B5: Kosh vs. Ironheart

[FaxModem1]

These two meet somewhere in the cosmos, and decide to duke it out till this other is dead, or vapourized, or weak, or something.

Who wins?

[Master of Ossus]

While we are not sure as to Ironheart's capabilities, I always got the feeling that the Vorlons were unconcerned about the Psicorp's experiments. It certainly never seemed to me that Ironheart was anywhere near as powerful as most of the FO's. Also remember that Kosh is no ordinary Vorlon. A mere fragment of him was capable of fighting the second Kosh to a stalemate at worst. I think that Kosh wins.

[SyntaxVorlon]

That fragment was supported by a fragment of Lorien, the first Kosh was a regular vorlon, but I personally don't think that Ironhart would be much of a match, as Vorlons can produce an energy spike that rivals that of an energy weapon.

[Stormbringer]

Ironheart. He had power beyond what any of the First Ones demonstrated. He tore someone apart molecule by molecule. The Vorlons never showed anything close to that for power.

[fgalkin]

Well, to make it simple.

Ironheart was a god.

Kosh pretended he was a god.

You decide.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

Need I remind Vorlon-worshippers that Kosh died in an epic battle with several Shadows in his quarters on B5 without causing any structural damage to the area? Sure, the interior of the room was turned into a warzone, but the walls were still there. How powerful could he be, if such mortal kombat between the almighty First Ones did not even breach the walls?

[Ender]

The claim is that he let himself be cut down so that the Shadows wouldn't destroy the station.

Flies in the face of the scene and what JMS says, but it both enhances Vorlon prowis and makes Kosh more noble, hence why it is used.

[Darth Wong]

Are there any Rabid Fiver arguments that don't rely on them holding back? If it isn't Shadows holding back on the Planet-killer, it's Vorlons holding back here, or Minbari turning off their imaginary "active defense grid" when the 2 MT nukes were detonated. How much of this "holding back" bullshit must we tolerate, especially when "holding back" seems to get them killed?

[Ender]

Are there any Rabid Fiver arguments that don't rely on them holding back? If it isn't Shadows holding back on the Planet-killer, it's Vorlons holding back here, or Minbari turning off their imaginary "active defense grid" when the 2 MT nukes were detonated. How much of this "holding back" bullshit must we tolerate, especially when "holding back" seems to get them killed?

You'd have to ask them. Frankly Phlannax, Brian, Sean, Conner and the crowd are the only good hard core B5 debators I've encountered.

[Ender]

Here's another great example:
http://pub9.ezboard.com/fbabylon5techma ... =149.topic

In reference to the Excalibur shooting at a shuttle and needing several hits to take it out
Obviously the Excalibur isn't using full power, or else that woulda been destroyed on the first impact.

[Darth Wong]

Here's another great example:
http://pub9.ezboard.com/fbabylon5techma ... =149.topic

In reference to the Excalibur shooting at a shuttle and needing several hits to take it out
Obviously the Excalibur isn't using full power, or else that woulda been destroyed on the first impact.

You know, that would be a valid excuse ... if it has demonstrated higher power elsewhere. But it hasn't, and we saw its weapon test on a 500 metre wide asteroid, which is impressive from a realistic standpoint but not if you're going to compare it to an ISD.

And they resort to the same pathetic "atmospheric shockwave with no persistent luminescent fireball, ejecta, or visible surface melting" argument that the Trekkies use for TDiC

[fgalkin]

Are there any Rabid Fiver arguments that don't rely on them holding back? If it isn't Shadows holding back on the Planet-killer, it's Vorlons holding back here, or Minbari turning off their imaginary "active defense grid" when the 2 MT nukes were detonated. How much of this "holding back" bullshit must we tolerate, especially when "holding back" seems to get them killed?

How would you feel if your favorite universe was stomped by everyone including the feds?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

Are there any Rabid Fiver arguments that don't rely on them holding back? If it isn't Shadows holding back on the Planet-killer, it's Vorlons holding back here, or Minbari turning off their imaginary "active defense grid" when the 2 MT nukes were detonated. How much of this "holding back" bullshit must we tolerate, especially when "holding back" seems to get them killed?

