[Scrubula]Battle Droids vs Federation (in ground combat)

[SylasGaunt]

The only "evidence" of deadly force used against the people of Naboo was a forged holonet transmission allegedly from Sio Bibble. You think that was reliable evidence?

So all the blaster fire and the Naboo pilots and security forces we see killed in the final battle are just an elaborate deception then? We're not talking about the TF going to town on civvies here, we're talking about them clearly using deadly force against an armed force launching an assault on their headquarters (while, I might add, most of their forces went out to annihilate the gungans).

Easy to pass off as an accident, like a plumbing rupture.

Not when you send droids to destroy the bodies.

[Darth Servo]

So all the blaster fire and the Naboo pilots and security forces we see killed in the final battle are just an elaborate deception then?

Not a deception. Perhaps an attempt to take them hostage like the Stormtroopers did at the Battle of Endor. You can still try and keep the enemy pinned down.

(while, I might add, most of their forces went out to annihilate the gungans).

And yet after the droids had overpowered the gungans, did they start exterminating them? No. They took them prisoner, even though NO ONE gives a shit about them.

Easy to pass off as an accident, like a plumbing rupture.

Not when you send droids to destroy the bodies.

Destroying the bodies makes it EASIER to pass off as an accidnet. No bodies, no evidence of foul play.

[SylasGaunt]

Not a deception. Perhaps an attempt to take them hostage like the Stormtroopers did at the Battle of Endor. You can still try and keep the enemy pinned down.

The only person they needed to legalize their invasion was Queen Amidala herself. None of the pilots or police force were needed as hostages for their plan to work. Likewise there's also all the Naboo pilots who were blown away trying to take out the droid control ship. Plenty of lethal force being tossed about there.

And yet after the droids had overpowered the gungans, did they start exterminating them? No. They took them prisoner, even though NO ONE gives a shit about them.

This could simply have been to round them up before lining them up to be shot, and indeed there is some reason to believe so (sidious' order to wipe them out).

Destroying the bodies makes it EASIER to pass off as an accidnet. No bodies, no evidence of foul play.

A plumbing leak does not, to my knowledge, vaporize a corpse. Nor does it typically leave a giant blaster scorch where said corpse used to be. Further the trade federation position was never 'whoops, they died accidently, our bad.' It was 'Ambassadors? What ambassadors?"

I ask again, do you have any evidence at all suggesting that they weren't trying to kill Amidala's guards?

[Darth Servo]

The only person they needed to legalize their invasion was Queen Amidala herself. None of the pilots or police force were needed as hostages for their plan to work.

They still had PR to worry about.

Likewise there's also all the Naboo pilots who were blown away trying to take out the droid control ship. Plenty of lethal force being tossed about there.

They could chalk that up to self defense.

This could simply have been to round them up before lining them up to be shot, and indeed there is some reason to believe so (sidious' order to wipe them out).

Why would they need to be lined up to be executed? Just open up with full auto as they retreat. And they were having LOTS of second thoughts about allying themselves with Sidious.

A plumbing leak does not, to my knowledge, vaporize a corpse.

Depends on whats leaking. There ARE substances that eat away flesh. Ever heard of acid?

Nor does it typically leave a giant blaster scorch where said corpse used to be.

I don't recall those shots leaving giang scorch marks.

Further the trade federation position was never 'whoops, they died accidently, our bad.' It was 'Ambassadors? What ambassadors?"

And if a body is found in their custody, it makes those denials a LOT harder, doesn't it?

I ask again, do you have any evidence at all suggesting that they weren't trying to kill Amidala's guards?

Since I'm not a mind reader, no. I can only deduce general patterns from their behavior, like taking enemy gungans prisoner instead of shooting them on sight.

[SylasGaunt]

They still had PR to worry about.

Not to the degree you seem to suggest. They had the planet locked down. No communications going out and no ships either.

They could chalk that up to self defense.

And a gun-toting assailant at close range can't be?

Why would they need to be lined up to be executed? Just open up with full auto as they retreat. And they were having LOTS of second thoughts about allying themselves with Sidious.

For one thing it's a lot easier to be sure you got them all if you get them all in one spot first as opposed to running off in all directions.

Depends on whats leaking. There ARE substances that eat away flesh. Ever heard of acid?

And you would have this pumping through the walls of a meeting room... why exactly? And if they were going to go with that excuse why not just use actual acid instead of toxic gas?

I don't recall those shots leaving giang scorch marks.

