Monomolecular blades

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-12-30 04:17pm

I'm writing something and had a question about an idea I wanted to introduce in my story. (No, its not Star Crossed) and was wondering if any of you more scientifically minded folks may have an answer or suggestion for me. If you have a monomolecular blade, which as I understand it means that the cutting edge is the finest that can be made thus making a sword with a monomolecular edge would be quite devatating, what happens if two men were to duel with mono blades? Would there be any sort of special effects I should be aware of or would the swords simply act as any other sword when they clashed???

Thanks in advance for any help on this matter.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-12-30 04:20pm

They'd probably slice through each other.

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> .
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and vice versa. There may be a few freaky effects but it is unlikely, They might be replled dempending on any charge in the blades.

P.s. We want more starcrossed

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2002-12-30 04:20pm

WTF? Understand that this is a monomolecular blade. That means that the blade itself is only one molecule thick! Have you ever thought about how far it would bend??

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-30 04:24pm

The cutting edge has been sharpened to one molecule, but I assume that the blade is thicker. The two weapons would have to be made of an enormously strong material, and would likely lose effectiveness as the duel went on, requiring sharpening later.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-30 04:31pm

It would visually look exactly the same as any other knife fight. The monomolecular edge will be ultra-sharp but it will have no strength because there is almost no load-bearing area. It will blunt immediately, although it won't be visible.

There really isn't much point to such a super-sharp edge unless you want to be able to effortlessly cut things which are very soft.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2002-12-30 04:34pm

In all likelihood, these things will deeply notch each other in any kind of direct block. Unless you're also postulating extraordinarily durable materials (after all, you can get a monomolecular edge from flint if you chip it just right), they will tend to lose that edge very quickly; driven hard enough, they'll chop into or through pipes, walls, and other materials that happen to be in the way on a missed swing, but every contact with solid material will blunt that edge.

Needless to say, such weapons will be pretty pretty good at removing limbs if they strike flesh.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-12-30 05:05pm

Ok, so from what I can gather here, the monomolecular blade idea may not be as good as I thought in regards to dueling. I was just thinking what kind of edged weapons would be used in a futuristic society that is still firmly rooted in a Medieval mindset. Maybe just using regular swords that are extremely sharp made out of some uber metal might be better than using the monomolecular edge idea. Hmmmm...I'll have to give this some thought.

BTW Thanks so much for the quick responses so far.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-30 05:20pm

No problem.

PS. Vibro-blades are always cool. In a clash between blades, the important characteristics are hardness (which maintains the edge of the blade) and toughness (which keeps the blade from breaking).

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-12-30 05:21pm

If it is possible, encase the blade in a stais field.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-30 05:30pm

How is a stasis field going to eliminate Newton's Third Law? Delay its effects until it's shut off?

Come to think of it, that would be hilarious. Turn off the stasis field and the blade abruptly shatters

But then, it would effectively be a forcefield sword, which calls into question the need for any metallic blade at all.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-30 05:39pm

I believe the latter is what is being postulated. Something like Niven variable-swords, in which the wire blade is necessary to the making of the stasis field.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-30 05:40pm

The Yuuzhan Vong amphistaff's have an atomic diameter, this is because they project an actual force-field some distance away, and this force-field is the edge itself.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-30 06:47pm

In Larry Niven's Known Space and related stories, they use a "wire" which is one molecule thick. To keep it rigid, a forcefield of some sort is projected around it (apparently forcefields in this case must act on the wire itself and cant exist independently). At the end of the "blade" is a little light which is there to tell you where the blade ends (because its invisible).

These blades can cut through most anything and, I believe, can be withdrawn into the handed like a lightsaber.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-30 06:51pm

Incidentally, there is a use for uni-molecular points and edges, but it has nothing to do with combat. Certain scientists use such fine instruments to take samples from tiny areas, so as to help ensure accuracy. For instance, researchers examining the alleged "Vinland Map" for Yale University used such instruments to ensure that they sampled only a tiny fraction of the lines that they were examining.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-30 07:33pm

kojikun wrote:In Larry Niven's Known Space and related stories, they use a "wire" which is one molecule thick. To keep it rigid, a forcefield of some sort is projected around it (apparently forcefields in this case must act on the wire itself and cant exist independently). At the end of the "blade" is a little light which is there to tell you where the blade ends (because its invisible).

These blades can cut through most anything and, I believe, can be withdrawn into the handed like a lightsaber.

How is this supposed to maintain rigidity along its length, with a miniscule moment of area in bending? It's a lightsabre with more technobabble.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-30 07:39pm

dont ask me. it uses some magic forcefield, remember? :p

The only real technobabble is the forcefield.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-12-30 07:51pm

kojikun wrote:dont ask me. it uses some magic forcefield, remember? :p

The only real technobabble is the forcefield.

