[Barton]The Federation is NOT Communist.

[SirNitram]

Since people are pulling the 'Where do you draw the line?' bullshit, I'll just whip out the Manifesto itself and compare everyone's favorite debtor-in-hiding's wrote on it. He invented the concept, so he'd know.

1. Abolishment of property rights. This specifically refers to 'Exploitive capitalistic property' like buying up supplies of goods to sell to others, investments, and similar. The concept of investment is alien to Picard.. Indeed, seeking it is 'infantile':

RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?

PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

and

PICARD: A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things". We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.

2. State controlled transportation. This one's obvious. Every Federation-built starship has 'USS', even the Raven. Even the great Lwaxana Troi, Ambassador, needs to book transport on a Starfleet vessel.(Manhunt)

3. State controlled communications. Even on DS9, every transmission has the little Starfleet emblem. This is illustrated by the lack of media coverage of the military coup of the Federation in Paradise Lost.

4. Religion and Traditional families must be eliminated. This is because they distract you from giving you all! These are certainly present. Observe Voyager, where a wedding is conducted, by the Doctor dressed up like a Priest... Yet he never mentioned God. At all. And the family?

LWAXANA (telepathy): He has nice legs too, Little One. Is he still yours?

TROI (telepathy): Humans no longer own each other that way, Mother.

LWAXANA (telepathy): Oh really? That's a custom we may have to introduce again.

And do we really need to bring up Risa?

5. State control of Industry. No brainer. No brand names, no evidence of non-government industry, not a goddamn thing... It's the Microsoft Future, where everything is identical and works the same. Yet there's no Microsoft. Or Apple. Or anything. The only company run by humans I recall us hearing about is a mining corp set up in New Sydney.. Which lo and behold, ain't a Federation world.

6. Citizens forced to work. See Picard's speech in First Contact. However, given the technology gap between Marx and the Federation, they may have moved to cheaped automation to handle the majority of their work, and now apply a 'Bread and circuses' approach to the proles.

I have the nagging feeling someone else did this breakdown before, but eh. Here it is.

[TheDarkling]

1. Abolishment of property rights. This specifically refers to 'Exploitive capitalistic property' like buying up supplies of goods to sell to others, investments, and similar. The concept of investment is alien to Picard.. Indeed, seeking it is 'infantile':

RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?

PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

and

PICARD: A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things". We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.

Which is just Picard saying people are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of wealth, people however are still interested in getting what they want, be it that holiday home in Malaysia or that retirement cottage on Bajor.

Vash still acquires wealth, as do the various Starfleet people, clearly people still gain material items (and extra homes, land and farms) it is just that Picard would have us believe this is no longer the principle aim of people (which given a minimum standard of living is a reasonable assumption, how many modern people would want to work if give a decent standard of living for free?).

2. State controlled transportation. This one's obvious. Every Federation-built starship has 'USS', even the Raven.

Incorrect
SS Vico, a civilian operated Oberth class.

Even the great Lwaxana Troi, Ambassador, needs to book transport on a Starfleet vessel.(Manhunt)

Yet Soong had his own vessel, Kasidy Yates does, the civilian traders from "The Sound of her Voice" do.

3. State controlled communications. Even on DS9, every transmission has the little Starfleet emblem.

Do they?
I thought they usually carried the Federation emblem, just like the Ferengi do, the Klingons, Cardassians, Dominion and the Romulans.

With that said, a government maintained communications network is not exclusive to communism.

This is illustrated by the lack of media coverage of the military coup of the Federation in Paradise Lost.

We don't see media coverage, but we don't see media coverage of the whale probe attack on earth either, or the Borg attack or V'gers attack, it may just be that we aren't being shown such pointless details.

Or it is possible the coup attempt was kept secret.

4. Religion and Traditional families must be eliminated. This is because they distract you from giving you all! These are certainly present. Observe Voyager, where a wedding is conducted, by the Doctor dressed up like a Priest... Yet he never mentioned God. At all. And the family?

Kassidy said her mother would want her married by a "minister", the Bajorans are clearly religious (and were ready to join the Federation), the Vulcans have their religious beliefs, Chakotay believed in the great spirit or whatever and still identified Christian myth with Americans (when asked about whether he believed in the myths of his people he asked Janeway whether she believed in Adam and Eve).

Religion is there in the Federation.

LWAXANA (telepathy): He has nice legs too, Little One. Is he still yours?

TROI (telepathy): Humans no longer own each other that way, Mother.

LWAXANA (telepathy): Oh really? That's a custom we may have to introduce again.

And do we really need to bring up Risa?

So a more liberal social attitude will lead to communism, good lord the neo cons have been right all along.

The above proves nothing, we still see the family unit is the basic way people raise children, do we see any children born out of wedlock?

5. State control of Industry. No brainer. No brand names, no evidence of non-government industry, not a goddamn thing...

We do have the Dytallix Mining Company and we do know mining colonies still exist however I would agree that to a large extent manufacturing has been taken over by the replicator (although shipbuilding and construction still go on).

It's the Microsoft Future, where everything is identical and works the same. Yet there's no Microsoft. Or Apple. Or anything. The only company run by humans I recall us hearing about is a mining corp set up in New Sydney.. Which lo and behold, ain't a Federation world.

That was some Trill not humans and Data explicitly refers to a Dytallix mining company which mined for the Federation.

We also know that the publishing industry still exists and that intellectual copyright is still important.

We know that civilian cargo haulers exist.

This requires an upfront injection of capital (to buy a ship, or buy the rights to book/ holonovel) plus work to turn into profit.
This capital is privately owned, clearly Kassidy Yates is a parasite living off the work of her crew just because she can afford her ship.

As for the way everything looks the same, the same is true for all of the other races and we know some of them aren’t communist.

6. Citizens forced to work. See Picard's speech in First Contact. However, given the technology gap between Marx and the Federation, they may have moved to cheaped automation to handle the majority of their work, and now apply a 'Bread and circuses' approach to the proles.

Maybe but everybody seems to want a job, perhaps for social reasons.
Julian Bashirs father had a multitude of jobs, but of course he was also able to raise significant hard currency to get his son an illicit medical procedure.

I have the nagging feeling someone else did this breakdown before, but eh. Here it is.

The evidence isn't new and in many cases I disagree that it actually shows what you say it does.
We do agree to some extent on the issue of the means of production being state owned but I don’t think it is exclusively state owned and I think that this easy ability to give everybody a high level of social welfare is what leads to statements like Picards.

[Patrick Degan]

Moving those Goalposts again, eh Darkling?

[SirNitram]

1. Abolishment of property rights. This specifically refers to 'Exploitive capitalistic property' like buying up supplies of goods to sell to others, investments, and similar. The concept of investment is alien to Picard.. Indeed, seeking it is 'infantile':

RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?

PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

and

PICARD: A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things". We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.

Which is just Picard saying people are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of wealth, people however are still interested in getting what they want, be it that holiday home in Malaysia or that retirement cottage on Bajor.

Neither of which invalidate the completion of the first part.

Vash still acquires wealth, as do the various Starfleet people, clearly people still gain material items (and extra homes, land and farms) it is just that Picard would have us believe this is no longer the principle aim of people (which given a minimum standard of living is a reasonable assumption, how many modern people would want to work if give a decent standard of living for free?).

None of which indicates the existance of investment and other forms of 'exploitive capitalistic property'.

2. State controlled transportation. This one's obvious. Every Federation-built starship has 'USS', even the Raven.

Incorrect
SS Vico, a civilian operated Oberth class.

Reference. Episode, screenshots, dialogue blurb. I'm not just taking your word for it.

Even the great Lwaxana Troi, Ambassador, needs to book transport on a Starfleet vessel.(Manhunt)

Yet Soong had his own vessel, Kasidy Yates does, the civilian traders from "The Sound of her Voice" do.

I'm seeing a dearth of anything but 'They do'. Episode names, screenshots or dialogue blurbs.

3. State controlled communications. Even on DS9, every transmission has the little Starfleet emblem.

Do they?
I thought they usually carried the Federation emblem, just like the Ferengi do, the Klingons, Cardassians, Dominion and the Romulans.

Then it's still controlled by the State.

With that said, a government maintained communications network is not exclusive to communism.

No, but it is one of the defining factors.

This is illustrated by the lack of media coverage of the military coup of the Federation in Paradise Lost.

We don't see media coverage, but we don't see media coverage of the whale probe attack on earth either, or the Borg attack or V'gers attack, it may just be that we aren't being shown such pointless details.

Or they don't exist.

Or it is possible the coup attempt was kept secret.

That being the point, moron. Control of the communications networks mean you can simply not let information out; any scale of coup can be kept an utter secret.

4. Religion and Traditional families must be eliminated. This is because they distract you from giving you all! These are certainly present. Observe Voyager, where a wedding is conducted, by the Doctor dressed up like a Priest... Yet he never mentioned God. At all. And the family?

Kassidy said her mother would want her married by a "minister", the Bajorans are clearly religious (and were ready to join the Federation), the Vulcans have their religious beliefs, Chakotay believed in the great spirit or whatever and still identified Christian myth with Americans (when asked about whether he believed in the myths of his people he asked Janeway whether she believed in Adam and Eve).

Spiritualism exists, yes. Organized religion in the form we know it today does not. The practical result is attained.

Religion is there in the Federation.

But just as Marx wanted, it is now impotent.

LWAXANA (telepathy): He has nice legs too, Little One. Is he still yours?

TROI (telepathy): Humans no longer own each other that way, Mother.

LWAXANA (telepathy): Oh really? That's a custom we may have to introduce again.

And do we really need to bring up Risa?

So a more liberal social attitude will lead to communism, good lord the neo cons have been right all along.

No, you idiotic little slimepile. I'm listing what is required for a communistic society. This is one of them. Deal with it, fucktard, instead of snide comments which amount to nothing.

The above proves nothing, we still see the family unit is the basic way people raise children, do we see any children born out of wedlock?

So the onscreen evidence is countered with 'You didn't see any /bastards/ did you?' How pathetic. Real evidence, please. Or shut the fuck up.

5. State control of Industry. No brainer. No brand names, no evidence of non-government industry, not a goddamn thing...

We do have the Dytallix Mining Company and we do know mining colonies still exist however I would agree that to a large extent manufacturing has been taken over by the replicator (although shipbuilding and construction still go on).

Dytallix, if I remember right, is run on New Sydney. Which is not Federation.

It's the Microsoft Future, where everything is identical and works the same. Yet there's no Microsoft. Or Apple. Or anything. The only company run by humans I recall us hearing about is a mining corp set up in New Sydney.. Which lo and behold, ain't a Federation world.

That was some Trill not humans and Data explicitly refers to a Dytallix mining company which mined for the Federation.

And companies built for the Soviet Union, what's your point? They mine for the Federation. This indicates some level of control, if only because a supplier depends on it's buyers.

We also know that the publishing industry still exists and that intellectual copyright is still important.

Were you less stupid, you'd realize that neither of these are eliminated by the state seizing industry. But you are steadily obsessing and not thinking logically, so you posted this.

We know that civilian cargo haulers exist.

Episode, screenshot or script blurb.

This requires an upfront injection of capital (to buy a ship, or buy the rights to book/ holonovel) plus work to turn into profit.
This capital is privately owned, clearly Kassidy Yates is a parasite living off the work of her crew just because she can afford her ship.

And has to pay her crew in raw materials. Oh yea! Let's hear it for that commodity-based-economy, so prevalent in capitalist countries.. Oh wait, it's not. It's common enough in communist ones, though..

As for the way everything looks the same, the same is true for all of the other races and we know some of them aren’t communist.

6. Citizens forced to work. See Picard's speech in First Contact. However, given the technology gap between Marx and the Federation, they may have moved to cheaped automation to handle the majority of their work, and now apply a 'Bread and circuses' approach to the proles.

Maybe but everybody seems to want a job, perhaps for social reasons.
Julian Bashirs father had a multitude of jobs, but of course he was also able to raise significant hard currency to get his son an illicit medical procedure.

Again, a more intelligent reader would notice that hard currency does not mean it's not communism.

I have the nagging feeling someone else did this breakdown before, but eh. Here it is.

The evidence isn't new and in many cases I disagree that it actually shows what you say it does.

Your disagreement sums up to three or four instances of 'It really does exist!' without any sort of hard evidence, and alot of red herrings and whinings.

We do agree to some extent on the issue of the means of production being state owned but I don’t think it is exclusively state owned and I think that this easy ability to give everybody a high level of social welfare is what leads to statements like Picards.

The sad thing is you don't even realize that's one of the core parts of communism.

[Stofsk]

2. State controlled transportation. This one's obvious. Every Federation-built starship has 'USS', even the Raven.

Yet Soong had his own vessel, Kasidy Yates does, the civilian traders from "The Sound of her Voice" do.

I'm seeing a dearth of anything but 'They do'. Episode names, screenshots or dialogue blurbs.

Here's that bit from "The Sound of Her Voice":

SISKO (V.O.)
Captain's Log: Stardate xxxxx.x
With the safe arrival of convoy
PQ-One in the Vegan System, our
escort duties are now complete and
I've set course for home.