We're talking about using blasters to destroy a human corpse. That's going to take rather more blaster fire than just killing someone.

And if a body is found in their custody, it makes those denials a LOT harder, doesn't it?

Except that you're suggesting they were setting up an excuse that the Jedi had died in an accident.

Since I'm not a mind reader, no. I can only deduce general patterns from their behavior, like taking enemy gungans prisoner instead of shooting them on sight.

Addressed above.

[Darth Servo]

They still had PR to worry about.

Not to the degree you seem to suggest. They had the planet locked down. No communications going out and no ships either.

After Amidala's speech to the senate, SOMEONE is going to investigate. It was outrageous enough to get Valorum ousted from power, after all.

They could chalk that up to self defense.

And a gun-toting assailant at close range can't be?

On the surface of the OTHER person's world, not really. Out in orbit, its international waters. Its hard to play the self defense card when you've broken into someone's home and they shoot you. Its a bit easier when you run into them on the street.

For one thing it's a lot easier to be sure you got them all if you get them all in one spot first as opposed to running off in all directions.

They are ALREADY running in all different directions. It seems much HARDER to round them up and then shoot them than just shooting them.

Depends on whats leaking. There ARE substances that eat away flesh. Ever heard of acid?

And you would have this pumping through the walls of a meeting room... why exactly? And if they were going to go with that excuse why not just use actual acid instead of toxic gas?

I didn't say it WAS acid. That was just an example of things that CAN destroy a body. With the bodies destroyed, they can make up any old story as to what happened.

I don't recall those shots leaving giang scorch marks.

We're talking about using blasters to destroy a human corpse. That's going to take rather more blaster fire than just killing someone.

Like I said, there are OTHER ways of eliminating the body than blasters.

And if a body is found in their custody, it makes those denials a LOT harder, doesn't it?

Except that you're suggesting they were setting up an excuse that the Jedi had died in an accident.[/quote]Uh, yeah. That IS consistant with their cover story that the Jedi never arrived in the first place. If the Jedi escape and tell their tale to the senate, they KNOW the neimodians were lying. They NEEDED to kill the Jedi and make it look like an accident. Just because they tell the senate that the accident happened before the Jedi arrived doesn't change that.

[SylasGaunt]

After Amidala's speech to the senate, SOMEONE is going to investigate. It was outrageous enough to get Valorum ousted from power, after all.

Nobody's going to be doing shit Palpy doesn't want them to. Besides if the inspectors were such a certainty Padme had no damn reason to run back home.

On the surface of the OTHER person's world, not really. Out in orbit, its international waters. Its hard to play the self defense card when you've broken into someone's home and they shoot you. Its a bit easier when you run into them on the street.

I do hope you have a quote backing this idea because I don't recall anything that does.

They are ALREADY running in all different directions. It seems much HARDER to round them up and then shoot them than just shooting them.

Rounding them up and shooting them is rather common practice actually.

I didn't say it WAS acid. That was just an example of things that CAN destroy a body. With the bodies destroyed, they can make up any old story as to what happened.

Except that their position is that the Ambassadors never showed up. Not 'the Ambassadors showed up and got killed by our shitty plumbing in an accident no Jedi would ever get caught in'.

Like I said, there are OTHER ways of eliminating the body than blasters.

Except that they didn't use them. Instead they sent Battledroids, with blasters, to destroy the corpses.

Uh, yeah. That IS consistant with their cover story that the Jedi never arrived in the first place.

Then why the fuck did you come up with this dumb-ass theory about killing them in a way that makes it look like an accident if they're going to destroy the corpses and say they never showed up?

If the Jedi escape and tell their tale to the senate, they KNOW the neimodians were lying. They NEEDED to kill the Jedi and make it look like an accident. Just because they tell the senate that the accident happened before the Jedi arrived doesn't change that.

They didn't need to make it look like an accident because they were going to destroy the bodies and claim they never showed up.

[Darth Servo]

Nobody's going to be doing shit Palpy doesn't want them to. Besides if the inspectors were such a certainty Padme had no damn reason to run back home.

Palpy didn't have that kind of power yet. And Amidala wasn't about to wait for inspectors. As far as she knew (which for all we know was propaganda) her people were dying NOW.

I do hope you have a quote backing this idea because I don't recall anything that does.

What? You think the people of Naboo control outerspace? Even though their entire space force seems to be a couple dozen starfighters and some diplomatic vessels?

Rounding them up and shooting them is rather common practice actually.

Uh, last time I heard, it was a war crime. Hardly common practice, except in prisons.

