Sauron's Motivation

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2002-12-29 05:08pm

I like the Lord of the Rings, with a few caveats. Here's my biggest one:

Sauron is a completely one-dimensional character. What the hell is his motivation? He's gloom and doom for the sake of being gloom and doom. All he wants is "power," but to do what? What does Sauron do in his free time?
Seriously, this bothers me about LOTR. All the heroes are well fleshed-out characters, every one of them with strengths and weaknesses of character. But Sauron is just bad for the sake of being bad.
He's like one of those "Goth" kids, with the long hair, sunglasses, and black trenchcoats. He's putting on an act because he knows people don't like it, and that's quite immature and very uninteresting to read about.

Similarly, the Orcs aren't explained well enough. We all know that a billion-jillion years ago, so-and-so created them by corrupting elves yadda yadda yadda. But where do they live? Why do they fight for Sauron? Are there female Orcs? Are there baby Orcs? Are there any intelligent Orcs?

Well, there you have it. If any of you Tolkienphiles can shed some light onto those problems, please do.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2002-12-29 05:13pm

He doesn't want to be bad for the sake of being bad, he wants to have power for the sake of having power

A pretty common motivation even today.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-12-29 05:27pm

The Orcs fight for Sauron bevcause they're easily corrupted. The only others Sauron corrupted were the Nazguhl and weak Men.

corporial · Post by **corporial** » 2002-12-29 05:30pm

Gandalf said that Sauron was a servant (or slave can't remember which) of higher powers in the 3rd book. I think he was simply a middle man and he probably got all of his strength from those higher powers Gandalf spoke of.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-12-29 05:37pm

Sauron started out as the Armourer of Melkor in the Silmirillion, he at one point doinked Shelob (I'm hoping this was before she became a gaint spider)

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-12-29 05:39pm

Sauron was the first captain of Morgoth. Now, Morgoth was a very meany character, being a God gone bad and all. The problem is that, by LOTR era, Sauron is completely corrupted, much like the Nazgul. In his youth his character was complex, as described in the legends of old (apendix, Sallmarion, Unfinished tales, for example). He his now only a shadow of his former glory, really. Uncapable of anything but hungering for more power.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-29 05:57pm

Robert Treder wrote:Are there female Orcs? Are there baby Orcs?

Probably lots just not living in the mines and factories, and they probably have beards and lizard like skin.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-12-29 06:28pm

Sauron wants power pplain and simple. He was corruptes by the big bad Dark Lord Senior, Morogoth. He is pretty one dimensional because he doesn't have much more to him. In the Elder Days there was more to him and he even had a change of heart after the War of Wrath but he's more or less pure evil.

Orcs fight for Sauron as the did for Morogoth because they're scared shitless and driven in part by the will of the Dark Lord. What the One does is enslave them even further (ala the Nazgul). Goblins are free orcs and are much diminished relative to the Orcish breed proper. The Orc are dependant to a fair degree on the power of the current Dark Lord.

There are orc woman and children. They're referenced in a few passing instances. Orcish men out number females by a major degree (probably Morogoth messing with the orginal elvish-orcs), ten to one at least. They don't seem to be any different than make orcs except weaker. I'd imagine (and orchish birthrates back this up) that the females are kept more or less constantly pregnant.

Orchish children would probably (those that survive) grow to maturity relatively quickly. Saruman whipped up his orc-hybrid army fairly quickly (if not as fast as shown in the movie) and that's with them being half human. Orc children probably grow to maturity relatively quickly because they are a drain and can't be used as slaves.