4 INT. DEFIANT - MESS HALL

SISKO is sitting at a table with a cup of coffee and
reading a PADD. The mood in the Mess Hall is subdued,
quiet -- everyone on the ship is tired and weary after
a long mission. KASIDY YATES ENTERS carrying another
PADD. She sits down with Sisko and hands him the PADD.

DEEP SPACE NINE: "The Sound... " - REV. 4/14/98 - TEASER 5.

4 CONTINUED:

KASIDY
(re: PADD).
My first, and hopefully last,
mission report for Starfleet Command.

Sisko looks it over. Kasidy's tired too, but unlike
Sisko, she hasn't internalized the stress and tension
of the past few weeks. She can relax and Sisko can't.

KASIDY
You know, when I agreed to be
convoy liaison officer, I thought,
"Sure. Why not? I know most of
the freighter captains in the
convoy -- should be a piece of
cake." I didn't know I'd be
making twenty log entries a day
and filling out formal reports
every night.

SISKO
Well, it looks like you did a
pretty good job.

For your convenience SirNitram. I don't know about you but I don't read the words 'civilian traders', but I DO read Kassidy Yates specifically refer to her assignment as being under Starfleet Command's jurisdiction.

With that said, a government maintained communications network is not exclusive to communism.

No, but it is one of the defining factors.

What's more, the Federation not only owns the vast subspace relay network in Fed space, but they position starfleet officers on each and everyone of them. At least two. Ref. "Aquiel."

But that's ok, state-owned communications are regularly run by the military.

5. State control of Industry. No brainer. No brand names, no evidence of non-government industry, not a goddamn thing...

We do have the Dytallix Mining Company and we do know mining colonies still exist however I would agree that to a large extent manufacturing has been taken over by the replicator (although shipbuilding and construction still go on).

Dytallix, if I remember right, is run on New Sydney. Which is not Federation.

I'm not sure about that SirNitram, however the Dytallix Mining Corporation looked to be somewhat defunct when Picard travelled to one of it's mining worlds. Since he wasn't radio-challenged by ground control and since the mine he beamed down to was the site of a clandestine meeting, it would make sense that particular world was an abandoned mine. I think nothing is known about the rest of Dytallix's assets.

[Stofsk]

Interesting quote about Federation justice: apparently, civilians can be tried by the military.

Bennett is the top legal officer in Starfleet and has
the tired eyes of someone who's spent too many years
staring at legal briefs.

SISKO
Come in, Doctor. We were just
talking about you.

Bashir comes in, surprised and not sure what's going
on.

SISKO
(continuing)
Admiral, allow me to introduce
Doctor Julian Bashir. Doctor,
this is Rear Admiral Bennett --
Judge Advocate General.

BASHIR
Admiral...

BENNETT
Doctor.

BASHIR
May I ask what's going on?

SISKO
Your parents came to me this
morning and explained the
situation regarding your...
genetic background. I contacted
Admiral Bennett a short time ago.

BENNETT
we've just reached an agreement
that'll allow you to retain both
your commission and medical
practice.

Richard exchanges a look with his wife and then steps forward.

RICHARD
I'm going to prison.

BASHIR
What?

RICHARD
Two years. A minimum security
penal colony in New Zealand.

BASHIR
(to Bennett)
You can't do this.


DEEP SPACE NINE: "Doctor Bashir... " - REV. 1/6/97 - FIVE 56.

55 CONTINUED: (2)

BENNETT
It was your father's suggestion
Doctor. He pleads guilty to
illegal genetic engineering and in
exchange you stay in the service.

BASHIR
I won't be a part of this. I'm
not going to just stand by while
my father --

RICHARD
Jules... Julian. Listen to me.
This is my decision. I'm the one
who took you to Adigeon Prime and
I'm the one who should...
(ironic)
... take responsibility for it.

AMSHA
Let him do this, Julian.

Bashir looks at Richard, who looks suddenly embarrassed
and Bashir realizes that maybe he did get through to
Richard after all, even if Richard has trouble
admitting it.

BASHIR
(to Bennett)
Two years? Isn't that a little
harsh?

BENNETT
I don't think so. Two hundred
years ago, we tried to "improve"
the species through DNA
resequencing and what did we get
for our trouble? The Eugenics
Wars. For every Julian Bashir
that can be created, there's a
Khan Singh waiting in the wings --
a "superhuman" whose ambition and
thirst for power have been
enhanced along with his intellect.
The law against genetic
engineering provides a firewall
against such men and it's my job
to keep that firewall intact.
(to Richard)
I've made my offer. Do you accept?

Two other points of interest:

1) The penal colony on New Zealand is mentioned, and since this seems to be a plea bargain rather than trial, it seems that it's very much a 'white collar' prison, although this begs the question of why Paris was assigned to one, since he was considered an illegal combatant. Starfleet's Gitmo? But nicer?

2) The Admiral makes up some slippery slope bullshit about geneering humans and the great perils that can come from it. Since Bashir turned out fine - nay, perfect - this fear is totally unfounded. THe important part here is the subtext - the Bashirs modified their son through illegal means, through an independent scientist/doctor, and without the knowledge or consent of the State. Make of that what you will.

[Darth Wong]

Darkling, what evidence would you accept in order to prove that the Federation is best classified as a form of communism rather than socialist/capitalist? I'd just like to see how extreme and/or unreasonable your demands are,

That really depends upon what exactly you label communism, I prefer to let others define it and outline exactly what the features are and then whether the Federation has them or not.

I disagree with a number of points in your essay on the Federation being communist but those things aren't all necessary for a communist society to have (which is where in theory Vs in practice communism comes in) for example.

That is why (as I have said) I am far more interested in the individual characteristics which the Federation is said to have and not the label applied to it, in that way people can't play bait and switch (the theory says X but in practice only Z was achieved).

To illustrate better, I have no problem agreeing that one of the primary means of production seems to be state owned (that is the replicators) which certainly would point in the direction of communism however I also have no problem with the fact them mining corporations exist or that private Enterprise goes on.

So where exactly does one draw the line?
Is putting food on every table and clothing on everybody and then letting them buy up land and open up businesses/ buy holiday homes/ buy star ships and run cargo enough to make a nation communist, it certainly isn't in the manner that people often try to make out (since people allege that some of these things the Federation doesn't allow)..

In short the answer to your question would be evidence that the Federation fulfils the criteria people are putting forth in favour of the Federation being communist (brainwashing, no freedom of the press, no free elections, no free enterprise allowed and so on), what exactly that evidence would be I don’t know but since there is little to indicate those things are true it isn’t something I have had to make a determination on.

In other words, a shitload of handwaving which basically adds up to "I refuse to define specific criteria for the Federation to be classified as communist". Until you are willing to define those criteria, you have no argument, hence you have no case, hence you are FULL OF SHIT.

you don't seem to think that Picard's ignorance of the concept of investment

When does that happen, I have gone looking for it in "The Neutral Zone" and never found it, could you please point towards the exact example.

