Magog vs. the Empire

[Darth_Nader]

simple in a all out battle, who would win?

[kojikun]

The magog inhabit 20 planets which are made into a structure, with a miniature "star" at its center. The number of ships contained within are unknown, but magog do have ships. Their full power is unknown, but they did give the Commonwealth a pretty hard time with the few they used.

Alone the ability to construct the world ship far outstrips what weve seen the empire do in the movies. If KDY is as large as said then technologically the empire would be equal. Weapons I cant say about.

However, despite the task of building a worldship, the Empire gets this. The worldship poses enough of a thread to make Hunt fear, and he lived through the magog war, so one might conclude that their major ships are dangerous, if indeed they have major ships. But still, they seem no match except in shear industrial capacity. Maybe.

[The Nomad]

Don't Magog worldships, IIRC, have something called PSP ?

[Mr Bean]

The Magag while powerful in thier own right are pretty weak when it comes to strategics

First of all the FTL of the Giant-Worldship is pretty much noexistant, Its slow going to go anywhere

It has a few Trillion Warriors in it fine but the problem is they don't have a few trillion ships, Rather just smaller swarmships which the avarage Imperal Star-Destroyer can smoke by the hundreds as long as the shield stay up(The vast majority of Swarm ships seem to be completly unarmed)

The large cannons on the Giant Worldship seem VERY powerful, However they suffer from the flaw of being
A. Short Ranged(All of AD suffers from lack of FTL sensors)
B. Slow Firing

Meaning an ISD can simply sit back five-light seconds away, Raing fire and death onto the Worldships defenses and shoot down any passing swarmship that heads in



The biggest advantage the Empire has over the Magag is Range
A Sector Fleet(24 ISDs Plus a hundred support ships) Should easily handle the Magag

The only question remains as to what Mr-Fire Eyes the Magag Demi-Godish guy will do

[Tsyroc]

The Magag while powerful in thier own right are pretty weak when it comes to strategics

First of all the FTL of the Giant-Worldship is pretty much noexistant, Its slow going to go anywhere

It has a few Trillion Warriors in it fine but the problem is they don't have a few trillion ships, Rather just smaller swarmships which the avarage Imperal Star-Destroyer can smoke by the hundreds as long as the shield stay up(The vast majority of Swarm ships seem to be completly unarmed)

The large cannons on the Giant Worldship seem VERY powerful, However they suffer from the flaw of being
A. Short Ranged(All of AD suffers from lack of FTL sensors)
B. Slow Firing

Meaning an ISD can simply sit back five-light seconds away, Raing fire and death onto the Worldships defenses and shoot down any passing swarmship that heads in



The biggest advantage the Empire has over the Magag is Range
A Sector Fleet(24 ISDs Plus a hundred support ships) Should easily handle the Magag

The only question remains as to what Mr-Fire Eyes the Magag Demi-Godish guy will do

Since he stopped his artificial star from going completely nova it would be interesting to see what he could do. Also, his "human" minons might work well against the Empire if he can lots of them and they all have those minature tessaracting devices.

A huge gound battle with swarms of Magog up against a third as many Stormtroopers might be interesting to see.


Unless The Spirt of the Abyss can pull some sort of suprise out of his hat I don't see the Magog even being much of a threat. Because of what Mr. Bean has stated.

[Renewed_Valour1]

A big factor is how mean the Spirit of the Abyss wants to be. A fleet of tesseracting PSP armed swarmships is going to make life very short and painful for the Empire. The Commonwealth only had to deal with the vaguard of the Magog and never their true force or capablity as Bloodmist told Rev Bem.

First of all the FTL of the Giant-Worldship is pretty much noexistant, Its slow going to go anywhere

Well to be fair to the Worldship it was traveling a very long distance. It probably is fairly fast by say the standards of B5 or Star Trek. But compared to a hyperdrive or slipstream equipped vessel slow.

