter guarantees a certain minor matter known as freedom of the press."
"It may. But the Board of Trustees does not. I am the Emperor's representative on Terminus, Hardin, and have full powers in this respect."
It seems that although "essential" liberties are usually respected, they are more of a concession of His Imperial Majesty (that His representatives can withdraw) than inalienable rights.

2.
"A strange world! You have no peasantry?"
Hardin reflected that it didn't require a great deal of acumen to tell that his eminence was indulging in a bit of fairly clumsy pumping. He replied casually, "No – nor nobility."
Haut Rodric's eyebrows lifted. "And your leader – the man I am to meet?"
"You mean Dr. Pirenne? Yes! He is the Chairman of the Board of Trustees – and a personal representative of the Emperor."
"Doctor? No other title? A scholar? And he rates above the civil authority?"
The existence of this "peasantry" during the Empire is uncertain, although great aristocratic families are known to exist. At any rate, after the Fall many worlds regressed to a full-blown feudal society.
The dinner that evening was much the mirror image of the events of that afternoon, for Haut Rodric monopolized the conversation by describing – in minute technical detail and with incredible zest – his own exploits as battalion head during the recent war between Anacreon and the neighboring newly proclaimed Kingdom of Smyrno.
The details of the sub-prefect's account were not completed until dinner was over and one by one the minor officials had drifted away. The last bit of triumphant description of mangled spaceships came when he had accompanied Pirenne and Hardin onto the balcony and relaxed in the warm air of the summer evening.
Battalion seems to be an army unit (I have checked all English dictionaries I have avalaible, if you know better please correct me), so either the destruction of spaceships has happened during landing actions or the "barbarian kingdoms" have avalaible weapons for its ground troops that can hit objects in orbit.
"Let's get back to business," urged Hardin. "How would you take these so-called taxes, your eminence? Would you take them in kind: wheat, potatoes, vegetables, cattle?"
The sub-prefect stared. "What the devil? What do we need with those? We've got hefty surpluses. Gold, of course. Chromium or vanadium would be even better, incidentally, if you have it in quantity."
Hardin laughed. "Quantity! We haven't even got iron in quantity. Gold! Here, take a look at our currency." He tossed a coin to the envoy.
Haut Rodric bounced it and stared. "What is it? Steel?"
The Fall didn't cause the collapse of agrarian production (at least in the luckiest planets), although the distribution networks must have been hit hard. Apparently, the industry was badly affected too.
In another, unrelated note, it seems that the mintage of money in a given planet is the responsability of the local authorities (the Trantorian authorities probably set the official value of the "credit").
And then Hardin said ingenuously: "Could Anacreon supply us with adequate quantities of plutonium for our nuclear-power plant? We've only a few years' supply left."
There was a gasp from Pirenne and then a dead silence for minutes. When Haut Rodric spoke it was in a voice quite different from what it had been till then:
"You have nuclear power?"
"Certainly. What's unusual in that? I imagine nuclear power is fifty thousand years old now. Why shouldn't we have it? Except that it's a little difficult to get plutonium."
[...]
"That Anacreon no longer has a nuclear-power economy. If they had, our friend would undoubtedly have realized that plutonium, except in ancient tradition is not used in power plants. And therefore it follows that the rest of the Periphery no longer has nuclear power either. Certainly Smyrno hasn't, or Anacreon wouldn't have won most of the battles in their recent war. Interesting, wouldn't you say?"
"Bah!" Pirenne left in fiendish humor, and Hardin smiled gently.
He threw his cigar away and looked up at the outstretched Galaxy. "Back to oil and coal, are they?" he murmured – and what the rest of his thoughts were he kept to himself.
The main inmediate consequence of the Fall seems to be the complete loss of advanced forms of energy production. From Hardin's comments we can almost certainly rule out fission, although fusion is still a possibility. Also, Hardin seems to be certain that with a nuclear economy, Smyrno would have been able to defeat the larger and more populated kingdom of Anacreon.
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Post by Nyrath »

I have a short reading list on the possibility of developing an actual science of Psychohistory here:
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket ... chohistory

I have some general notes on interstellar empires here:
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3ac.html
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

Post by Winston Blake »

Murazor wrote:
Debarkation Building was tremendous. The roof was almost lost in the heights. Gaal could almost imagine that clouds could form beneath its
immensity. He could see no opposite wall; just men and desks and converging floor till it faded out in haze.
Size of some constructions in Trantor. This "chamber" might be several kilometers tall, considering usual heights for cloud formation.
The Vehicle Assembly Building used for the Space Shuttle has so much interior volume that clouds form and it rains inside (on humid days). It's only 160 meters tall.
Robert Gilruth to Max Faget on the Apollo program: “Max, we’re going to go back there one day, and when we do, they’re going to find out how tough it is.”
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

Post by Srynerson »