40k monomol blades like a standard issue guard knife have tiny generators built in, they flick em on and off..

I would guess its cheaper for them to make a weapon like that as opposed to an energy blade.

Eldar monomol weapons are made from eldar uber material (standard eldar technology cop-out) so thats how they work

They can parry and knife-fight with them, although they dont have swords as such, just knifes.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-12-30 07:53pm

Oh just though, and Imperium powerswords and monomol weapons have blades cause if the damn thing stops working you can still do something with it

Moonstone Spider · Post by **Moonstone Spider** » 2002-12-30 08:08pm

Don't knock KS, it's got an astoundingly small amount of Technobabble and what they have is used logically. Niven was a very accurate fellow.

The slaver Stasis field was designed as a defensive system, it effectively stops time for an area inside a conductor which the field covers. This field can be turned off but I'm not quite sure how, nothing can affect the inside of the field as inside, time is stopped. A Slaver Stasis Field is quite capable of surviving the next Big-Bang undamaged. They are standard on Pupeteer ships. The outside of the field is a mirror with an albedo of 1.

The Variable Sword used most often by Kzin, such as Speaker-for-Animals, uses a Stasis field applied to a 1 molecule thick wire. It cannot bend because there is no time for it to bend in. The blade can cut through most physical substances, but does jack vs. a Pupeteer General Products hull (Then again hitting a Neutron star at .8 C doesn't hurt a GP hull so go figure). The sword can be anywhere from an inch to 10 feet long and has an LED to help the user know where the end of the blade is. This light is also a weakness as an absurdly skilled fighter can grab it safely. However given a 10 foot blade with almost no air-resistance being swung by an Enraged Kzin, the odds of this happening are slim.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2002-12-30 08:15pm

damit, someone beat me to an explanation of the variable-sword. As for WH40K sm blades, the basic guardsman's blade is NOT powered, just very sharp. I don't know if they're single-molecule edges or not, the only specific reference I can remember is in "Space Marine" by Ian Watson, where the Scouts have 'em. Power weapons are rare and expensive; only Space Marines, Guard officers (they're a symbol of rank as much as a weapon) and other high ranking officials and so on regularly use them.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2002-12-30 08:21pm

andrewgpaul wrote:damit, someone beat me to an explanation of the variable-sword. As for WH40K sm blades, the basic guardsman's blade is NOT powered, just very sharp. I don't know if they're single-molecule edges or not, the only specific reference I can remember is in "Space Marine" by Ian Watson, where the Scouts have 'em. Power weapons are rare and expensive; only Space Marines, Guard officers (they're a symbol of rank as much as a weapon) and other high ranking officials and so on regularly use them.

I don't know enough to say anything about that but...

HADOKEN!

*poke*

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-30 08:28pm

Just out of curiosity, how the hell can they have a monomolecular wire, and if they are saying that it a piece of metal that is all one molecule, then why can't ANY metal weapon be described as "monomolecular?"

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-12-30 08:33pm

s for WH40K sm blades, the basic guardsman's blade is NOT powered, just very sharp

excuse me ?

I have seen the damn writing..

" he flicked the mono-edge filament on"

however, there are plenty of examples were mono-edge is described and no ref to them being powered..i.e. souldrinkers, Lastchancers etc etc.

so...*shrug*

Power weapons are rare and expensive; only Space Marines, Guard officers (they're a symbol of rank as much as a weapon) and other high ranking officials and so on regularly use them.

aaaannnd ?

We arent discussing 40k....we are discussing mono-edge weapons

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2002-12-30 08:34pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Just out of curiosity, how the hell can they have a monomolecular wire, and if they are saying that it a piece of metal that is all one molecule, then why can't ANY metal weapon be described as "monomolecular?"

You're asking too much, MOS..

This is in the same league as the nanowire that cut's through anything...

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2002-12-31 10:33am

Stravo wrote:Ok, so from what I can gather here, the monomolecular blade idea may not be as good as I thought in regards to dueling. I was just thinking what kind of edged weapons would be used in a futuristic society that is still firmly rooted in a Medieval mindset. Maybe just using regular swords that are extremely sharp made out of some uber metal might be better than using the monomolecular edge idea. Hmmmm...I'll have to give this some thought.

Don't worry about making the blade as sharp as you can make it; worry about making it sharp enough. You'll also want to consider how superior materials might affect their performance. For instance, you could have dueling blades that are stronger, lighter, and hold a better edge. You could also have a "cattle prod" effect, allowing the blades to deliver an electric shock or other harmful energy on contact.

Consider, also, how superior materials available for armor might affect such duels. Your society may require formal duels to be conducted without any armor, but people will look for every advantage in unplanned encounters. Keep in mind that pressure is more important than force when you want to penetrate a material.

You should probably read over Mike's essays on momentum in the Science section of the main site.

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