Except that their position is that the Ambassadors never showed up. Not 'the Ambassadors showed up and got killed by our shitty plumbing in an accident no Jedi would ever get caught in'.

Its called a contingency plan incase something goes wrong.

Except that they didn't use them. Instead they sent Battledroids, with blasters, to destroy the corpses.

Like I said, one of many ways to do it.

Then why the fuck did you come up with this dumb-ass theory about killing them in a way that makes it look like an accident if they're going to destroy the corpses and say they never showed up?

In case they DO escape.

They didn't need to make it look like an accident because they were going to destroy the bodies and claim they never showed up.

See above.

[SylasGaunt]

Palpy didn't have that kind of power yet. And Amidala wasn't about to wait for inspectors. As far as she knew (which for all we know was propaganda) her people were dying NOW.

Yet she obviously doesn't find the idea of the trade federation killing her people to be all that unrealistic does she?

What? You think the people of Naboo control outerspace? Even though their entire space force seems to be a couple dozen starfighters and some diplomatic vessels?

Yes. It's not like they typically need to hold it against hostile forces since they're part of the Republic. Plus as I recall Naboo was involved in the Sector government. Now I repeat, where do you get te idea that the space surrounding a planet is analgous with international waters?

Uh, last time I heard, it was a war crime. Hardly common practice, except in prisons.

And? The entire Trade Federation invasion was illegal to begin with.

Its called a contingency plan incase something goes wrong.

Again, their only apperant plan was to gas the Jedi to death then have droids destroy the bodies with blasters. Where are you getting this 'we have to make it look accidental' stuff? I supposed their cruiser getting the shit blown out of it by the hangar guns was supposed to look like an accident to?

Like I said, one of many ways to do it.

And in this case the only one relavent to the conversation.

In case they DO escape.

Except you know for the way they ordered teh droids to open fire on the Jedi when it was apperant that the gas hadn't worked. Kinda throws the 'whoops we vented toxic gas into the room on accident' excuse out the window.

[Darth Servo]

Palpy didn't have that kind of power yet. And Amidala wasn't about to wait for inspectors. As far as she knew (which for all we know was propaganda) her people were dying NOW.

Yet she obviously doesn't find the idea of the trade federation killing her people to be all that unrealistic does she?

Its called "worst case scenario".

What? You think the people of Naboo control outerspace? Even though their entire space force seems to be a couple dozen starfighters and some diplomatic vessels?

Yes. It's not like they typically need to hold it against hostile forces since they're part of the Republic.

And yet the Trade Fed was STILL able to throw up a planetary blockade. Thats real control there.

Plus as I recall Naboo was involved in the Sector government.

All the more reason to suspect someone would come to investigate sooner or later.

Now I repeat, where do you get te idea that the space surrounding a planet is analgous with international waters?

From the fact that the Trade Fed insisted its blockade was legal. Naboo obviously doesn't have jurisdiction over the entire galaxy so its clearly a simple matter of where the boundary is drawn.

Uh, last time I heard, it was a war crime. Hardly common practice, except in prisons.

And? The entire Trade Federation invasion was illegal to begin with.[/quote]Just because some one may be a theif doesn't mean they are about to commit murder.

Again, their only apperant plan was to gas the Jedi to death then have droids destroy the bodies with blasters. Where are you getting this 'we have to make it look accidental' stuff?

Its called common sense. What do you think would happen if they got caught killing the Republic's representatives?

I supposed their cruiser getting the shit blown out of it by the hangar guns was supposed to look like an accident to?

Sure. You can make that look like space debris; like the cruiser ran into pirates or something.

In case they DO escape.

Except you know for the way they ordered teh droids to open fire on the Jedi when it was apperant that the gas hadn't worked. Kinda throws the 'whoops we vented toxic gas into the room on accident' excuse out the window.

Because they knew the gas didn't work. You think Obi-wan and Qui-gonn didn't realize that the gas was NOT an accident since they were in the room when it happened?

[SylasGaunt]

Its called "worst case scenario".

And it's backed up by the ITW where the TF were stuffing people into concentration camps with little in the way of supplies. Quite easy to get lots of people dying that way.

And yet the Trade Fed was STILL able to throw up a planetary blockade. Thats real control there.

And? Cuba still controls its coastal waters, the fact the US could roll in their with a fleet and take them away any time it felt like it doesn't mitigate that fact, why should it do the same here?

All the more reason to suspect someone would come to investigate sooner or later.