Winston Blake wrote:
Murazor wrote:
Debarkation Building was tremendous. The roof was almost lost in the heights. Gaal could almost imagine that clouds could form beneath its immensity. He could see no opposite wall; just men and desks and converging floor till it faded out in haze.
Size of some constructions in Trantor. This "chamber" might be several kilometers tall, considering usual heights for cloud formation.
The Vehicle Assembly Building used for the Space Shuttle has so much interior volume that clouds form and it rains inside (on humid days). It's only 160 meters tall.
It could also be added that description merely says "Gaal could almost imagine" clouds forming, which is pretty subjective. The horizontal distance is more interesting since, in absence of any reference to smoke or fog, it must be several kilometers.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Murazor wrote:Unfortunately, I can't do such a thing, because there is no mention of any spaceships using just chemical energy. The Four Kingdoms lost their nuclear economy, but used Imperial spaceships still in working order.
Sure there is. When they find the drifting Imperial spaceship which they restore and give to Anacreon. You know, the one that they say that they don't make 'em like that anymore and that it's "Q-Beams" could destroy a planet? I could swear one character mentions the loss of nuclear power and that they have gone back to coal and oil for fuel.
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Post by JadeOwl »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Murazor wrote:Unfortunately, I can't do such a thing, because there is no mention of any spaceships using just chemical energy. The Four Kingdoms lost their nuclear economy, but used Imperial spaceships still in working order.
Sure there is. When they find the drifting Imperial spaceship which they restore and give to Anacreon. You know, the one that they say that they don't make 'em like that anymore and that it's "Q-Beams" could destroy a planet? I could swear one character mentions the loss of nuclear power and that they have gone back to coal and oil for fuel.
All those references to using coal and oil are made about the planetary economies.

Just because the delerict Imperial Cruiser was far more advanced than any of the ships in the Four Kingdoms's fleets doesn't mean that Anacreon and the others where using coal powered ships.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

Salvor Hardin, Isaac Asimov "Bridle and Saddle" (aka "The Mayors", in Foundation), 1942.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

Trantor's population estimate always bothered me. Forty billion people over 75 million square miles is only 533 people per square mile. That's not very dense, certainly not on the order of population density of planet that is completely urbanized (unless significant parts of Trantor aren't complete cityscape).
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Post by Gustav32Vasa »

Guardsman Bass wrote:Trantor's population estimate always bothered me. Forty billion people over 75 million square miles is only 533 people per square mile. That's not very dense, certainly not on the order of population density of planet that is completely urbanized (unless significant parts of Trantor aren't complete cityscape).
Those 40 billion were those that lived on Trantor, billions other came to Trantor to get there education.
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Post by Murazor »

Nyrath. Thanks for the links. There was some interesting material in there.

Winston Blake & Srynerson. Your objections and comments have been duly noted. Thank you.

Gil Hamilton. I will eventually cover "The Mayors". For the moment, can you accept my word that no such comments are made for spaceships? As pointed by JadeOwl, chemical energy was used after the Fall in planetary economies.

3.
"Great space!" Hardin felt annoyed. "What is this? Every once in a while someone mentions 'Emperor' or 'Empire' as if it were a magic word. The Emperor is thousands of parsecs away, and I doubt whether he gives a damn about us. And if he does, what can he do? What there was of the imperial navy in these regions is in the hands of the four kingdoms now and Anacreon has its share. Listen, we have to fight with guns, not with words.
Despite this statement, the fleet must have had a very limited fleet presence in the area, considering the enormous importance for the Anacreonian fleet of finding the Wienis (after thirty years of improvements with early Foundation technology).
"Hold on: I'm not finished." Hardin was warming up. He liked this. "It's all very well to drag chancellors into this, but it would be much nicer to drag a few great big siege guns fitted for beautiful nuclear bombs into it. We've lost two months, gentlemen, and we may not have another two months to lose. What do you propose to do?"
A mention is made of "siege guns" with the ability to mount nuclear warheads. We know absolutely nothing else about these weapons, but I dare to hypothetize that ray weapons might have adverse effects in an atmosphere. This would explain the usage of explosive projectiles.
And Hardin leaped through the opening. "Are you, though? That's a nice hallucination, isn't it? Your bunch here is a perfect example of what's been wrong with the entire Galaxy for thousands of years. What kind of science is it to be stuck out here for centuries classifying the work of scientists of the last millennium? Have you ever thought of working onward, extending their knowledge and improving upon it? No! You're quite happy to stagnate. The whole Galaxy is, and has been for space knows how long. That's why the Periphery is revolting; that's why communications are breaking down; that's why petty wars are becoming eternal; that's why whole systems are losing nuclear power and going back to barbarous techniques of chemical power.
Self-explanatory. A first hand account of the death of scientifical method and how the galaxy is going down the shitter at this point.
Hardin answered, half in reverie: "Yes, I never completed my studies, though. I got tired of theory. I wanted to be a psychological engineer, but we lacked the facilities, so I did the next best thing – I went into politics. It's practically the same thing."
¿Psychological engineering and lack of facilities? Ignoring sinister options about mind control and the like, it is possible that psychological engineer is a fancy name for sociologist.

