Prefall Systems Commonwealth versus the Borg

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-30 04:43pm

Prefall Systems Commonwealth with all the stuff they had during the Magog invasion, only instead of the Magog they're up against the Borg.

To provide a bit of information:

Commonwealth ships are powered by antimatter, in this case antiprotons or AP. They also have AP guns which fire a stream of antiprotons.

They don't have FTL communications, in the sense that no signal travels FTl, but they do have courier ability (duh) which means that the transmission of information is at the same speed as their ships. (see below)

Their fastest STL speed for warships is 0.5c, for fighters its 0.75c, and for offensive missiles its 0.95c. Their FTL drives (slipstream) can typically make a trip from the Milky Way to Andromeda in an hour (which is an exxageration given the show). This speed is about 25 billion c.

Their ships are constantly being upkept by nanites and androids. Nanites also combat offensively used nanites in the ships as well as in the crews themselves.

Andromedaverse ships do not have shields, but their ships do engage in combat at distances of Light Seconds using missiles. Heavy Cruisers have 40 missile tubes, 12 50Mw point defense lasers, and 12 AP cannons.

The High Guard, which is the main space military and doesnt including Home Guard local fleets, has over 360,000 ships, 150,000 if which are combat vessels, the other 210,000 are logistic vessels.

The HG fleet is made up of Heavy Cruiser Battle Groups, each of which contains one Heavy Cruiser (eg Andromeda Ascendant), four Deep Standoff Attack ships, sixteen Group Defense Frigates, nine Long Range Surveillance ships, and four Supply and Maintenance ships for a total of 34 ships per HCBG.

The fleet also has Planetfall Readiness Groups made up of one Atmospheric Attack Craft Carrier, nine Drop Ship Carriers, four Group Defense Frigates, three Long Range Surveillance ships, and two Support and Maintenance ships. Total ships in a PRG is 19.

For more indepth info go to Allsystems.org.

Quick note: The High Guard supposedly patrols the "local galactic group" which, if that means the Local Group, contains the three major galaxies mentioned in the show (Milky Way, Andromeda, Tiangulum) and the rest of the smaller galaxies (a list can be found here: http://www.seds.org/messier/more/local.html)

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Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-30 04:49pm

Systems Commonwealth would slay the Borg. Of course so would a Kirov BCGN thrown into orbit.

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2002-12-30 06:58pm

the borg could not win even if their weapons were superior which they may or may not be (ive never seen weapons calcs for a highguard ship) their "tactics" are incredibly lame and worthless the commonwealth would have the edge in inginuity and skill

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-30 07:09pm

I presume the same goes for the SC versus the entire ST milky way?

Renewed_Valour1 · Post by **Renewed_Valour1** » 2002-12-30 10:48pm

I believe one of the writers (Zack Stenz maybe) once so eloquently said that the first time the Borg tangled with a High Guard AI they would find themselves reduced to shoe polishers for the crew…

The Borg are outgunned, outnumbered, outranged, and facing an enemy that moves faster at STL and FTL speeds. On top of that the Borg are about as intelligent tactically as a Commonwealth attack nanobot. I doubt considering the nature of the Borg that the High Guard wouldn't even blink before nova bombing every single Borg system. On top of that drones would be slaughtered whenever they attempted to engage Commonwealth personnel; the F-lance and nearly every other weapon are all slug throwers. On top of that every single Commonwealth citizen has defensive nanobots in their bloodstream that hunt and kill invading pathogens or nanobots.

Darksider wrote: (ive never seen weapons calcs for a highguard ship)

6.4 GT/sec for a GHC if you assume they are using OM-5s (the smallest missiles). Their high end firepower is harder to calculate.

kojikun wrote:I presume the same goes for the SC versus the entire ST milky way?

Well if you toss in all the various omnipotents then they could do it. Some special one time races like the Voth might be a pain to the Commonwealth depending on what their real size and capabilities are. Species 8472 has a hopeless weakness to nanotech; which the Commonwealth uses in about everything.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2002-12-31 06:55am

True, S8472 is vulnerable to nanotech if you use the proper nanites. It would probably take some time, but ultimately the SC would own them.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-12-31 08:52am

Heres the basic thing about Gene's Second creation

Starfleet Ships are basicly half a strong physicly as Highguard, But make up 20% or so of that in shielding

A Highguard's Anti-Cap ship missles are supposdly 100 Megatons accoding to R-Valor and so far I've never heard an aurgment aginst it so lets use it

Alright 100 Megaton missles, takes ooh around 20 for a borg cube to go down(2.2 Gigatons should put down a cube for awhile though not kill it, more than enough time to mop it up though because of factor two)
Factor two of course is the fact that Highguard Ships have an insanly large(Near Anime sized :p) Missle Firing Rate as to smack the avarage ST ship silly then do it 72 more times

See the Andromida itself, not the most powerful ship in the fleet, has a 320 Missles per second firing rate

320x100= 32,000 or Basicly 32 Gigatons a second

Considering the avarage ST ship needs somewhere between 5-30 missles to kill it thats saying somthing, Considering the Demosrated Speed(.9C) and Manvurablity of Said Missles(tens of thousands of Gees) I can't think of anything in the ST universe that has even a remote chance of dodging