How would you feel if your favorite universe was stomped by everyone including the feds?

Sorry about your luck, but you can't change the series just to compete in "vs" matchups. Besides, I think the First Ones could take the Feds easily. It's just the younger races that would have trouble. It's not as if those 64 megaton torpedoes are canon, and the TM is considered "speculation". According to Pegasus, it would take the whole ship's payload to destroy a 5-6km wide asteroid, which would indicate that an Excalibur main-weapon blast is equivalent to two or three photon torpedoes.

Take that up to Shadow battlecrab or Vorlon dreadnaught firepower, and I'd say the First Ones take it against the Feds, without any of this "holding back" or imaginary jump-point superweapon bullshit.

[Connor MacLeod]

Here's another great example:
http://pub9.ezboard.com/fbabylon5techma ... =149.topic

In reference to the Excalibur shooting at a shuttle and needing several hits to take it out
Obviously the Excalibur isn't using full power, or else that woulda been destroyed on the first impact.

You know, that would be a valid excuse ... if it has demonstrated higher power elsewhere. But it hasn't, and we saw its weapon test on a 500 metre wide asteroid, which is impressive from a realistic standpoint but not if you're going to compare it to an ISD.

The asteroid is ony 500 meters if you accept the Tim Earls derived "475 meter" White star scaling. By Babtech scalings, its at most 250-300 meters wide.

[quiote]
And they resort to the same pathetic "atmospheric shockwave with no persistent luminescent fireball, ejecta, or visible surface melting" argument that the Trekkies use for TDiC [/quote]

Have you seen Racing the Night? I'm not questioning that (I think that myself) but I would be curious to see your analysis of the scenes involving the Main gun

[Stormbringer]

Are there any Rabid Fiver arguments that don't rely on them holding back? If it isn't Shadows holding back on the Planet-killer, it's Vorlons holding back here, or Minbari turning off their imaginary "active defense grid" when the 2 MT nukes were detonated. How much of this "holding back" bullshit must we tolerate, especially when "holding back" seems to get them killed?

This is one of the few legtimate cases of holding back. JMS (the creator and writer) has said that Kosh simply allowed himself to be killed because the Shadows demanded blood for what he did and that if it wasn't him it likely would have been Sheridan, Delenn and the others.

That doesn't mean that any of the other istances valid. They need to be analysed reasonably on a case by case basis. There is some wiggle room in a few of the cases (such as the Blackstar) but not for orders of magnitude.

[Connor MacLeod]

This is one of the few legtimate cases of holding back. JMS (the creator and writer) has said that Kosh simply allowed himself to be killed because the Shadows demanded blood for what he did and that if it wasn't him it likely would have been Sheridan, Delenn and the others.

And the third Technomage book supported that. But there are a number of other instances where we get benchmarks of a Vorlon's capabilities (according to those same books, Galen was considered comparable to a Vorlon in power) - and it still doesnt point out that alot of Fivers tend to equate teh Firstones with being almost godlike (witness the argument "it took all of B5's power to stop.)

That doesn't mean that any of the other istances valid. They need to be analysed reasonably on a case by case basis. There is some wiggle room in a few of the cases (such as the Blackstar) but not for orders of magnitude.

Tell that to Fivers. I've heard the following arguments about the Black Star alone:

- That "megatons" mean something else entirely in the B5 universe (Sound familiar?)

- That the observed output of the bombs was gigaton range (based on the energy required to accelerate the debris we saw, apparently.) This is also generally tied in with the notion that "dialogue is flawed and should be disregarded."

- That asteroid debris was accelerated by the asteroid and punctured the hull (one of the few rational alternatives, but it doesnt change things)

- The "Hand of Sheridan" effect - (what was supposed to be a joke has apparently become a legitimate debating excuse, even if it completely invalidates the notion of technical analysis for debating purposes) - I espeically like the pseudo-religious implications the title has.

- Londo is a drunken fool and can not be taken seriously. (again a variation of the "dialogue should be ignored" tactic soem Fivers seem to favor.)