4.
"Which question?" asked Hardin.
"The 'Owigin Question.' The place of the owigin of the human species, y'know. Suahly you must know that it is thought that owiginally the human wace occupied only one planetawy system."
"Well, yes, I know that."
"Of cohse, no one knows exactly which system it is – lost in the mists of antiquity. Theah ah theawies, howevah. Siwius, some say. Othahs insist on Alpha Centauwi, oah on Sol, oah on 61 Cygni – all in the Siwius sectah, you see."
Although humankind origins have been forgotten, Earth itself hasn't disappeared yet in mistery through the actions of R. Daneel and his followers.
"No. It's this: Last year we received news here in Terminus about the meltdown of a power plant on Planet V of Gamma Andromeda. We got the barest outline of the accident – no details at all. I wonder if you could tell me exactly what happened."
Pirenne's mouth twisted. "I wonder you annoy his lordship with questions on totally irrelevant subjects."
"Not at all, Doctah Piwenne," interceded the chancellor. "It is quite all wight. Theah isn't much to say concuhning it in any case. The powah plant did undergo meltdown and it was quite a catastwophe, y'know. I believe wadiatsen damage. Weally, the govuhnment is sewiously considewing placing seveah westwictions upon the indiscwiminate use of nucleah powah – though that is not a thing for genewal publication, y'know."
"I understand," said Hardin. "But what was wrong with the plant?"
"Well, weally," replied Lord Dorwin indifferently, "who knows? It had bwoken down some yeahs pweviously and it is thought that the weplacements and wepaiah wuhk wuh most infewiah. It is so difficult these days to find men who weally undahstand the moah technical details of ouah powah systems." And he took a sorrowful pinch of snuff.
More about the decadence of energy production, this time within the Empire itself. We can draw a line between this disasters and the negative attitudes regarding science. BTW, some editions mention that at least half the planet burned to cinders (or something similar) and that millions perished in the accident, but I am not certain of the canon status of this descriptions. Nonetheless, the mere fact that an accident has made news in a full galactic society implies that the accident was extremely grave.
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

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5.
"In a rather simple way. It merely required the use of that much-neglected commodity – common sense. You see, there is a branch of human knowledge known as symbolic logic, which can be used to prune away all sorts of clogging deadwood that clutters up human language."
"What about it?" said Fulham.
"I applied it. Among other things, I applied it to this document here. I didn't really need to for myself because I knew what it was all about, but I think I can explain it more easily to five physical scientists by symbols rather than by words."
Hardin removed a few sheets of paper from the pad under his arm and spread them out. "I didn't do this myself, by the way," he said. "Muller Holk of the Division of Logic has his name signed to the analyses, as you can see." Pirenne leaned over the table to get a better view and Hardin continued: "The message from Anacreon was a simple problem, naturally, for the men who wrote it were men of action rather than men of words. It boils down easily and straightforwardly to the unqualified statement, when in symbols is what you see, and which in words, roughly translated, is, 'You give us what we want in a week, or we take it by force.'"
Mathematics applied to linguistic analysis to get a psychological interpretation sounds like a moderately interesting (and potentially useful) science.

7.
They didn't go out, but merely yellowed and sank with a suddenness that made Hardin jump. He had lifted his eyes to the ceiling lights in startled fashion, and when he brought them down the glass cubicle was no longer empty.
A figure occupied it‚ a figure in a wheel chair!
It said nothing for a few moments, but it closed the book upon its lap and fingered it idly. And then it smiled, and the face seemed all alive.
It said, "I am Hari Seldon." The voice was old and soft.
Hardin almost rose to acknowledge the introduction and stopped himself in the act.
Seldon's first holographic appearance. The image must be extremely life-like to get such an effect from Hardin.
"This, by the way, is a rather straightforward crisis, much simpler than many of those that are ahead. To reduce it to its fundamentals, it is this: You are a planet suddenly cut off from the still-civilized centers of the Galaxy, and threatened by your stronger neighbors. You are a small world of scientists surrounded by vast and rapidly expanding reaches of barbarism. You are an island of nuclear power in a growing ocean of more primitive energy; but are helpless despite that, because of your lack of metals.
Seldon's explanation of the Foundation's situation during the First Crisis.
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

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II- THE MAYORS (79-80 F.E.)

1.
"Yes, I know that. I suppose that's why you're the one man I trust." He paused and reached for a cigar. "We've come a long way, Lee, since we engineered our coup against the Encyclopedists way back. I'm getting old. Sixty-two. Do you ever think how fast those thirty years went?"

Lee snorted. "I don't feel old, and I'm sixty-six."
Hardin considers that with little over sixty years he is "getting old", although the slightly older Lee seems to disagree. It is possible that Terminus' isolation resulted in a decrease in life expectancy.
How the mighty had fallen! Kingdoms! They were prefects in the old days, all part of the same province, which in turn had been part of a sector, which in turn had been part of a quadrant, which in turn had been part of the allembracing Galactic Empire. And now that the Empire had lost control over the farther reaches of the Galaxy, these little splinter groups of planets became kingdoms – with comic-opera kings and nobles, and petty, meaningless wars, and a life that went on pathetically among the ruins.
Imperial administrative division. We know that a prefect (that may or may not be typical) contains roughly twenty-five star systems (thus, around one million of these would exist in the whole Empire) and some comments hint that a province would have around thirty prefects (~1,000 systems). Lastly, a quadrant might mean a fourth of the galactic disk (suggesting that each would have around six million worlds). Unfortunately there is no information about the possible size of a sector.
Lee was at the window and his voice broke in on Hardin's reverie. "They've come," he said, "in a late-model ground car, the young pups." He took a few uncertain steps toward the door and then looked at Hardin.
The "ground" qualifier suggests that even Terminus (a small, isolated and metal-free world) still has some cars that aren't landbound.
"I make no such suggestion, Mr. Mayor. It is our simple proposition that all appeasement cease immediately. Throughout your administration, you have carried out a policy of scientific aid to the Kingdoms. You have given them nuclear power. You have helped rebuild power plants on their territories. You have established medical clinics, chemical laboratories and factories."