Whoops, it was Beverly Crusher, not Picard.

RALPH (freshly awakened from centuries of cryofreeze): I demand to know the cost of anything you do before the procedure is approved.

BEVERLY: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Now answer the point.

of Janeway's recollection of "that time in history" when salesmen existed qualify as evidence.

Yet Geordi is completely familiar with the idea of a sales pitch, Bajor which fulfils the Federations criteria is visited by salesmen, Quark is clearly a salesman, the Vulcan who varies his price according to customer is certainly selling with the intent of maximising his profits.

For the umpteenth fucking time, there was a thriving black market in the USSR, so the fact that you found one individual who did this does not mean it is common or approved practice. Moreover, the Federation is becoming familiar with Ferengi customs, so they will know of these activities even if they don't employ them. That's why they specifically warn cadets at the Academy to avoid the Ferengi during their travels (VOY: Caretaker).

Janeways naiveté seems to be aimed at the idea that nobody in the 24th century (in the Federation at least) would try to sell somebody something they didn't need just for money, yet she has no problem with a Vulcan doing exactly that (Tuvok must have been able to replicate a meditation lamp), Harry and Tom aren’t in the slightest bit surprised when Quark tries it on with them and so on.

Are you this fucking stupid in real life? Janeway obviously KNOWS WHAT IT IS; she STUDIED IT IN FUCKING SCHOOL, YOU IDIOT. You're still evading and ignoring the fact that it was SPECIFICALLY said to be practiced only in the PAST on Earth. The fact that they KNOW what it is when they encounter it only means that either they studied history or they graduated from the Academy more recently, since they started teaching everyone about the Ferengi. I can't believe how idiotic and evasive this "rebuttal" of yours is.

Let's review your logic:

Me: It was clearly stated in a canon book that salesmanship only existed in the past on Earth, not the present.
You: But Janeway knows what salesmanship is! Therefore she couldn't have learned about it only in history class, it must be taking place on Earth now!

Please grow a fucking brain.

[TheDarkling]

Neither of which invalidate the completion of the first part.

Picard says people are no longer greedy or obsessed with gaining money, this doesn't show an abolition of property rights, we know people own ships, holiday homes and land and so forth.

We also know that some humans (and Vulcans) operate out of a profit motive, I don't see any evidence of the Federation banning capitalism, I don't hear Quark worrying about the fate of his shop, I don't see Kassidy telling us she will have to move on once Bajor joins the Federation and so on.

If you have some evidence showing Starfleet has banned private Enterprise then I am willing to see it but I don't think Picard’s (proven incorrect) flowery language about people living in a land of luxury and working for the common good constitutes evidence in that direction and it doesn't override the other evidence pointing against that.

None of which indicates the existance of investment and other forms of 'exploitive capitalistic property'.

No but it does show Picard is being liberal with the truth and

Reference. Episode, screenshots, dialogue blurb. I'm not just taking your word for it.

You only had to ask.

Hero Worship TNG.

We also have Whispers from DS9, which has a list of about twenty ships, including a couple of SS and several more exotic.

There is also the case of the T'Pau which belong to the Vulcans, that ship had a Vulcan registry.

I'm seeing a dearth of anything but 'They do'. Episode names, screenshots or dialogue blurbs.

Sorry, it is just I have done this some many times I assumed everybody was aware of the evidence by now.

SOONG
I've never felt too comfortable
living anywhere without a prearranged
route of escape. I
admit, I wouldn't have guessed
I'd be running from a giant
snowflake, but...
(he shrugs)

From "The Sound of Her Voice"

KASIDY
You know, when I agreed to be
convoy liaison officer, I thought,
"Sure. Why not? I know most of
the freighter captains in the
convoy -- should be a piece of
cake." I didn't know I'd be
making twenty log entries a day
and filling out formal reports
every night.

That convoy was obviously private and it was working for the Federation.

Which is the same as the Norkova from "The Passenger" DS9, which was a freighter with a similar hull configuration to Kassidy's, was crewed by human civilians but had a LCARS interface on the bridge.

The Marquis had access to a Vulcan freighter which was civilian owned (because they bought it).

Kivas Fajo had his own ship.

Then it's still controlled by the State.

I don't dispute it is owned by the state, only that if you take the little symbol as evidence of state ownership then you must also assume that the Klingons, Ferengi et al have state ownership of the communications as well.

No, but it is one of the defining factors.

But as you admit, it points just as well to a Social Democrat nation like I see the Federation as being, even the Ferengi have state ownership if we take your criteria for judging it.

Or they don't exist.

Ah, but some of those were in TOS, are you now saying that TOS Federation was communist to?

If not then you must admit you are engaging in a double standard.

However let me add another comparison on top (but please don't miss out answering the above), where were the Ferengi journalists when the grand Nagus position changed hands, twice on DS9?

That being the point, moron. Control of the communications networks mean you can simply not let information out; any scale of coup can be kept an utter secret.

The coup that wasn't was only know about by a few Starfleet officers and the President, it would be easy to keep it a secret, at least in the short term.

Spiritualism exists, yes. Organized religion in the form we know it today does not. The practical result is attained.

Then what of this minister?
What of the Vulcan priests?
Surely you aren't telling me that Bajor (which I again point out was about to join the Federation) has no organised religion?

I think you should reconsider the evidence here and not just gloss over it, there is something here.

But just as Marx wanted, it is now impotent.

Kai Winn would disagree.

[
No, you idiotic little slimepile. I'm listing what is required for a communistic society. This is one of them. Deal with it, fucktard, instead of snide comments which amount to nothing.

Slimepile? not you best work Nitram.

Clearly the family still exists, you have tried to use Risa as an example of an attack on the family unit (or on morality) but it just doesn't wash.

So the onscreen evidence is countered with 'You didn't see any /bastards/ did you?' How pathetic. Real evidence, please. Or shut the fuck up.

Actually, upon thinking about it I realise we did see Worf’s son born out of wedlock but my point still stands, the family is strong, if not stronger than it is today.

The one divorce in all of Trek was between a Klingon and a Ferengi.

I would also like to know what onscreen evidence you have (although I do find it amusing how you cry foul when I point to the seeming lack of something yet it is perfectly fine for you to do so), because Risa is at worst just a bunch of people having sex, not an uncommon occurrence at some holiday resorts and some western nations even allow prostitution, clearly the Federation has not advanced far in this respect (if they haven't "backslid" into a stronger family unit).

Dytallix, if I remember right, is run on New Sydney. Which is not Federation.

No, it is run in the Dytallix system (imaginative chaps those Federation types, no?).


