Mithril

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-12-31 03:43pm

On watching The Fellowship of the Ring extended edition the first time I was thinking that there seem to be some parallels between Mithril and titanium. The color and that it's hard and light, and the Dwarves were mining veins of it from the Earth. Besides, if anyone ever made a mail shirt out of titanium like the one Frodo has it would be worth a bundle just because of how fine the links were.

Okay, this was all before the thread on sci-fi metals explained a bit more about titanium and other metals.

While I still think Mithril draws some ideas from titanium I think it fits better beside Uru and Adamantine, indestructable "magic" metals from human myths.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 03:49pm

It's still incredibly stupid. Even if it stops penetration, the fact that it's flexible means that Frodo would be killed from blunt-force trauma.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-31 03:50pm

There aren't any parallels between mithril and titanium as far as I know. Tolkien hated any sort of "scientification" of Middle-earth.

Mithril was simply regarded as silver in it's purest form, and it could only be mined in Moria (and possibly Numenor).

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-12-31 04:03pm

Darth Wong wrote:It's still incredibly stupid. Even if it stops penetration, the fact that it's flexible means that Frodo would be killed from blunt-force trauma.

Well he did look like he was dying.. they all thought he was. I think that the Chain Mail was also made so well by the Dwarfs that it spreads the shock of an impact across the entire armour, meaning that it lessens the blow to a single point. (I don't know much about science but I think that makes sense, I could be very wrong of course, but isn't it the whole point of Surface area? Maybe I'm applying it wrong here?)

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-12-31 04:12pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:There aren't any parallels between mithril and titanium as far as I know. Tolkien hated any sort of "scientification" of Middle-earth.

Mithril was simply regarded as silver in it's purest form, and it could only be mined in Moria (and possibly Numenor).

In that case I would imagine that any resemblance to titanium is either from how they did it in the movie or just from my own brain bug.

Going by what Darth Wong said I would definately go with Mithril being Tolkien's mythological equivalent to Uru and Adamantine. Mainly that in some what it is inherently magical.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-31 04:12pm

Doesn't plate armor resist piercing and reduce blunt force trauma because of its rigidity and ability to spread the force over a larger area?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 04:14pm

Skelron wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's still incredibly stupid. Even if it stops penetration, the fact that it's flexible means that Frodo would be killed from blunt-force trauma.
Well he did look like he was dying.. they all thought he was.

His guts should have been jelly.

I think that the Chain Mail was also made so well by the Dwarfs that it spreads the shock of an impact across the entire armour, meaning that it lessens the blow to a single point. (I don't know much about science but I think that makes sense, I could be very wrong of course, but isn't it the whole point of Surface area? Maybe I'm applying it wrong here?)

'Fraid so. Since the armour is not rigid, it will not spread the force out over a large area.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2002-12-31 04:17pm

Darth Wong wrote:It's still incredibly stupid. Even if it stops penetration, the fact that it's flexible means that Frodo would be killed from blunt-force trauma.

Maaaaa...gic.

And Hobbits are incredibly resistant. Small, not very strong, but resistant.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-12-31 04:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Skelron wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's still incredibly stupid. Even if it stops penetration, the fact that it's flexible means that Frodo would be killed from blunt-force trauma.
Well he did look like he was dying.. they all thought he was.
His guts should have been jelly.
I think that the Chain Mail was also made so well by the Dwarfs that it spreads the shock of an impact across the entire armour, meaning that it lessens the blow to a single point. (I don't know much about science but I think that makes sense, I could be very wrong of course, but isn't it the whole point of Surface area? Maybe I'm applying it wrong here?)
'Fraid so. Since the armour is not rigid, it will not spread the force out over a large area.

IOW, Mithril is magic.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-12-31 04:22pm

Perhaps Frodo would have eventually died from internal bleeding except for The One Ring? It kept Gollum alive for 500 years maybe it ended up helping Frodo?