[...]

"Because you have given them power, given them weapons, actually serviced the ships of their navies, they are infinitely stronger than they were three decades ago. Their demands are increasing, and with their new weapons, they will eventually satisfy all their demands at once by violent annexation of Terminus. Isn't that the way blackmail usually ends?"
Sermak's rant might be biased, but it is probably accurate, considering that Hardin considered him a serious political threat.
Hardin frowned. "What of that? I don't see that it has anything to do with the argument at all. I started that way at first because the barbarians looked upon our science as a sort of magical sorcery, and it was easiest to get them to accept it on that basis. The priesthood built itself and if we help it along we are only following the line of least resistance. It is a minor matter."
This pathetic level of superstition suggests that the fall of scientific knowledge must have begun long before Anacreonian independence.

2.
He changed into his civilian clothes – a holiday in itself – and boarded a passenger liner to the Foundation, second class. Once at Terminus, he threaded his way through the crowd at the spaceport and called up City Hall at a public visiphone.
Thirty years after the Fall, interstellar travel is open for citizens of limited means using passenger spaceships. It is likely that these ships are of new construction, although the possibility of more Imperial relics shouldn't be ruled out.
Verisof helped himself. "Interesting. There was a priest in the next cabin on his way here to take a special course in the preparation of radioactive synthetics – for the treatment of cancer, you know –"

"Surely, he didn't call it radioactive synthetics, now?"

"I guess not! It was the Holy Food to him."
Self-explanatory. An actual example of pseudo-religious BS about science.
"But it amounts to the same thing. He's foaming at the mouth with eagerness to attack the Foundation. He scarcely troubles to conceal it. And he's in a position to do it, too, from the standpoint of armament. The old king built up a magnificent navy, and Wienis hasn't been sleeping the last two years. In fact, the tax on Temple property was originally intended for further armament, and when that fell through he increased the income tax twice."
At this point, Anacreon's fleet is largely post-Imperial in composition, as Verisof states that the former king built it. Apparently, Wienis has enlarged it in a significative proportion in just two years, something that gives us a chance to calculate industrial output.

-Anacreontian militarization.

The battlecruiser Wienis had half the volume of the Anacreontian fleet. That fleet was more or less built from scratch in the roughly thirty years that followed the emancipation of Anacreon from the Empire. Note that this was not wartime production and that the Foundation hadn't yet completely rebuilt the Imperial energy production network.

The Wienis was two miles in length. Although we don't know anything about its volume (other than all descriptions of Imperial warships suggesting that they are massive and colossal), I have used the volume of eight Imperial Star Destroyers (ISD), which should be an adequate benchmark within an order of magnitude in either direction.

9E7 m^3 * 8 = 7.2E8 m^3

7.2E8 m^3 * 2 = 1.44E9 m^3 (estimated production over thirty years)

1.44E9 m^3 / 30 = 4.8E7 m^3 (estimated yearly production)

Now, Anacreon was just a small fraction of the Galactic Empire.

Following closely the boundaries of the old Prefect of Anacreon, it embraced twenty-five stellar systems, six of which included more than one inhabited world. The population of nineteen billion, though still far less than it had been in the Empire's heyday was rising rapidly with the increasing scientific development fostered by the Foundation.

Using the Anacreontian figures for the Empire in a per planet and per capita basis we get that:

Estimated Galactic Empire production (per planet): 4.8E7 m^3 * 800,000 (Anacreon is estimated to have ~30 planets) = 3.84E13 m^3 (~425,000 ISD sized warships a year).

Estimated Galactic Empire production (per capita): 4.8E7 m^3 * 5.25E7 (Galactic population/Anacreontian population) = 2.52E15 m^3 (~2,800,000 ISD sized warships a year).

"Two weeks ago an Anacreonian merchant ship came across a derelict battle cruiser of the old Imperial Navy. It must have been drifting in space for at least three centuries."

Interest flickered in Hardin's eyes. He sat up. "Yes, I've heard of that. The Board of Navigation has sent me a petition asking me to obtain the ship for purposes of study. It is in good condition, I understand."