Rather just smaller swarmships which the avarage Imperal Star-Destroyer can smoke by the hundreds as long as the shield stay up(The vast majority of Swarm ships seem to be completly unarmed)

They are armed just with more conventional weapons than PSPs. If you watch "It's Hour Come Around at Last" you'll notice that the Andromeda was suffering impacts prior to any of the Magog vessels boarding her. That was probably weapons fire being used to bring down the fullerene mesh protecting the hull of the Andromeda. One doesn't want to try to board a ship only to bounce off the mesh when you get to it. If they weren't armed the High Guard would have picked them off by the millions.

As for the presence of PSPs your guess would be as good as mine. You can't say either way since our knowledge of Magog ships rests on three episodes. I do think there is two distinct flavors a fairly lightly armored transport and a more heavily armed PSP "capital" swarmship. The same one we saw in "All too Human"; which is probably what the second wave of Magog will be. The earlier Magog attacks were just a vanguard according to Bloodmist.

(All of AD suffers from lack of FTL sensors)

You're wrong on that account. Even the High Guard possessed primitive tachyon based FTL sensors thought they may just be potentially passive sensors. The Andromeda used them in "The Fair Unknown" to scan for events in a system that she wasn't even in.

Then the Magog or their agents on several occasions have used FTL based sensors. The first time in "Harper 2.0" Jeger from his asteroid base was scanning the star that Harper left hidden in a star. The chances of Jeger's bases and that star being in the same system are astronomically unlikely. Then the near misses with PSPs that the Worldship was achieving when the Andromeda was outside of nova bomb range could have only been achieved if they were using FTL sensors. Again in "Into the Labyrinth" the agents of the Magog were tracking events in real time at distances where they shouldn't have been able to.

B. Slow Firing

Watch "All too Human" the PSP launchers on the Basilik were salvoing PSPs at a rate of one every 1 or 2 seconds.

Meaning an ISD can simply sit back five-light seconds away, Raing fire and death onto the Worldships defenses and shoot down any passing swarmship that heads in.

Except turbolaser fire could be intercepted by PSBs; firing a PSP into you incoming HTL bolt isn't exactly going to do it much good. Second the MWS was achieving close calls with PSPs aimed at the Andromeda when the Andromeda was outside of missile range. Enough so that they were jinking the vessel to avoid fire. At five light seconds the ISD is going to be slaughtered.

[HemlockGrey]

Set turbolasers to flak. Bring in the death star. Roast!

[Renewed_Valour1]

Also, his "human" minons might work well against the Empire if he can lots of them and they all have those minature tessaracting devices.

The espionage potential of the technology is immense. See how well the Empire does when the Agents can pretty much assess their most secure bases to steal technlogy and information.

A huge gound battle with swarms of Magog up against a third as many Stormtroopers might be interesting to see.

That would be interesting… Especially since we know nothing about Magog ground combat tactics. There had to be some way that they dealt with High Guard armored forces. Or maybe they really are bigger carnivorous Ewoks…

[NecronLord]

Meaning an ISD can simply sit back five-light seconds away, Raing fire and death onto the Worldships defenses and shoot down any passing swarmship that heads in.

Except turbolaser fire could be intercepted by PSBs; firing a PSP into you incoming HTL bolt isn't exactly going to do it much good. Second the MWS was achieving close calls with PSPs aimed at the Andromeda when the Andromeda was outside of missile range. Enough so that they were jinking the vessel to avoid fire. At five light seconds the ISD is going to be slaughtered.

TL fire travels at C. The PSP travels at what speed again? The canon sensors of the magog are at what speed?

[Renewed_Valour1]

TL fire travels at C.

Yes? So?

The PSP travels at what speed again?

50+ PSL

The canon sensors of the magog are at what speed?

I believe I have been over this. I expect you can look above to find it. Or if you really want I can quote myself.

[Ender]

Fire up the Galaxy Gun and do it Ender's Game style.

[Mr Bean]

The Commonwealth only had to deal with the vaguard of the Magog and never their true force or capablity as Bloodmist told Rev Bem.

That information is suspect due to the nature of the conversation, Remeber Bloodmist is doing his best to convert Bem to the old way, Besides which a VANGUARD to being with is not a bunch of Scout Vessels an a Captial Ship or two, normaly is a heavly armoed forced

IE to say it planier, IF the Empire sends a Vanguard of the fleet, do you think it will be made up of TIE Fighters and Bulk Frieghters? Or ISDs?