DATA
If I may, sir? Dytallix B is one
of seven uninhabited worlds mined
for the Federation by the Dytallix
Mining Company. I believe B is
in the nearby Mira system.

And companies built for the Soviet Union, what's your point? They mine for the Federation. This indicates some level of control, if only because a supplier depends on it's buyers.

That is true of any capitalist system, in fact it is the very crux of the capitalist system.

The Federation owns these worlds and employs a company to mine them, true we could just assume that this isn't an example of a private enterprise but the question becomes what would be proof enough?

Do we assume that Ferengi companies are state owned? No, and we have little reason to assume that Federation ones are either.

Were you less stupid, you'd realize that neither of these are eliminated by the state seizing industry. But you are steadily obsessing and not thinking logically, so you posted this.

Industry does not just mean factories, it means any method of production which requires upfront capital to produce.

If those publishers are profiting from their writers just because they have the capital to distribute the book then they are engaging in a capitalist act (they are the classic parasite of Marx, taking the labour of the writer, mixing it with capital and profiting by, in theory, doing nothing).

Episode, screenshot or script blurb.

The Odin, "Angel One" TNG.

Data:
The Odin was not a
starship, which means its crew
is not bound by the Prime
Directive.


The Outrageous Okona is

WORF
The course is inconsistent with
normal cargo routes.

Showing that in that area cargo running is routine and nobody is suprised to see a civilian operator.

In addition to those I have listed above (Yates and so on).

And has to pay her crew in raw materials. Oh yea! Let's hear it for that commodity-based-economy, so prevalent in capitalist countries.. Oh wait, it's not. It's common enough in communist ones, though..

Now now, Nitram I would like to know where that is from.

Again, a more intelligent reader would notice that hard currency does not mean it's not communism.

I did not say it did, my point was that he was somehow able to raise that cash so he must have had a job at some point which was well paying.

Your disagreement sums up to three or four instances of 'It really does exist!' without any sort of hard evidence, and alot of red herrings and whinings.

How about you concentrate on looking at the evidence (some of which you haven't really responded to) and give the colourful commentary and insults a lesser priority (and before you say it I am not engaging n style over substance, I am just recommending you concentrate on the substance of you posts rather than the insulting because you evidently can't manage both).

The sad thing is you don't even realize that's one of the core parts of communism.

Of course I realise that, however if the government allows free enterprise (the building of companies, investment and so forth) then it isn't really communism anymore it is social democracy like I have been saying.

I think you just find it shocking that I don't allow some sort of desire to be seen as winning to override my reasoning, which is why I can actually agree on some issues and not blindly tie myself into the mud and denounce everything you say as wrong (something for you to work on perhaps).

[TheDarkling]

For your convenience SirNitram. I don't know about you but I don't read the words 'civilian traders', but I DO read Kassidy Yates specifically refer to her assignment as being under Starfleet Command's jurisdiction.

Yes because she is acting as liaison between the freight captains and Starfleet, if these were Starfleet owned cargo people why would they need to hire a civilian freighter captain to act as liaison and why would that liaison be specially suited because she knew most of those freighter captains (because she herself is a civilian freighter captain).

Put aside you apparent dislike me and just look at the evidence objectively for a moment.

What's more, the Federation not only owns the vast subspace relay network in Fed space, but they position starfleet officers on each and everyone of them. At least two. Ref. "Aquiel."

But that's ok, state-owned communications are regularly run by the military.

The military also engages in massive scientific roles and thinks of war gaming as superfluous, in fact more than one Starfleet captain thinks of the military function as being a poor second to the primary scientific mission.

Starfleet is far more of the federations jack of all trades than a straight up military, however that is of course another long discussion in and of itself.

Modern communications facilities don't require people to stay on them for months at a time with only one person to talk to, putting Starfleet people there is probably the cheapest method of filling the role.

I'm not sure about that SirNitram, however the Dytallix Mining Corporation looked to be somewhat defunct when Picard travelled to one of it's mining worlds.

That world was specifically mentioned as abandoned (presumably mined out), however the company is stated to work on at least seven worlds, and we do not know the status on those other worlds.

Since he wasn't radio-challenged by ground control and since the mine he beamed down to was the site of a clandestine meeting, it would make sense that particular world was an abandoned mine. I think nothing is known about the rest of Dytallix's assets.

The world is stated to be abandoned (it wasn't very habitable anyway so once the mines want so did everybody else).

[TheDarkling]

Interesting quote about Federation justice: apparently, civilians can be tried by the military.

I'm not so sure; clearly Starfleet had to be involved because the decision on whether Bashir could remain in Starfleet was up to them.

We do know that the highest court in the land is called the Supreme Court and that civilian judges exist (Admirals Saties father), we also know that at the local level regional courts exist (using Bajor as an example, which could be disputed I suppose).

1) The penal colony on New Zealand is mentioned, and since this seems to be a plea bargain rather than trial, it seems that it's very much a 'white collar' prison, although this begs the question of why Paris was assigned to one, since he was considered an illegal combatant. Starfleet's Gitmo? But nicer?

We see this Penal Colony in Voyagers pilot and it is a walk in the park (literally, trees, a grassy meadow and so on).

Starfleet is just soft on criminals; they only give Kasidy Yates (an enemy of the state) six months after all.

Garak tries to hijack the weapons of a military vessel, commit genocide and start a war and he also only gets a few months (although he is in a holding cell).

2) The Admiral makes up some slippery slope bullshit about geneering humans and the great perils that can come from it. Since Bashir turned out fine - nay, perfect - this fear is totally unfounded. THe important part here is the subtext - the Bashirs modified their son through illegal means, through an independent scientist/doctor, and without the knowledge or consent of the State. Make of that what you will.

Some of the other genetic freaks didn't turn out so well though.

I think Worfs explanation that allowing genetic enhancements would force parents to have their children altered (to remain competitive) is a better objection.

[TheDarkling]

In other words, a shitload of handwaving which basically adds up to "I refuse to define specific criteria for the Federation to be classified as communist".

Oh I can define criteria but they wouldn't be minimal criteria, somebody being arrested for capitalist acts would for example point in the direction that the Federation was communist.

Somebody stating that free Enterprise was banned (although that leaves a lot of evidence to reconcile) would also work.

Lesser evidence may do but I wouldn't prejudge the evidence.

Until you are willing to define those criteria, you have no argument, hence you have no case, hence you are FULL OF SHIT.

Well I disagree with you, that should have been the first indication to everybody that I didn't have a clue.

Whoops, it was Beverly Crusher, not Picard.

Two things.

First, that doesn't show incomprehension about investment but about the practice of paying for medical care, so you haven't shown what you set out to.

Briefly on this point, this is somewhat understandable; Crusher does probably find it ludicrous that people should have to pay for medical care but then again so do I, Crusher just has a few hundred years of enlightenment under her belt.