"In entirely too good condition," responded Verisof, dryly. "When Wienis received your suggestion last week that he turn the ship over to the Foundation, he almost had convulsions."
After three hundred years floating in space, an Imperial ship is in relative good condition. Well enough to return to working order with adequate maintenance, at any rate.
"It's a ship! They could build in those days. Its cubic capacity is half again that of the entire Anacreonian navy. It's got nuclear blasts capable of blowing up a planet, and a shield that could take a Q-beam without working up radiation. Too much of a good thing, Hardin –"
This passage is very well known and has appared in countless Foundation-related debates. Ignoring firepower-related calculations, this very strongly suggests that the ship CAN destroy a world (using unknown mechanisms and within an unknown timefrime). And considering that Verisof is a qualified scientist, reporting to his Commander-in-Chief, wild exaggeration seems unlikely.
"No. But repairing the ship will take months and an attack after that is certain. Our yielding will be taken as a sign of appalling weakness and the addition of the Imperial Cruiser will just about double the strength of Wienis' navy. He'll attack as sure as I'm a high priest. Why take chances? Do one of two things. Either reveal the plan of campaign to the Council, or force the issue with Anacreon now!"
Oddly enough, although it is suggested that the Anacreonian fleet is twice as big as the cruiser, Verisof states that its firepower will be doubled (this means, btw, that he has in mind the cruiser's technical specifications). This suggests that the Foundation-built Anacreonian fleet has worse power generation technology than the Empire two centuries before.
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

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3.
In the ancient days when the Galactic Empire had embraced the Galaxy, and Anacreon had been the richest of the prefects of the Periphery, more than one emperor had visited the Viceregal Palace in state. And not one had left without at least one effort to pit his skill with air speedster and needle gun against the feathered flying fortress they call the Nyakbird.

The fame of Anacreon had withered to nothing with the decay of the times. The Viceregal Palace was a drafty mass of ruins except for the wing that Foundation workmen had restored. And no Emperor had been seen in Anacreon for two hundred years.
The time of Imperial domain are regarded here as the "ancient days"... although it has been less than a century since Seldon's death and Anacreon has been an independent kingdom for less than fifty years.

Moreover, the fact that the palace was allowed to decay in such a way suggests that the situation was extremely dire at some point (although it could have been destroyed during the revolt as a symbol of Imperial authority).

Finally, there are a couple of technical details in the passage. We are told about something called an air speedster, evidently an extremely nimble unipersonal aircraft, and a weapon known as the needle gun, that probably uses some form of kinetic projectile of unknown properties, although evidently powerful enough to kill a Nyakbird whatever that is.
Wienis said, by way of preamble, "I've been to the ship today."

"What ship?"

"There is only one ship. The ship. The one the Foundation is repairing for the navy. The old Imperial cruiser. Do I make myself sufficiently plain?"
At this point, the Foundation had in Anacreon's surface the facilities to make repairs in a multi-kilometer starship. Incidentally, this very strongly suggests that the Imperial cruiser can make planetary landings, something that should allow us to make tentative calculations about its low end for power generation.
"And after that we will ourselves be able to operate the power boxes of the temples and the ships that fly without men and the holy food that cures cancer and all the rest? Verisof said only those blessed with the Galactic Spirit could–"
Beyond anything else, this passage is interesting because it mentions "ships that fly without men", suggesting a high level of automation even at this time. Of course, it could be just usage of remote control to awe the gullible. Regarding the "holy food" we know exactly nothing about it and how it does cure cancer.
"Yes, Verisof said! Verisof, next to Salvor Hardin, is your greatest enemy. Stay with me, Lepold, and don't worry about them. Together we will recreate an empire-not just the kingdom of Anacreon-but one comprising every one of the billions of suns of the Empire. Is that better than a wordy 'Galactic Paradise'?"
"Billions of suns". This could be Wienis talking out of his ass, a reference of all the Galaxy being under nominal Imperial control or, perhaps, a rare statement supporting the number of worlds mentioned in Peeble in the Sky.

4.
For instance, two months ago some fool tampered with the power plant in the Thessalekian Temple – one of the large ones. He contaminated the city, of course. It was considered divine vengeance by everyone, including the priests.
No explanation of what kind of contamination is mentioned here. Note: In some of the older versions, it is stated that several city blocks were destroyed as a result of the accident.
There isn't a festival at which the king does not preside surrounded by a radioactive aura shining forth all over his body and raising itself like a coronet above his head. Anyone touching him is severely burned. He can move from place to place through the air at crucial moments, supposedly by inspiration of divine spirit. He fills the temple with a pearly, internal light at a gesture. There is no end to these quite simple tricks that we perform for his benefit; but even the priests believe them, while working them personally.
A trick of a fake "holy aura" that although does have clear defensive potential, isn't an actual shield. It is unclear if the alluded flight is done with the throne (as seen later) or if there are man-portable "levitators".
If the Emperor had had the nerve to try, he could have taken over again with two cruisers and with the help of the internal revolt that would have certainly sprung to life.
Regarding Anacreon's ability to defend itself after its revolt and Trantor's inability or unwillingness to conserve its Rim holdings at this point. It should be noted, however, that the person making this statement is done in a somewhat casual fashion and might not be entirely accurate.
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

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5.
Hardin leaned back into the cushioned seat and shivered slightly. It wasn't cold inside the well-heated car, but there was something frigid about a snow-covered world, even through glass, that annoyed him.