- JMS is an idiot and fans know better, so we should disregard the scene

- it was a fluke (this is not totally without merit either, but I think that again, its seen more of as a convenient excuse to "ignore" the incident and never addresses the additional consequences tied to such a conclusion.) The "fluke" is usually tied up in a mix of Minbari ignorance and some sort of internal event that destroyed the ship. What sort of catastrophic failures would be required for this, I dont know.

And thats perhaps just scratching the surface in that regard. We have maybe a handful of halfway reasonable theories (which really are meant to be little more than excuses than any real explanation) to explain th incident, and many more that would do the most insane rabid trekkie proud.

[Ender]

Are there any Rabid Fiver arguments that don't rely on them holding back? If it isn't Shadows holding back on the Planet-killer, it's Vorlons holding back here, or Minbari turning off their imaginary "active defense grid" when the 2 MT nukes were detonated. How much of this "holding back" bullshit must we tolerate, especially when "holding back" seems to get them killed?

This is one of the few legtimate cases of holding back. JMS (the creator and writer) has said that Kosh simply allowed himself to be killed because the Shadows demanded blood for what he did and that if it wasn't him it likely would have been Sheridan, Delenn and the others.

That doesn't mean that any of the other istances valid. They need to be analysed reasonably on a case by case basis. There is some wiggle room in a few of the cases (such as the Blackstar) but not for orders of magnitude.

As I recall, JMS said he through down, but the book said something different. I'm just going on the discussion here, and never actually saw the quote mind you.

[Master of Ossus]

- Londo is a drunken fool and can not be taken seriously. (again a variation of the "dialogue should be ignored" tactic soem Fivers seem to favor.)

This one's my favorite, because Londo never said that the weapons were 2 MT devices. That was spoken by a bridge crew member of Sheridan's ship, while we were watching the events play out. What is particularly entertaining is that in order for Londo to be telling the rest of the story, he would have needed to see LOTS of things he never came close to seeing, and heard LOTS of things that he never came close to hearing, so we are forced to conclude that while he is telling the story to the children, the events that we are seeing took place as we see them on screen.

[Connor MacLeod]

- Londo is a drunken fool and can not be taken seriously. (again a variation of the "dialogue should be ignored" tactic soem Fivers seem to favor.)

This one's my favorite, because Londo never said that the weapons were 2 MT devices. That was spoken by a bridge crew member of Sheridan's ship, while we were watching the events play out. What is particularly entertaining is that in order for Londo to be telling the rest of the story, he would have needed to see LOTS of things he never came close to seeing, and heard LOTS of things that he never came close to hearing, so we are forced to conclude that while he is telling the story to the children, the events that we are seeing took place as we see them on screen.

I had that debate with outofstep long ago.

[Stormbringer]

This is one of the few legtimate cases of holding back. JMS (the creator and writer) has said that Kosh simply allowed himself to be killed because the Shadows demanded blood for what he did and that if it wasn't him it likely would have been Sheridan, Delenn and the others.

That doesn't mean that any of the other istances valid. They need to be analysed reasonably on a case by case basis. There is some wiggle room in a few of the cases (such as the Blackstar) but not for orders of magnitude.

As I recall, JMS said he through down, but the book said something different. I'm just going on the discussion here, and never actually saw the quote mind you.

Kosh let himself be killed. I think he put up, at most, a token fight to allow him to finish his conversation with Sheridan. Kosh knew he was going to die and so he let it happen. That's the canon fact of the matter not merely some fan speculation.

[Stormbringer]

- it was a fluke (this is not totally without merit either, but I think that again, its seen more of as a convenient excuse to "ignore" the incident and never addresses the additional consequences tied to such a conclusion.) The "fluke" is usually tied up in a mix of Minbari ignorance and some sort of internal event that destroyed the ship. What sort of catastrophic failures would be required for this, I dont know.

That one actually isn't too far from the in-universe truth. No other war cruiser went down as easily as that. As has been pointed out, if all it took was getting two 2 megaton nukes in range it could have been done again.