And secondly, this never happens in the episode so isn't canon anyway.

Are you willing to concede this point (I ask only out of curiosity to see whether you could or not).

For the umpteenth fucking time, there was a thriving black market in the USSR, so the fact that you found one individual who did this does not mean it is common or approved practice.

Yet nobody in the military ever has somebody slapped in irons for it, Riker struts around talking of winning tons of cash from Quark and nobody uses it to get him sent to Siberia?

If the black market is so open that people don't get arrested and it isn't even frowned upon then it is practically capitalism anyway.
If I can sell my wares and use them to buy land and open up a shop, and then buy more land and build another shop and so on and employ people then I am building up a company.

I see no evidence this is all a black market enterprise although I await you showing me some.

Moreover, the Federation is becoming familiar with Ferengi customs, so they will know of these activities even if they don't employ them. That's why they specifically warn cadets at the Academy to avoid the Ferengi during their travels (VOY: Caretaker).

Harry said he was warned about the Ferengi but he was a very recent graduate, Geordi when talking about the sales pitch and so one had met the Ferengi for the first time only a few episodes before.

Are you this fucking stupid in real life? Janeway obviously KNOWS WHAT IT IS; she STUDIED IT IN FUCKING SCHOOL, YOU IDIOT.

She knows what it is as a historical oddity however she doesn't think that sort of thing happens in the modern day, it clearly does and later n her life it doesn't surprise her at all that Vulcan is engaging n salesmanship.

I can't make it any more clear than that, Janeway was being naive, salesman exist n the 24th century Federation, Janeway just thinks they only sell what people need (and she soon losses that illusion) and thus are just grocers or book shop people just profit hungry smooth talkers.

You're still evading and ignoring the fact that it was SPECIFICALLY said to be practiced only in the PAST on Earth.

It was stated that Janeway couldn't believe people would compromise their ethics for money, we have seen that this still goes on so Janeway is obviously wrong.

Me: It was clearly stated in a canon book that salesmanship only existed in the past on Earth, not the present.
You: But Janeway knows what salesmanship is! Therefore she couldn't have learned about it only in history class, it must be taking place on Earth now!

Allow me to clarify since I was apparently unable to communicate my self sufficiently clearly.

Here is the key part of Janeway’s statement

"about the time in Earth's history when people actually tried to talk people into acquiring things they didn't need, just to make money."

She finds it odd that people would be driven by a profit motive and doesn't believe people would be unethical in the pursuit of profit.

She doesn't believe this sort of thing goes on anymore (the local shop keeper selling you that extra pear, or the estate argent selling you that holiday home in Malaysia can't be engaging in that sort of thing, they are working to better all humanity surely).

However she is clearly wrong.

The Vulcan compromised himself to get more money (and Janeway chuckled about it later).

Picard easily guess that Vash's motives are profit based.

Picard is easily able to sell himself as a rogue archaeologist out for profit and so on.

Humans and Vulcans both continue to seek profits, it may not be the driving force for their society anymore if Picard is to be believed but it is there and it does exist.
Janeway is just being naive because she has been cocooned on Earth and she has the luxury of believing that nobody engages in such activities anymore (they do, although not as much as in the modern day).

We aren’t going to agree on the issue, you will continue to insult me no doubt but the idea that people no longer seek profit through the sale of goods has been shown to be untrue, so we can either take Janeway’s statement as youthful inexperience and acceptance of the Federation high ideals talk or we have a clash in which case (as I have already said) I will go with the TV show and with the weight of evidence.

[SirNitram]

Neither of which invalidate the completion of the first part.

Picard says people are no longer greedy or obsessed with gaining money, this doesn't show an abolition of property rights, we know people own ships, holiday homes and land and so forth.

And, you pathetic little sycophant, it doesn't show an absense of this. What it does, interestingly, show is that the Federation has implemented what Marx called the Communist New Man, who doesn't care for material things, but for the betterment of his peers. Where have we heard that one before?

<Snip bullshit about how businesses aren't banned, and all property rights aren't banned. Darkling can't fucking read that Marx wanted to ban 'exploitive capitalistic property'.>

Reference. Episode, screenshots, dialogue blurb. I'm not just taking your word for it.

You only had to ask.

Hero Worship TNG.

'Access Denied'. What a compelling argument.

We also have Whispers from DS9, which has a list of about twenty ships, including a couple of SS and several more exotic.

There is also the case of the T'Pau which belong to the Vulcans, that ship had a Vulcan registry.

None of which are described as privately owned in the relevent dialogue. Or are you such a fucking looney you think a communist nation wouldn't have non-military ships?

I'm seeing a dearth of anything but 'They do'. Episode names, screenshots or dialogue blurbs.

Sorry, it is just I have done this some many times I assumed everybody was aware of the evidence by now.

SOONG
I've never felt too comfortable
living anywhere without a prearranged
route of escape. I
admit, I wouldn't have guessed
I'd be running from a giant
snowflake, but...
(he shrugs)

I don't see anything indicating the slightest thing against my points here. Just that he liked to have an 'out' planned. Whoop de shit.

From "The Sound of Her Voice"
KASIDY
You know, when I agreed to be
convoy liaison officer, I thought,
"Sure. Why not? I know most of
the freighter captains in the
convoy -- should be a piece of
cake." I didn't know I'd be
making twenty log entries a day
and filling out formal reports
every night.

That convoy was obviously private and it was working for the Federation.

'Obviously' private? Yea, right. Nothing in the dialogue supports this. You're now moving into outright lying.

Which is the same as the Norkova from "The Passenger" DS9, which was a freighter with a similar hull configuration to Kassidy's, was crewed by human civilians but had a LCARS interface on the bridge.

The Marquis had access to a Vulcan freighter which was civilian owned (because they bought it).

Kivas Fajo had his own ship.

And you think things can't be obtained in a Communist nation? My god, you are a fucking retard. But yes, let's red herring off to the Marquis and Vulcans.

Then it's still controlled by the State.

I don't dispute it is owned by the state, only that if you take the little symbol as evidence of state ownership then you must also assume that the Klingons, Ferengi et al have state ownership of the communications as well.

Yep, they do. No claims otherwise.

No, but it is one of the defining factors.

But as you admit, it points just as well to a Social Democrat nation like I see the Federation as being, even the Ferengi have state ownership if we take your criteria for judging it.

And if it was only one point, you'd have a point. All six are shown. You just hate the outcome of this.

Or they don't exist.

Ah, but some of those were in TOS, are you now saying that TOS Federation was communist to?

On the road to it? Could be. There's no signs of Marx's preferred route of integration of Communism, IE, violent revolution, so it is entirely possible it was a gradual process begun during the TOS era.