He said, reflectively, "Some day when we get around to it we ought to weather-condition Terminus. It could be done."
Using unknown mechanisms, planetary climates can be modified to match certain specifications. It is possible that this technology is similar to the devices used by the Empire to preserve a viable ecosphere in Trantor.
"I'm not finished. Seldon never said anything about returning, you understand, but that's of a piece with his whole plan. He's always done his best to keep all foreknowledge from us. Nor is there any way of telling whether the computer is set for further openings short of dismantling the Vault – and it's probably set to destroy itself if we were to try that. I've been there every anniversary since the first appearance, just on the chance. He's never shown up, but this is the first time since then that there's really been a crisis."
SE. Hardin explains the computer self-destructing as a likely scenario, suggesting that it may be a standard precaution for dealing with sensitive information.

6.
Following closely the boundaries of the old Prefect of Anacreon, it embraced twenty-five stellar systems, six of which included more than one inhabited world. The population of nineteen billion, though still far less than it had been in the Empire's heyday was rising rapidly with the increasing scientific development fostered by the Foundation.
Anacreon's population and holdings, that we can use to calculate the typical dimensions of a Prefect. If Anacreon is representative of the galaxy at large, we can guess a galactic population in the order of 20 quadrillions (roughly 2% of the figure mentioned by Seldon). Although the Fall must have resulted in a sharp rise of mortality, a true demographic disaster is only hinted a few times and it is entirely possible that Anacreon is not representative. In support of this, we know that the densely populated Core worlds didn't suffer badly in the first centuries of the Fall (at least, until the Empire finally collapsed).
And it was only now that Hardin found himself floored by the magnitude of that task. Even in thirty years, only the capital world had been powered. The outer provinces still possessed immense stretches where nuclear power had not yet been re-introduced. Even the progress that had been made might have been impossible had it not been for the still workable relics left over by the ebbing tide of Empire.
This is important, in as much as we can establish now that the industrial output calculations are a conservative low end, using figures derived from Anacreon when the kingdom has not fully regained a nuclear-based economy.

In a different note, this passage shows that the Foundation relied very heavily in leftover Imperial tech at this stage, suggesting that most things shown in these chapters would be possible for the Empire at its height.
He had been introduced to Lepold as one of a long line of introducees, and from a safe distance, for the king stood apart in lonely and impressive grandeur, surrounded by his deadly blaze of radioactive aura. And in less than an hour this same king would take his seat upon the massive throne of rhodium-iridium alloy with jewel-set gold chasings, and then, throne and all would rise maestically into the air, skim the ground slowly to hover before the great window from which the great crowds of common folk could see their king and shout themselves into near apoplexy. The throne would not have been so massive, of course, if it had not had a shielded nuclear motor built into it.
The "burning aura" is generated without wearing evident technology, but the flight of a heavy (several tons, probably) throne requires a nuclear motor. This motor, incidentally, is shielded, although it is unclear if its for protection against its own radiation, to avoid detection or to protect the king from attacks.
Hardin frowned. "When will all this happen?"

"If you're really interested, the ships of the fleet left Anacreon exactly fifty minutes ago, at eleven, and the first shot will be fired as soon as they sight Terminus, which should be at noon tomorrow. You may consider yourself a prisoner of war."
As mentioned previously, hyperspace jump mechanics demand that for an accurate jump one must travel far away from the stellar gravity well. Tentative acceleration (and power generation per unit of mass) figures might be calculated using this information.
Hardin looked up coolly. "Order them yourself, Wienis, and see who is playing with forces too great for whom. Right now, there's not a wheel turning in Anacreon. There's not a light burning, except in the temples. There's not a drop of water running, except in the temples. On the wintry half of the planet, there's not a calorie of heat, except in the temples. The hospitals are taking in no more patients. The power plants have shut down. All ships are grounded. If you don't like it, Wienis, you can order the priests back to their jobs. I don't wish to."
The Foundation-created priesthood shows its true power. As the priests are the only ones with the knowledge to operate the technology provided by the Foundation, Salvor Hardin found the way to freeze the Four Kingdoms at will.
"Very good, but how are you going to give the orders? Every line of communication on the planet is shut down. You'll find that neither wave nor hyperwave will work. In fact, the only communicator of the planet that will work – outside of the temples, of course – is the televisor right here in this room, and I've fitted it only for reception."
An interesting question. How did the temples deactivate all the communication systems they didn't control? This implies that either all the equipment includes remote control devices or that the temples are nodes/repeaters for the planetary communications... something that is unlikely, considering the range and accuracy of Imperial hyperwave comms.
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