Or to say it quite another way, Your taking Dialog for fact without it being demosrated(After all thats ALL the information we have is the statments of one invdiual who gives no numbers or references just says its the vanguard)

Well to be fair to the Worldship it was traveling a very long distance. It probably is fairly fast by say the standards of B5 or Star Trek. But compared to a hyperdrive or slipstream equipped vessel slow.

It might not even be FTL at all think about it, The AD lost its first crew to the Worldship, was it sixty years ago? Then they come back 60 years later and it takes them, what a few moments to find it, using the same FTL route? Its been headed moving towards the CW for at least Ten Years now, possible as much as one-hundred, 2000C would have gotten you across half the Galaxy by then and as you can plainly see its IN A Galaxy during the Flashback and IN another one when they get back, If we wanted to get real techical(And we did not have Dialog over visuals statment of the AD Crew) we could try and do a Star-Chart and guess where they where


But I'm rambling

They are armed just with more conventional weapons than PSPs. If you watch "It's Hour Come Around at Last" you'll notice that the Andromeda was suffering impacts prior to any of the Magog vessels boarding her. That was probably weapons fire being used to bring down the fullerene mesh protecting the hull of the Andromeda. One doesn't want to try to board a ship only to bounce off the mesh when you get to it. If they weren't armed the High Guard would have picked them off by the millions.

They never pick them off to begin with, The AD Crew despite her near .9C speeds seems to always be caught and caught easily by swarmships whenever they attack

Then the Magog or their agents on several occasions have used FTL based sensors. The first time in "Harper 2.0" Jeger from his asteroid base was scanning the star that Harper left hidden in a star. The chances of Jeger's bases and that star being in the same system are astronomically unlikely. Then the near misses with PSPs that the Worldship was achieving when the Andromeda was outside of nova bomb range could have only been achieved if they were using FTL sensors. Again in "Into the Labyrinth" the agents of the Magog were tracking events in real time at distances where they shouldn't have been able to.

They have however the problem your forgeting is the fact they never demosrate FTL sensors in a combat situation, as for the Near misses with the PSPs by the Worldship may I point out to you that in both attack runs the AD was traveling in a strait line? With a strait moving target and a fixed platform you could hit it easily with a slide-ruler and around six seconds of caculations(Strait line and its flying AT YOU? and you miss? Thats pretty bad)

Watch "All too Human" the PSP launchers on the Basilik were salvoing PSPs at a rate of one every 1 or 2 seconds.

I'm refering to the Larger Cannons on the Worldship as beeing slow firing

Except turbolaser fire could be intercepted by PSBs; firing a PSP into you incoming HTL bolt isn't exactly going to do it much good. Second the MWS was achieving close calls with PSPs aimed at the Andromeda when the Andromeda was outside of missile range. Enough so that they were jinking the vessel to avoid fire. At five light seconds the ISD is going to be slaughtered.

They Can't hit a ship moving at .9C in a strait line thats roughly 2400% Larger than an HTL shot and you expect them to incerpt somthing traveling at C and much smallers?

[kojikun]

I would note that PSPs are pathetically weak. They tear small hole in unshielding hulls. M-HTL fire would entirely DESTROY an unshielding ship in one shot.

[kojikun]

Also the worldship has no shields. 200GT will tear that place apart. One hit would tear the planets surface open and kill billions of magog. Full fire all guns would waste the worldship before the magog knew it was there.

[The Nomad]

I would note that PSPs are pathetically weak. They tear small hole in unshielding hulls. M-HTL fire would entirely DESTROY an unshielding ship in one shot.

OM-6 kinetic missiles are 20 mt IIRC and they do not "explode", they go simply through the hull. The PSP shot could potentially go through the ISD's hull and shield as if they weren't here, not blowing up the entire structure but destroying everything in its path.

[Renewed_Valour1]

That information is suspect due to the nature of the conversation, Remeber Bloodmist is doing his best to convert Bem to the old way, Besides which a VANGUARD to being with is not a bunch of Scout Vessels an a Captial Ship or two, normally is a heavily armored forced.