That's obviously a cop-out rationalization when it's obvious that what we're supposed to think is that the mithril chain mail saved him but that's sci-fi and fantasy for you.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-12-31 04:22pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Skelron wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's still incredibly stupid. Even if it stops penetration, the fact that it's flexible means that Frodo would be killed from blunt-force trauma.
Well he did look like he was dying.. they all thought he was.
His guts should have been jelly.
I think that the Chain Mail was also made so well by the Dwarfs that it spreads the shock of an impact across the entire armour, meaning that it lessens the blow to a single point. (I don't know much about science but I think that makes sense, I could be very wrong of course, but isn't it the whole point of Surface area? Maybe I'm applying it wrong here?)
'Fraid so. Since the armour is not rigid, it will not spread the force out over a large area.

Well, anything in the movies is not canon.

In the book, the spear was thrown by a big orc, meaning that the impact was quite within survival limits.
Also, Frodo did not take a direct hit. Rather, it was a glancing blow. And he did have a huge bruise in the novel.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-31 04:23pm

Men would probably consider mithril to be somewhat magical. And we would with the D&D concept of magic.

But it really isn't that much. At least not to the Elves.

And I think in the Book LOTR, Frodo was attacked by an Orc.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 04:25pm

So it was Peter Jackson being an idiot then, and not Tolkien?

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-12-31 04:30pm

Darth Wong wrote:So it was Peter Jackson being an idiot then, and not Tolkien?

I think so. I also remember an Orc and spear in the book, also in the animated movie. So the troll with the large spear was "directors preference" or some such thing.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-31 04:31pm

I wouldn't call him an idiot per se...

I think he might have just taken mithril's properties a little too literally, that's all.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-31 04:32pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:There aren't any parallels between mithril and titanium as far as I know. Tolkien hated any sort of "scientification" of Middle-earth.

Mithril was simply regarded as silver in it's purest form, and it could only be mined in Moria (and possibly Numenor).

Exactly. The mithril mail was chosen symbollically, rather than through any scientific manner. It's meant to show how well purity (silver) can protect you.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-12-31 04:33pm

Darth Wong wrote:So it was Peter Jackson being an idiot then, and not Tolkien?

If you saw TTT. you would have no doubts about it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-12-31 04:42pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I wouldn't call him an idiot per se...

I think he might have just taken mithril's properties a little too literally, that's all.

Well all myths are prone to exagerations and different varriantions.

Sometimes that's part of the fun. Sometimes it can be kind of annoying though.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2002-12-31 04:43pm

Err excuse me, I'm not that aware of the mechanical properties of silver, but I've the intuition that an armour made of it would be much less efficient than a classical armour, am I mistaken ?

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2002-12-31 04:43pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Men would probably consider mithril to be somewhat magical. And we would with the D&D concept of magic.

But it really isn't that much. At least not to the Elves.

And I think in the Book LOTR, Frodo was attacked by an Orc.

Correct. It was an orc chieftan and not a giant troll that attacked Frodo.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-12-31 04:46pm

Next of Kin wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Men would probably consider mithril to be somewhat magical. And we would with the D&D concept of magic.

But it really isn't that much. At least not to the Elves.

And I think in the Book LOTR, Frodo was attacked by an Orc.
Correct. It was an orc chieftan and not a giant troll that attacked Frodo.

If the film was remaining true to the book, then IIRC all we should of seen of that troll is his foot and sting stabbing it

then two other trolls throwing slabs of stone down across fires.

As I recall, Frodo also got rather a large bruise......

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-31 04:47pm

The Nomad wrote:Err excuse me, I'm not that aware of the mechanical properties of silver, but I've the intuition that an armour made of it would be much less efficient than a classical armour, am I mistaken ?

Did you not read my first comment of the first page?

If not, do it.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-31 04:51pm

The Nomad wrote:Err excuse me, I'm not that aware of the mechanical properties of silver, but I've the intuition that an armour made of it would be much less efficient than a classical armour, am I mistaken ?

Correct. It would be heavier, less durable, and less hard.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2002-12-31 06:16pm

What about Platinium? Would that be better then silver?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-31 06:42pm

Sir Sirius wrote:What about Platinium? Would that be better then silver?

It would be heavier, but slightly stronger. I guess it would be moderately better, in terms of protection.