So figure a round number of ten missles and a single AD ship can take down 32 ST ships per second

Structly they SHOULD go down to say around 6 Quantum torps or maybe 2 if they hit a lucky place

But thier Speed and manvuability make up for that as they can and do fly circules around anything the ST universe has to offer
Oh and range wise they DO have a disadvantage they don't have FTL sensors but they do have a much faster(If unpredictable) FTL drive

Renewed_Valour1 · Post by **Renewed_Valour1** » 2003-01-01 01:51pm

Mr Bean wrote:Starfleet Ships are basically half a strong physically as High Guard, But make up 20% or so of that in shielding

I have to disagree. In several instances Andromeda has soaked up well into the low end GT range fire for just the low end. The BoJ was firing on her for several minutes attempting to destroy her while her defenses were down. These were smart missiles that the BoJ was firing so each hit adds up very rapidly. Then you have "Una Salus Victus" where a Nietzschean fleet of over a dozen destroyers ambushed the Andromeda and a relief convoy she was escorting. The Andromeda's point defenses were tasked to defending convoy while she soaked up fire from the fleet. You have a few other instances where the firepower she soaked up was far beyond anything that a Starfleet vessel could take.

Mr Bean wrote:A High Guard's Anti-Cap ship missals are supposedly 100 Megatons according to R-Valor and so far I've never heard an argument aginst it so lets use it

A slight correction that would be the PM-6LII Strategic Star Arrow; which is a smart missile but a MIRV variety with five independent kill vehicles based off the PM-6 frame. The PM-6 Star Arrow and PM-6L Strategic Star Arrow are the actual anti-ship missiles, they seem to be more powerful but the yield seems to vary.

Mr Bean wrote:Strictly they SHOULD go down to say around 6 Quantum torps or maybe 2 if they hit a lucky place

See above. For further comment a torpedo or full salvo of them would be ridiculously easy targets for the point defenses to pick off.

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2003-01-01 09:57pm

The borg would be reduced to particulate matter before they had any idea wtf happened to them.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-01-01 10:24pm

Beans right, the commonwealth's ships can pull of the Missiledoken, and one servo(I think is the word Hunt used) was said to be 30 gigatons. If the 100 megaton figure is right, and assuming Hunt is right too, it can fire 300 missiles off in a short time frame.

And since they don't have frequecny based weapons, borgs are gonna be dying like crazy.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2003-01-01 11:23pm

Wouldnt the AP gun be utterly useless?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-02 12:07am

Depends on the nature of Borg shields, or indeed if they have shields.

Renewed_Valour1 · Post by **Renewed_Valour1** » 2003-01-02 12:17am

ggs wrote:Wouldnt the AP gun be utterly useless?

The lions share of damage done by an AP cannon is KE. That and we know AP weapons at least work on UFP shields.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2003-01-02 06:28am

Howedar wrote:
Depends on the nature of Borg shields, or indeed if they have shields.

Well considering how useless it was for the Enterprise to fire antimatter at the Borg Cube in First Contact, I'll assume they have som type of shielding which prevents the anti-matter/matter reaction for occuring. The KE of the AP gun is another question.

Renewed_Valour1 wrote:
ggs wrote:Wouldnt the AP gun be utterly useless?
The lions share of damage done by an AP cannon is KE. That and we know AP weapons at least work on UFP shields.

You have any numbers for it? (Speed, total mass etc) If most of the energy comes from the KE, it doesnt make any sense to use antimatter. The stuff is too dangerious to use when their is better stuff around.

Renewed_Valour1 · Post by **Renewed_Valour1** » 2003-01-02 03:58pm

ggs wrote:Well considering how useless it was for the Enterprise to fire antimatter at the Borg Cube in First Contact, I'll assume they have som type of shielding which prevents the anti-matter/matter reaction for occuring.

They fired antimatter? I think they fired an antimatter spread at the Borg in their second encounter. I think that was more to distract the Borg so the shuttle could slip through the spread to recover Picard.

Renewed_Valour1 wrote:You have any numbers for it? (Speed, total mass etc) If most of the energy comes from the KE, it doesnt make any sense to use antimatter.

The AP cannons can fire a steady stream of AP out at 99 PSL until the tanks are exhausted which according to the science advisor happens very quickly. Though they usually just fire short burst of a few grams but they are only dealing with fighters most of the time. Total amount of AP is problematic; the Maru's storage tanks hold enough AP to make a bomb capable of "destroying a small planet". The question is what does one define as a small planer and how much does a GHC carry compared to the Maru.

You still get some damage coming from the antimatter but I know it is under than 30% IIRC. You'd need someone with more of a brain for physics than I. The thing is they have to store large amounts of antimatter to fuel the missiles and run the AP reactors so you might as well take advantage of the AP you have sitting around. The other thing is they might be making AP on the run considering they refuel with hydrogen from stars or gas giants and then use exotic matter to covert it to AP. It has never been said if that hydrogen is converted as it comes in or if they make AP on the run.

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2003-01-02 08:20pm

The only time anti-matter was ever used was in the TNG ep "Best of Both Worlds, part 2" when the Enterprise-D fired an "anti-matter spread" to keep the cube from noticing the shuttlecraft approaching to rescue Picard. The whole point was to provide a distraction, not to cause uber ammounts of damage.