It does however fit in perfectly with the rest of available information. First we have Satrina comments from "Into the Labyrinth" about no one knowing the truth about the full capabilities of the Magog. Then we have the Treaty of Anatares; a Commonwealth ploy to buy time in rearming the High Guard. A ploy they enacted because their scouts got a whiff of the main force of the Magog coming at them. I wouldn't say a vanguard exactly but a force sent to disrupt the Commonwealth and wage guerrilla warfare. Essentially the Viet Cong of the Magog while the main force is lagging behind waiting to snatch up a galaxy left undefended with no High Guard.

It might not even be FTL at all think about it, The AD lost its first crew to the Worldship, was it sixty years ago? .

Over 300+ years ago was when the first crew was lost to it. It is FTL and capable of slipstream travel that was confirmed by the writers after the episode aired. It is just essentially very slow compared to a smaller slipstream vessel. Perhaps power intensive considering you have to rip open a stable portal with so much mass in the area of the MWS. That or it could be there is some relation to size and slipstream travel.

They never pick them off to begin with, The AD Crew despite her near .9C speeds seems to always be caught and caught easily by swarmships whenever they attack.

Always? I would hardly qualify one instance as an always. That one time the Magog has attacked the Andromeda it was in the midst of the AI trying to reenact an old mission and sort of going off her rocker. This was on top of the fact that none of the crew at battlestations and the AI trying to kill said crew. It would be hardly be an accurate assessment of the Andromeda's combat capabilities; like saying the Executor was in tip top shape when the A-Wing removed her bridge.

The other times Swarmships have attacked later in the episode the Andromeda did just fine against them. She was holding her own and the main problem is she was running low on ammunition both missiles and AP to fire at them.

They have however the problem your forgetting is the fact they never demonstrate FTL sensors in a combat situation, .

They have them. That's the factor that matters. We haven't seen combat from the perspective of the Magog side so of course we wouldn't of seen them in a combat situation. We have however seen them in just about every other instance.

as for the Near misses with the PSPs by the Worldship may I point out to you that in both attack runs the AD was traveling in a strait line? With a strait moving target and a fixed platform you could hit it easily with a slide-ruler and around six seconds of caculations(Strait line and its flying AT YOU? and you miss? Thats pretty bad) .

You are thinking the wrong moment. The PSPs that were fired as near misses were well before her attack runs on the MWS. At that Beka was loitering beyond effective missile range at a point where she thought she could evade the PSPs. Her course could be described as being at best diagonally away from the MWS in that FX shot. We also know from Beka's dialogue that she was flying an evasive course at that moment rather than a straight line.

I'm refering to the Larger Cannons on the Worldship as beeing slow firing.

They fired two to three PSPs within one or two seconds of each other in the instance of the near miss and the time they nearly hit the Andromeda. Not exactly a slow rate of fire.

They Can't hit a ship moving at .9C in a strait line thats roughly 2400% Larger than an HTL shot and you expect them to incerpt somthing traveling at C and much smallers? .

See above and watch "All too Human". PSPs were used by the Basilisk to intercept .9 C smart missiles and then used to pick off the sensor drones in that episode. Probably another instance of Magog FTL sensors at work considering they were using ballistic weapons to pick off evading targets at near C again.

I would note that PSPs are pathetically weak. They tear small hole in unshielding hulls. M-HTL fire would entirely DESTROY an unshielding ship in one shot.

The PSPs aren't weak; the hulls are in fact the weak element. The PSB is moving fast enough and acting on such a small area of the hull for such a short time that it just blasts right through before it can inflict much damage.

The nice thing about shield is that a hit on the shields will bring down that entire section and then the other section when it punches back out the other side. In comparison a single PSP would probably bring down any Star Wars capital ship shield in existence with a single hit. Arguably even the shields of the Death Star or planetary level shields (or at least inflict damage to the planet that screws everyone on it).

Also the worldship has no shields. 200GT will tear that place apart. One hit would tear the planets surface open and kill billions of magog. Full fire all guns would waste the worldship before the magog knew it was there.