In short, the are orcish women and children but we haven't really be in a position to get much information about them. None of the scenes (except possibly the goblin city in the hobbit) would show them.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-12-29 06:36pm

The same can be said about the other races, btw. The books were never into family issues. We know very little about dwarves children and females (besides them being similar to the males and there being 3 times more males than females, or about elves growing/reproducing rate. Even about men, we must guess from our own experience. The only race where this things are analysed in depth is the.. hobbits.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2002-12-29 07:54pm

According to one of the Tolkein letters (which one escapes me right now, I'll find it later), Sauron above all else desires order. In his mind he has a set order for almost everything, including how others live their own lives. This, Tolkein said, came from his association as a Maia (angel) of Aule, who was, basically, the God of Skill. No matter how twisted Morgoth sought to make him, Sauron could never abandon his wish to make everything efficient, effective, and according to his order of things, flawless. One example of this desire for order is how he "domesticated" the Orcs, requring them to learn multiple languages, learn military discipline, and segregating them into different squads and batallions.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-12-29 08:46pm

Robert Treder wrote:I like the Lord of the Rings, with a few caveats. Here's my biggest one:

Sauron is a completely one-dimensional character. What the hell is his motivation? He's gloom and doom for the sake of being gloom and doom. All he wants is "power," but to do what? What does Sauron do in his free time?
Seriously, this bothers me about LOTR. All the heroes are well fleshed-out characters, every one of them with strengths and weaknesses of character. But Sauron is just bad for the sake of being bad.
He's like one of those "Goth" kids, with the long hair, sunglasses, and black trenchcoats. He's putting on an act because he knows people don't like it, and that's quite immature and very uninteresting to read about.

Similarly, the Orcs aren't explained well enough. We all know that a billion-jillion years ago, so-and-so created them by corrupting elves yadda yadda yadda. But where do they live? Why do they fight for Sauron? Are there female Orcs? Are there baby Orcs? Are there any intelligent Orcs?

Well, there you have it. If any of you Tolkienphiles can shed some light onto those problems, please do.

what more motivation do you need? all my stories are about that, and irl, I plan to do similar.

power is all the motivation one needs. . . -slow smile-

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-12-29 08:48pm

NeoGoomba wrote:According to one of the Tolkein letters (which one escapes me right now, I'll find it later), Sauron above all else desires order. In his mind he has a set order for almost everything, including how others live their own lives. This, Tolkein said, came from his association as a Maia (angel) of Aule, who was, basically, the God of Skill. No matter how twisted Morgoth sought to make him, Sauron could never abandon his wish to make everything efficient, effective, and according to his order of things, flawless. One example of this desire for order is how he "domesticated" the Orcs, requring them to learn multiple languages, learn military discipline, and segregating them into different squads and batallions.

I like that idea.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2002-12-29 10:21pm

I also like that theory... Sauron wanted order, order as he saw order would be, with him controlling all aspects of Middle Earth life fully.

But I was always content with accepting that Sauron was just a fully-corrupted evil fucker from hanging out with Morogoth.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-29 10:28pm

Sauron is 1-D by the time of his finnal defeat in LOTR. However that was what was needed, and he works very well for his role. As others have pointed out earlier on there is more too him, but the books and letters which contain that information are far less prevalent then the trilogy

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2002-12-29 10:51pm

Yes, Sauron character is not developed in the book. It is because the book is about the hobits, ,Aragorn, Legolas, Glimli, Gandalf. He does nothing in the book besides just being. There is never a confrotation with him, he does not chat, anything ?
Why ? Because he is developed and explained in almost all other works of Tolkien. Go there and look, there is his story, his corruption, his desiries, his ways.

Necro99 · Post by **Necro99** » 2002-12-29 10:56pm

I know that in TTT in one part when the orcs prepared for the war, we see somethng like a small orc bust out of a rubbery cocoon in a cave, with other orcs. So i suppose they are born in eggs or something. Like frogs, a female makes eggs and the males impregnate them.

Alto i could be wrong, but it is a pretty realistic theory.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-30 05:34am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Sauron started out as the Armourer of Melkor in the Silmirillion, he at one point doinked Shelob (I'm hoping this was before she became a gaint spider)

Where is that?