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7.
Theo Aporat was one of the very highest ranking priests of Anacreon. From the standpoint of precedence alone, he deserved his appointment as head priest- attendant upon the flagship Wienis. But it was not only rank or precedence. He knew the ship. He had worked directly under the holy men from the Foundation itself in repairing the ship. He had gone over the motors under their orders. He had rewired the 'visors; revamped the communications system; replated the punctured hull; reinforced the beams. He had even been permitted to help while the wise men of the Foundation had installed a device so holy it had never been placed in any previous ship, but had been reserved only for this magnificent colossus of a vessel - a hyperwave relay.
The ultimate reason for the existence of this priesthood. At this point, Terminus is a world wealthy in knowledge and desperately short in resources and manpower. The priests are docile and relatively skilled workers. It is vaguely ironic to note that the priests are perhaps the most productive group in the feudal structure of the Four Kingdoms.
With quick practiced motions, he moved the little levers that opened all communications, so that every part of the two-mile-long ship was within reach of his voice and his image.
Length of an Imperial Battlecruiser and existence of internal communication systems in Imperial warships, controled from a single control center. It is possible that this system cannot be controlled from the bridge.
The sound of his voice reverberated, he knew, from the stem atom blast in the extreme rear to the navigation tables in the prow.
Some details about the internal configuration of this warship. The location of a heavy weapon in the "extreme rear" seems a bit odd.
And with his last word, at the stroke of midnight, a hand, light-years distant in the Argolid Temple, opened an ultrawave relay, which at the instantaneous speed of the ultrawave, opened another on the flagship Wienis. And the ship died!
Ulrawave is instantaneous, yet it is stated that the fleet is light-years away from the Argolid Temple, located in Anacreon. BTW, this invalidates one of my previous attempts to calculate acceleration and power generation, but it also makes us wonder WHERE the fleet is at this point. Terminus system? Possible, but never stated.
Aporat saw the darkness close down on the ship and heard the sudden ceasing of the soft, distant purring of the hyperatomic motors. He exulted and from the pocket of his long robe withdrew a self-powered nucleo-bulb that filled the room with pearly light.
You can switch off hyperatomic motors in a single moment with no trouble, suggesting that they are not powered by nuclear chain reactions (as it is my understanding that you need a while to actually stop a chain reaction, making the shutdown of a nuclear power plant a very complicated thing). If someone knows better than I do, please tell me.

8.
"The Anacreonian navy... aware of the nature of its mission... and refusing to be a party... to abominable sacrilage... is returning to Anacreon... with the following ultimatum issued... to those blaspheming sinners... who would dare to use profane force... against the Foundation... source of all blessings... and against the Galactic Spirit. Cease at once all war against... the true faith . . . and guarantee in a manner suiting us of the navy... as represented by our... priest-attendant, Theo Aporat... that such war will never in the future... be resumed, and that"- here a long pause, and then continuing -"and that the one-time prince regent, Wienis... be imprisoned... and tried before an ecclesiastical court... for his crimes. Otherwise the royal navy... upon returning to Anacreon... will blast the palace to the ground... and take whatever other measures... are necessary... to destroy the nest of sinners... and the den of destroyers... of men's souls that now prevail."
This paragraph suggests with its mention of the palace (instead of the city or the planet) that the Anacreontian fleet does have low yield weapons that could destroy a single building, without actually causing mass destruction.
Wienis shouted incoherently and staggered to the nearest soldier. Wildly, he wrested the nuclear blast from the man's hand-aimed it at Hardin, who didn't stir, shoved the lever and held it contacted.

The pale continous beam impinged upon the force-field that surrounded the mayor of Terminus and was sucked harmlessly to neutralization. Wienis pressed harder and laughed tearingly.

Hardin still smiled and his force-field aura scarcely brightened as it absorbed the energies of the nuclear blast. From his comer Lepold covered his eyes and moaned.
Hardin uses a personal shield to protect himself against the atom-blast used by the Anacreonian military. This technology is odd, as later stories state that the existence of personal forcefield tech shows massive technological superiority over the Empire, although it is almost incredible to believe that a single, lightly populated world can best in less than eighty years the efforts of a galactic society in ten thousand. Moreover, the Second Foundation Trilogy shows usage of primitive personal forceshields in Trantor, during Seldon's life.
And, with a yell of despair, Wienis changed his aim and shot again - and toppled to the floor with his head blown into nothingness.
Effects of "blasters". It is unclear whether the "blown" matter is turned into neutrinos or sent to another dimension (such as hyperspace), but the lack of collateral effects makes it essentially impossible for this to be DET.
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

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Murazor wrote:The Fall didn't cause the collapse of agrarian production (at least in the luckiest planets), although the distribution networks must have been hit hard. Apparently, the industry was badly affected too.
In another, unrelated note, it seems that the mintage of money in a given planet is the responsability of the local authorities (the Trantorian authorities probably set the official value of the "credit").
Not surprising, especially during a time when central government is in the process of collapse. Letting the provinces mint their own currency is a sign that your empire is evolving into a confederacy. Since Asimov explicitly modeled the fall of the Galactic Empire after the Fall of Rome as portrayed by Gibbon, no surprises there.
The main inmediate consequence of the Fall seems to be the complete loss of advanced forms of energy production. From Hardin's comments we can almost certainly rule out fission, although fusion is still a possibility. Also, Hardin seems to be certain that with a nuclear economy, Smyrno would have been able to defeat the larger and more populated kingdom of Anacreon.
Atomic power in the Foundation setting does what people in the 1940s expected it to be able to do. It's not just a mechanism for generating electricity. It's a convenient power supply for man-portable energy weapons and defenses against same (the "man-sized nuclear shield" described in Foundation and Empire). It powers machine tools that do strange and wonderful things (again, from Foundation and Empire, the independent trader has something that kills an Imperial soldier who uses it carelessly). And so on.