A 200 GT turbolaser and the entire broadside of an ISD is a minor case of indigestion compared to the supernova that Enigma "swallowed" to protect the MWS. Even then you are assuming they don't just tesseract the entire MWS like the Vedrans do to solar systems.

[Cpt_Frank]

The magog would get slaughtered it wouldn't even be funny.
(quite actually it would)

[Renewed_Valour1]

The PSP shot could potentially go through the ISD's hull and shield as if they weren't here, not blowing up the entire structure but destroying everything in its path.

The hypermatter reactor is a fairly big target IIRC...

[Cpt_Frank]

The PSP shot could potentially go through the ISD's hull and shield as if they weren't here, not blowing up the entire structure but destroying everything in its path.

The hypermatter reactor is a fairly big target IIRC...

That's why it's heavily armoured, ever seen the ventral bulb?

[kojikun]

There are no FTL sensors in Andromeda.

[Renewed_Valour1]

That's why it's heavily armoured, ever seen the ventral bulb?

Assuming no shields that armor wouldn't even stop a 22 mt OM-5 kinetic missile. It would just punch right through converting the armor into plasma and punching right out the other side of the ship. Stopping a near C projectile the size of a fist with armor is "problematic". A PSP would punch right through the shield, right through the armored reactor bulb, and out the shields on the other side.

There are no FTL sensors in Andromeda.

Then apparently the Magog have magical STL sensors that scan stars in other systems in real-time for information that was just placed in them. I believe I have been over this all ready several times. Even the High Guard has tachyon based FTL sensors.

[Cpt_Frank]

That's why it's heavily armoured, ever seen the ventral bulb?

Assuming no shields that armor wouldn't even stop a 22 mt OM-5 kinetic missile. It would just punch right through converting the armor into plasma and punching right out the other side of the ship. Stopping a near C projectile the size of a fist with armor is "problematic". A PSP would punch right through the shield, right through the armored reactor bulb, and out the shields on the other side.

Proof for that? The armor was designed to give at least short-lived limited protection of gigaton level blasts.

[Mr Bean]

For your sake Valor I have to find it funny that kojikun seems to completly ignore 2/3 of the thread and make statments like that last one


Anyway this agian calls into question what exactly Evasive Manviors are in AD

Remeber the Nova attack run where they rush the Worldship? Remeber they ARE flying a strait line, Dialog or not, They are visably flying in a strait line before and after that run and the PSPs miss them

Also while the firing rate of the Large Cannons is nice, its CLEARLY in bursts, Not contiuies(Pow Pow Pow! They fire on us, Evade it! Shots of AD evading, THEN a few more seconds and they fire agian)

It by no means is contius

The main problem anyway is we are conducting half the debate in vacume pure and simple, If the worldship is not the main force(Which is both indicated and NOT indicated to be the main force) but just somthing else entirely... well wopydeee doo we have no idea about the ability of Magag space-combat(Though thier Ship to ship boarding actions combat is redicously weak, A single MG 42 Position would clog the hall-ways with thier dead, let-alone a more powerful... SHIELDED E-web(As we know from Courtship touching a shield is terribley lethal)

The regular swarm magag don't seem to run around armed and just a handful of humanoids can hold off hundreds with just semi-automatics

Admit this Valor, Boarding actions by Magag on Storm-trooper equiped ships would all go terrible for the Magag

[XaLEv]

Proof for that? The armor was designed to give at least short-lived limited protection of gigaton level blasts.

PSPs are black holes. Any armour in the PSPs path would fall within the event horizon and be sucked into the singularity, offering no resistance.

[Connor MacLeod]

Proof for that? The armor was designed to give at least short-lived limited protection of gigaton level blasts.

PSPs are black holes. Any armour in the PSPs path would fall within the event horizon and be sucked into the singularity, offering no resistance.

Shields and armor might not offer defense against black holes, but we know for a fact that ID can counteract the effects of a black hole, so its quite probable that a starships's inertial damping field, if extended, could negate the gravitaitonal effects of the PSP.