If not then you must admit you are engaging in a double standard.

Why, because some evidence overlaps eras? My god, you're a pathetic liar. Without a solid peice of evidence against the communist argument, you now resort to this.

However let me add another comparison on top (but please don't miss out answering the above), where were the Ferengi journalists when the grand Nagus position changed hands, twice on DS9?

This proves, what, exactly, other than the fact the Ferrengi are oppressive as well?

That being the point, moron. Control of the communications networks mean you can simply not let information out; any scale of coup can be kept an utter secret.

The coup that wasn't was only know about by a few Starfleet officers and the President, it would be easy to keep it a secret, at least in the short term.

Because communications are controlled by the State. That's the fucking point. There wasn't even any knowledge that two ships fought over, IIRC, Earth's skies(Defiant vs. Latoka)

Spiritualism exists, yes. Organized religion in the form we know it today does not. The practical result is attained.

Then what of this minister?
What of the Vulcan priests?
Surely you aren't telling me that Bajor (which I again point out was about to join the Federation) has no organised religion?

'Was about to join the Federation' != 'Fully integrated member'. And Vulcan has been shown to have special status. You just ignore it.

I think you should reconsider the evidence here and not just gloss over it, there is something here.

Yes. The evidence all points to a communist regime. You are just obsessed and a fanboy.

But just as Marx wanted, it is now impotent.

Kai Winn would disagree.

[
No, you idiotic little slimepile. I'm listing what is required for a communistic society. This is one of them. Deal with it, fucktard, instead of snide comments which amount to nothing.

Slimepile? not you best work Nitram.

Why would I waste it on you? You've just built up a Wall of Ignorance, so it's not like you're ever going to shift, provide reasonable evidence to meet to get you to relent, or even stop with red herrings and outright lies.

Clearly the family still exists, you have tried to use Risa as an example of an attack on the family unit (or on morality) but it just doesn't wash.

You never actually read Marx's plans for breaking down the traditional family, I see. Free love(Just like Risa provides to all who visit) is a big part of it. But you're ignorant of what communism entails, so you will continue to bullshit.

So the onscreen evidence is countered with 'You didn't see any /bastards/ did you?' How pathetic. Real evidence, please. Or shut the fuck up.

Actually, upon thinking about it I realise we did see Worf’s son born out of wedlock but my point still stands, the family is strong, if not stronger than it is today.

It just has changed into what Marx wanted it to be.

The one divorce in all of Trek was between a Klingon and a Ferengi.

I would also like to know what onscreen evidence you have (although I do find it amusing how you cry foul when I point to the seeming lack of something yet it is perfectly fine for you to do so), because Risa is at worst just a bunch of people having sex, not an uncommon occurrence at some holiday resorts and some western nations even allow prostitution, clearly the Federation has not advanced far in this respect (if they haven't "backslid" into a stronger family unit).

Free Love.. A major part of Marx's syphilis-induced ravings of how Communist society will be best(Apparently, as well as a massive debtor, he also couldn't get laid). I make no comments on the morality of any of this. You are the only one making those claims. I simply compare the Federation to Marx's checklist.

Dytallix, if I remember right, is run on New Sydney. Which is not Federation.

No, it is run in the Dytallix system (imaginative chaps those Federation types, no?).


DATA
If I may, sir? Dytallix B is one
of seven uninhabited worlds mined
for the Federation by the Dytallix
Mining Company. I believe B is
in the nearby Mira system.

So this corporation does work directly for the Federation.. Leading them to be the controlling entity, as the buyer always has control..

And companies built for the Soviet Union, what's your point? They mine for the Federation. This indicates some level of control, if only because a supplier depends on it's buyers.

That is true of any capitalist system, in fact it is the very crux of the capitalist system.

Yet there's no evidence for capitalism, and plenty for communism.

The Federation owns these worlds and employs a company to mine them, true we could just assume that this isn't an example of a private enterprise but the question becomes what would be proof enough?

Companies selling to the general populace would be a good start.

Do we assume that Ferengi companies are state owned? No, and we have little reason to assume that Federation ones are either.

Except that the one example you can find deals directly with the State.

Were you less stupid, you'd realize that neither of these are eliminated by the state seizing industry. But you are steadily obsessing and not thinking logically, so you posted this.

Industry does not just mean factories, it means any method of production which requires upfront capital to produce.

If those publishers are profiting from their writers just because they have the capital to distribute the book then they are engaging in a capitalist act (they are the classic parasite of Marx, taking the labour of the writer, mixing it with capital and profiting by, in theory, doing nothing).

You miss the point entirely! How.. Completely unsurprising. I'll reiterate moron: Nothing in communism harms the existance of publishing or intellectual property. Marx's idealism would in fact favor the writer's intellectual property. He did, after all, rave on about the rights of the 'craftsman'.

Episode, screenshot or script blurb.

The Odin, "Angel One" TNG.

Data:
The Odin was not a
starship, which means its crew
is not bound by the Prime
Directive.

Interesting. It's not a starship. What was it then? Interplanetary hopper? Transatmospheric?

The Outrageous Okona is

WORF
The course is inconsistent with
normal cargo routes.

Showing that in that area cargo running is routine and nobody is suprised to see a civilian operator.

Wow, you're this stupid? Really? You don't realize a communist nation would utilize shipping?

In addition to those I have listed above (Yates and so on).

...Which never indicate private ownership of the vessels.

And has to pay her crew in raw materials. Oh yea! Let's hear it for that commodity-based-economy, so prevalent in capitalist countries.. Oh wait, it's not. It's common enough in communist ones, though..

Now now, Nitram I would like to know where that is from.

Again, a more intelligent reader would notice that hard currency does not mean it's not communism.

I did not say it did, my point was that he was somehow able to raise that cash so he must have had a job at some point which was well paying.

And you think communism doesn't provide you with forms of currency? Again, what bridge have you been living under?

Your disagreement sums up to three or four instances of 'It really does exist!' without any sort of hard evidence, and alot of red herrings and whinings.

How about you concentrate on looking at the evidence (some of which you haven't really responded to) and give the colourful commentary and insults a lesser priority (and before you say it I am not engaging n style over substance, I am just recommending you concentrate on the substance of you posts rather than the insulting because you evidently can't manage both).

Hey, Darkling. How about you form an argument that relies on something other than red herrings, lying, and a fundamental failure to understand what a communist regime entails, instead of this bullshit ad hominem shit? You have shown one quote which possibly, maybe, indicates a privately own ship.. In the entire Federation. The rest is inconsequental once someone actually understands what a communist regime entails.(And stops being such a moron that they think a communist nation wouldn't have shipping. )

The sad thing is you don't even realize that's one of the core parts of communism.