That doesn't mean that a Sharlin can survive orders of magnitude more firepower. It's one thing to claim that it can take more damage than that on average and another entirely to extropolate it to infinity.

[Darth Wong]

This is one of the few legtimate cases of holding back. JMS (the creator and writer) has said that Kosh simply allowed himself to be killed because the Shadows demanded blood for what he did and that if it wasn't him it likely would have been Sheridan, Delenn and the others.

Still doesn't explain the lack of damage, I'm afraid. He may have held back, but the Shadows didn't. If some kind of monster-power were required to kill a Vorlon, those walls would be shot full of holes at the very least.

Let's put it this way: if you needed a 2000 lb bomb to kill a Vorlon, would the walls survive? Even if you needed just a 10 lb bomb to kill a Vorlon, would the walls survive?

[Enlightenment]

Let's put it this way: if you needed a 2000 lb bomb to kill a Vorlon, would the walls survive? Even if you needed just a 10 lb bomb to kill a Vorlon, would the walls survive?

If X joules of energy were meeded to kill a Vorlon, if anyone had a choice, why would they want to waste any energy damaging the walls as opposed to delivering it directly into the Vorlon? Granted there will be a few problems with thermodynamics for absurd values of X (e.g. where does all the heat go if it isn't melting the floor/walls/etc), but there would be nothing for the Shadows to gain by wantonly spraying energy around as opposed to hitting Kosh directly.

Naturally I'm assuming that the Shadows have weapons systems sufficient to the task of never missing in melee combat. There isn't enough data to prove this assumption one way or another but in principle the concept of %99.999999999 accuracy and energy transfer casts some doubt on the usefulness of Kosh's assassination in determining a lower limit on Vorlon endurance.

[Darth Wong]

If X joules of energy were meeded to kill a Vorlon, if anyone had a choice, why would they want to waste any energy damaging the walls as opposed to delivering it directly into the Vorlon?

You're missing the point; there are limits to the kind of energy you can dump into a room without side-effects. Atmosphere has a nasty habit of converting all kinds of energy discharges into explosive shockwaves. And if we surmise that all of this energy went directly into Kosh's body with perfect efficiency (a silly idea in and of itself), it should all have been released when he died (Conservation of Energy and all of that).

And who said Kosh wouldn't even try to prolong his life by a few seconds, by trying to avoid these blasts? He was trying to talk to Sheridan at the time, after all.

Granted there will be a few problems with thermodynamics for absurd values of X (e.g. where does all the heat go if it isn't melting the floor/walls/etc), but there would be nothing for the Shadows to gain by wantonly spraying energy around as opposed to hitting Kosh directly.

They don't have to be. The fact that Morden was able to stand right there without injury and view the attack with the naked eye puts some pretty strict limits on its energy level. The air couldn't even have been heated up by any great amount, and the flashes couldn't have been bright enough to blind a human.

Naturally I'm assuming that the Shadows have weapons systems sufficient to the task of never missing in melee combat. There isn't enough data to prove this assumption one way or another but in principle the concept of %99.999999999 accuracy and energy transfer casts some doubt on the usefulness of Kosh's assassination in determining a lower limit on Vorlon endurance.

Perfect accuracy, maybe. Perfect energy transfer, on the other hand, is just silly. And what happens to this energy? Disappears into a black hole in Kosh's body, never to reappear again? Conservation of Energy goes out the window?

[Stormbringer]

This is one of the few legtimate cases of holding back. JMS (the creator and writer) has said that Kosh simply allowed himself to be killed because the Shadows demanded blood for what he did and that if it wasn't him it likely would have been Sheridan, Delenn and the others.

Still doesn't explain the lack of damage, I'm afraid. He may have held back, but the Shadows didn't. If some kind of monster-power were required to kill a Vorlon, those walls would be shot full of holes at the very least.

You're misunderstanding this Mike. Kosh could have put up a fight and said destruction and more would have resulted. Instead he didn't defend himself at all, only enough to allow him to sneak into Sheridan's mind. He was essentially defenseless so there was no need for that kind of destruction.