The Prime Necromancer · Post by **The Prime Necromancer** » 2002-12-30 11:33am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:
Sauron started out as the Armourer of Melkor in the Silmirillion, he at one point doinked Shelob (I'm hoping this was before she became a gaint spider)

Where is that?

I'd like to hear where that is too. I don't recall Tolkien ever mentioning Dark Lord on Spider action in any of the books I've ever read.

Still, it might explain their later antagonism. Maybe he was always late with his alimony payments, so she kept eating orcs for revenge.

Also, in the parody "Bored of the Rings", "Shlob" is supposed to be "Sorehead's" ex.

Bartman · Post by **Bartman** » 2002-12-30 04:54pm

Here are the only two Tolkien quotes I am aware of that provide Sauron's motivation. Make of them what you will:

"Sauron was of course not 'evil' in origin. He was a 'spirit' corrupted by the Prime Dark Lord (the Prime sub-creative Rebel) Morgoth. He was given an opportunity of repentance, when Morgoth was overcome, but could not face the humiliation of recantation, and suing for pardon; and so his temporary turn to good and 'benevolence' ended in a greater relapse, until he became the main representative of Evil of later ages."
Letter #153

"In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit."
Letter #183

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2002-12-31 10:28am

Bartman wrote:Here are the only two Tolkien quotes I am aware of that provide Sauron's motivation. Make of them what you will:

"Sauron was of course not 'evil' in origin. He was a 'spirit' corrupted by the Prime Dark Lord (the Prime sub-creative Rebel) Morgoth. He was given an opportunity of repentance, when Morgoth was overcome, but could not face the humiliation of recantation, and suing for pardon; and so his temporary turn to good and 'benevolence' ended in a greater relapse, until he became the main representative of Evil of later ages."
Letter #153

"In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit."
Letter #183

Very interesting. Oh, BTW,

POKE!

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2002-12-31 02:16pm

Bartman wrote: "In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit."
Letter #183

THAT was the letter I was thinking of.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-12-31 02:21pm

Necro99 wrote:I know that in TTT in one part when the orcs prepared for the war, we see somethng like a small orc bust out of a rubbery cocoon in a cave, with other orcs. So i suppose they are born in eggs or something. Like frogs, a female makes eggs and the males impregnate them.

Alto i could be wrong, but it is a pretty realistic theory.

That's a purely movie invention with no basis in the books. Peter Jackson took some very serious liberties with regards to orc origins and reproduction.

In short Orcs reproduce like we do, orc-guy knocks up orc-gal and eventually orc-kid pops out between her legs. They're twisted elves, not forgmen. They probably wanted a more sterile and less human method to make orcs more monsters and less recognizably human.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 03:34pm

The desire for "order" seems to be a common bad-guy motivation, but it's a bit facile. Vader says "We can bring ORDER to the galaxy as father and son!" in TESB, but in the prequels, we learn that the Republic was corrupt and deeply dysfunctional, and that much suffering was the result.

I believe that most bad guys think their enemies are the ones who are evil. For example, Hitler claimed to be fighting against the Jewish menace, which he demonized in his own mind (as you can see in "Mein Kampf"). Osama Bin Laden believes he is fighting against the evil of secular America. A more realistic motivation for Sauron would have been for him to think the elves and humans are evil, and perhaps provide some justification for that belief (it's not as if it wouldn't have been possible).

But realistic motivations do not necessarily make for good opera.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-31 03:45pm

As far as I know (and I know a lot), The Yosemite Bear is speaking absolute gibberish.

Shelob was ALWAYS a giant monster spider, as she was the final offspring of Ungoliant, the monsterous spider that assisted Morgoth in the Burning of the Two Trees and the Rape (read: theft) of the Silmarils in the First Age (before the Time of the Sun and the Moon, I think).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-31 03:50pm

Morgoth and other big spider (can't recall her name)
Sauron and Shelob

"Is there something sickening in middle earth. Dark Lord Spider Sex expose..."

*shudder*

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