Of course I realise that, however if the government allows free enterprise (the building of companies, investment and so forth) then it isn't really communism anymore it is social democracy like I have been saying.

You really have no understanding of what's been said. The existance of one company that deals directly with the government does not indicate free enterprise or a free market.

I think you just find it shocking that I don't allow some sort of desire to be seen as winning to override my reasoning, which is why I can actually agree on some issues and not blindly tie myself into the mud and denounce everything you say as wrong (something for you to work on perhaps).

I find it shocking you resort to these outright lies when it's you who claim statements prove people to be private shipowners when it says nothing of the sort.

[Mange]

The question still remains: how do they exchange goods and services? That money also didn't exist during the TOS era is shown by these exchanges:

KIRK
Damn, they're still using money.
We're going to need some.

And:

WAITER
Who gets the bad news...?

GILLIAN
Don't' tell me: they don't have money in the 23rd Century.

KIRK
Well, we don't.

[Stofsk]

The question still remains: how do they exchange goods and services? That money also didn't exist during the TOS era is shown by these exchanges:

KIRK
Damn, they're still using money.
We're going to need some.

First off, Kirk and Co are in the 20th C, coming from the 23rd C. Why would FedCredits be good for a three hundred year time difference?

Secondly, they DO have money in the TOS period, since Kirk says in "The Doomsday Machine" to Scotty: "Scotty, you just earned your pay for the week." in reference to exceptional ability the scotsman demonstrated. In addition, Scotty said in ST6 "Suits me, I just bought a boat."

It seems in TNG they don't have 'money', or at least make that claim:

7 INT. JAKE & NOG'S QUARTERS

Nog is sitting in a chair with his arms crossed,
glaring at Jake and determined not to be swayed. Jake
is just as determined to get the diminutive Ferengi
cadet to bend.

NOG
No.

JAKE
Come on, Nog...

NOG
No.

JAKE
Why not?

NOG
It's my money, Jake. If you want
to bid at this auction, use your
own money.

JAKE
I'm Human, I don't have any money.

NOG
It's not my fault that your
species decided to abandon
currency-based economics in favor
of some philosophy of self-
enhancement.

JAKE
(defensive)
Hey, watch it. There's nothing
wrong with our philosophy.
(with pride)
We work to better ourselves and
the rest of Humanity.

NOG
(confused)
What does that mean exactly?

DEEP SPACE NINE: "In the Cards" - REV. 04/15/97 - ACT ONE 9.

7 CONTINUED:

JAKE
It means...
(reaching)
... it means we don't need money.

NOG
Well if you don't need money, then
you certainly don't need mine.

JAKE
How much latinum do you have?
(beat)
How much?

NOG
Five bars.

JAKE
Five bars!

NOG
Look, it's taken me a lifetime to
save that much money. I'm not
going to just throw it away for
some stupid baseball card.

Personally, the idea that there is absolutely NO money in the 23rd or 24th C is so stupid that I can't fathom why the writers deliberately put it in there. Having a closed economy fits in the context of this discussion, but here we have Jake state "We don't use money." Nog rightly calls bullshit on Jake's moronic 'philosophy of self-enhancement', wondering just what the hell it means. The only thing I can think of is the term 'money' doesn't mean the same thing as it does to us; something like 'latinum' is money, but FedCredits aren't. (kind of like how gold or USD was 'money' in the USSR, but rubles or the hungarian Forint weren't - I mean, they were, but they didn't match the same value as currencies from the West)

WAITER
Who gets the bad news...?

GILLIAN
Don't' tell me: they don't have money in the 23rd Century.

KIRK
Well, we don't.

Again, they wouldn't have USD in the 23rd C. Which makes Kirk's statement true, but not illuminating (hence why we have to fill in the blanks).

[Mange]

Stofsk, don't you understand, do I have to shout? KIRK: THEY'RE STILL USING MONEY. He's not saying THEY ARE STILL USING DOLLARS or something in the style of THEY ARE STILL USING SEPARATE CURRENCIES or whatever. Of course the currency would be different three hundred years into the future, but that's not the issue. And in reply to Gillian who asks, quite specifically, DON'T TELL ME: THEY DON'T HAVE MONEY IN THE 23RD CENTURY, to which Kirk shrugs his shoulders and says WELL, WE DON'T. I don't like to shout, but this SPECIFICALLY makes it clear THAT MONEY ISN'T USED IN THE 23RD CENTURY. Yes, Scott said he had bought a boat, but how did he do that? By whom? How does supply and demand work in the Federation economy since we have been told this about TOS and all the nonsense that Picard et.al. speaks about in TNG onwards. So, no money but some other kind of system.

[TheDarkling]

Secondly, they DO have money in the TOS period, since Kirk says in "The Doomsday Machine" to Scotty: "Scotty, you just earned your pay for the week." in reference to exceptional ability the scotsman demonstrated. In addition, Scotty said in ST6 "Suits me, I just bought a boat."

We actually see some form of credits during TOS (in the Trouble with Tribbles IIRC).

However we have similar quotes from TNG "Your buying" when talking about going to a bar or restaurant and we know Sisiko bought up some land on Bajor, that a realtionof Barclays friend has a holiday home.

We also know that TOS and TNG share the same economic style.

PARIS: Well, er, when the New
World Economy took shape in the late twenty second century and money went the way of the dinosaur,
Fort Knox was turned into a museum.

The New economy came about in Archer's timeframe not Kirks.

It seems in TNG they don't have 'money', or at least make that claim:

Nog says Jakes race has abandonned currency based economics, not the Federation which could indicate that Earth and teh cor ehuman is somehting of a special case(we know not all humans share this idea).

We also know that the Bolians have some form of currency (we hear of the Bolian currency exchange in "Starship down").

The only thing I can think of is the term 'money' doesn't mean the same thing as it does to us; something like 'latinum' is money, but FedCredits aren't. (kind of like how gold or USD was 'money' in the USSR, but rubles or the hungarian Forint weren't - I mean, they were, but they didn't match the same value as currencies from the West)

I would agree.

The way I see it (at least on earth) people doing a useful job get paid in FedCreds which are essentially a gift voucher redeemable at FedGov approved outlet (so Bob who maintains the power plants can take his FedCreds to Sisko’s restaurant, and Sisko in turn pays his waiters with FedCreds), however a person can live without FedCreds because even without them they will still have a house, food and basic necessities.

Businesses could also accept Latinum from off-worlders and the exchange between FedCreds and real currency would be possible.

The reason they might not see this as money is because it is no longer vital to a person survival, given the low opinion they hold of the idea of letting people starve because they can't afford it (and the like) they probably don't see a luxury allowance as "money" because it doesn't carry the negative aspects.

The above contains a lot of speculation but it is the only consistent way to reconcile the various statements both from TOS and TNG+.