So having 'a nuclear economy' in the Foundation setting means a lot more than it does in real life today. It's more like the difference between, say, having electricity and not having electricity: a huge economic advantage if you know what to do with your own electrical grid.
Guardsman Bass wrote:Trantor's population estimate always bothered me. Forty billion people over 75 million square miles is only 533 people per square mile. That's not very dense, certainly not on the order of population density of planet that is completely urbanized (unless significant parts of Trantor aren't complete cityscape).
Gustav32Vasa wrote:Those 40 billion were those that lived on Trantor, billions other came to Trantor to get there education.
Trantor might be relatively small. Trantor's ecosystem might be pretty well crashed out, meaning that much of the volume of the 'megacities' is actually the facilities needed to process air, water, and food, to vent excess heat into space, and so on. Trantor might have relatively low land area, with much of the planet being covered by oceans.
"It's a ship! They could build in those days. Its cubic capacity is half again that of the entire Anacreonian navy. It's got nuclear blasts capable of blowing up a planet, and a shield that could take a Q-beam without working up radiation. Too much of a good thing, Hardin –"
This passage is very well known and has appared in countless Foundation-related debates. Ignoring firepower-related calculations, this very strongly suggests that the ship CAN destroy a world (using unknown mechanisms and within an unknown timefrime). And considering that Verisof is a qualified scientist, reporting to his Commander-in-Chief, wild exaggeration seems unlikely.
[Note: "half again" does not mean "half." It means the Imperial battlecruiser's volume is 1.5 times that of the combined volume of the Anacreonian Navy...
"No. But repairing the ship will take months and an attack after that is certain. Our yielding will be taken as a sign of appalling weakness and the addition of the Imperial Cruiser will just about double the strength of Wienis' navy. He'll attack as sure as I'm a high priest. Why take chances? Do one of two things. Either reveal the plan of campaign to the Council, or force the issue with Anacreon now!"
Oddly enough, although it is suggested that the Anacreonian fleet is twice as big as the cruiser, Verisof states that its firepower will be doubled (this means, btw, that he has in mind the cruiser's technical specifications). This suggests that the Foundation-built Anacreonian fleet has worse power generation technology than the Empire two centuries before.
The battlecruiser 'just about doubles' the naval strength involved here. That measure may not be strictly accurate. On the other hand, it's kind of immaterial to the Foundation's purposes whether a given Anacreonian ship can 'blow up' a planet, or merely bombard a few thousand square kilometers of it into crater fields. It doesn't make much difference either way when you're a small isolated cluster of settlements on an undeveloped world. You're dead either way.

(It sometimes annoys me when people fail to recognize this, talking about 'only' kiloton/second bombardment weapons as irrelevant somehow just because someone else in another setting dreamed bigger and deadlier)
Murazor wrote:Hardin uses a personal shield to protect himself against the atom-blast used by the Anacreonian military. This technology is odd, as later stories state that the existence of personal forcefield tech shows massive technological superiority over the Empire, although it is almost incredible to believe that a single, lightly populated world can best in less than eighty years the efforts of a galactic society in ten thousand. Moreover, the Second Foundation Trilogy shows usage of primitive personal forceshields in Trantor, during Seldon's life.
The Foundation concentrates technology and knowledge that are 'lost' or inadequately sustained in other parts of the Empire. During the fall of the Empire, we see lots of evidence of perfectly functional Imperial technology that's decaying for lack of maintenance. But the Foundation has enough engineers to maintain its own equipment and replicate it as long as the materials are available. So if the designs for a personal force-field ever existed, and can be made without unique, hugely expensive tooling, the Foundation can duplicate them. Most Imperial worlds won't be able to, and whatever models of personal shield that already existed will eventually fail when the batteries run out or a circuit blows or something.
Effects of "blasters". It is unclear whether the "blown" matter is turned into neutrinos or sent to another dimension (such as hyperspace), but the lack of collateral effects makes it essentially impossible for this to be DET.
Why not? "Blown into nothingness" could just as well mean "blown to bits as if shot with a large handgun." Asimov, as a writer, wasn't really into gory details.
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

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Posted: 2006 05 10, Wed 15
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 6#p2078046

Cut to
Posted: 2012 10 13, Sat 17
Six years and then some?
That's some serious time travel right there.
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

Post by Murazor »

Spoonist wrote:Six years and then some?
That's some serious time travel right there.
*le shrug*

Abandoned this.

Restarted it a while later in Spacebattles.

Abandoned that one.

Found the abandoned Spacebattles thread a few days ago.

Restarted it again, just finished doing the first book.

Decided that I may as well bump this one and complete the first book, at least. Thought no one would mind too much a bit of self-necro with content.
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Re: Quantification for the Foundation [Foundation quotes]

Post by Simon_Jester »

I honestly didn't notice- I saw the thread as being 'new,' assumed it had popped up in this forum where I don't check so often, and weighed in.

Oops.
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