If they're involved in the Sector government then I'd say they legally control the space around their planet at the least. And remember there is the matter of the blockade for anyone who comes looking.

From the fact that the Trade Fed insisted its blockade was legal. Naboo obviously doesn't have jurisdiction over the entire galaxy so its clearly a simple matter of where the boundary is drawn.

And that's it? For all we know the Trade Federation blockade was legal because the Naboo owed them money. Or maybe the Republic legal system allows for it, hell they let a lot of shit slide like the Banking Clan using turbolaser armed warships to collect their debts.

Just because some one may be a theif doesn't mean they are about to commit murder.

Unless you happen to be an ambassador for the supreme chancellor of course.

Its called common sense. What do you think would happen if they got caught killing the Republic's representatives?

Caught by who? The cruiser was taken out before they attempted to kill the Jedi so its not like Joe Average Crewman is going to wander in while they're gasing them and run off to tell.

Sure. You can make that look like space debris; like the cruiser ran into pirates or something.

Pirates.. in the middle of a blockade of hundreds, if not thousands of ships? And space debris? Against a shielded warship?

Because they knew the gas didn't work. You think Obi-wan and Qui-gonn didn't realize that the gas was NOT an accident since they were in the room when it happened?

Yet you claimed that they used the gas as a CMA device in case the Jedi escape.

[Darth Servo]

Its called "worst case scenario".

And it's backed up by the ITW where the TF were stuffing people into concentration camps with little in the way of supplies. Quite easy to get lots of people dying that way.

If they wanted to kill them, they wouldn't be giving them any supplies at all. They would just SHOOT them.

And yet the Trade Fed was STILL able to throw up a planetary blockade. Thats real control there.

And? Cuba still controls its coastal waters, the fact the US could roll in their with a fleet and take them away any time it felt like it doesn't mitigate that fact, why should it do the same here?

The rest of the world would be severly criticizing everyone else for it. No one criticized the Trade Fed for the blockade. Such an invasion would most certainly NOT be "legal" by international law. The comparison isn't valid at all.

If they're involved in the Sector government then I'd say they legally control the space around their planet at the least. And remember there is the matter of the blockade for anyone who comes looking.

1) The blockade was legal.
2) You refuse to answer the question of HOW FAR into space the control extends. For all we know, the border between planet controlled space and international space is the edge of the atmosphere.

And that's it? For all we know the Trade Federation blockade was legal because the Naboo owed them money.

Or maybe the Republic legal system allows for it, hell they let a lot of shit slide like the Banking Clan using turbolaser armed warships to collect their debts.

Letting shit slide does NOT mean its actually legal.

And I noticed you completely ignored the point about "how far does Naboo jurisdiction extend into space?"

Just because some one may be a theif doesn't mean they are about to commit murder.

Unless you happen to be an ambassador for the supreme chancellor of course.

Apples and oranges. They NEEDED to get rid of the two Jedi. They did NOT need to exterminate large portions of Naboo's population.

Its called common sense. What do you think would happen if they got caught killing the Republic's representatives?

Caught by who? The cruiser was taken out before they attempted to kill the Jedi so its not like Joe Average Crewman is going to wander in while they're gasing them and run off to tell.

Caught by anyone who might investigate the trouble at Naboo, you idiot.

Sure. You can make that look like space debris; like the cruiser ran into pirates or something.

Pirates.. in the middle of a blockade of hundreds, if not thousands of ships? And space debris? Against a shielded warship?

Pirates who might intercept the cruiser before it even REACHED Naboo. Is this so hard to figure out?

Because they knew the gas didn't work. You think Obi-wan and Qui-gonn didn't realize that the gas was NOT an accident since they were in the room when it happened?

Yet you claimed that they used the gas as a CMA device in case the Jedi escape.

They could have used gas incase someone ELSE discovered the Jedi really did arrive on their ship.

[Darth Servo]

The rest of the world would be severly criticizing everyone else for it.

Edit: that should be "...criticizing the U.S. for it.

[SylasGaunt]

If they wanted to kill them, they wouldn't be giving them any supplies at all. They would just SHOOT them.

And where did I say they want to kill the civvies?

The rest of the world would be severly criticizing everyone else for it. No one criticized the Trade Fed for the blockade. Such an invasion would most certainly NOT be "legal" by international law. The comparison isn't valid at all.

It certainly is since you contend that the space around Naboo isn't theirs because the Trade Federation parked a fleet in it and blockaded the planet. The international criticism thing is just a red herring that has nothing to do with the point under discussion since it has no bearing on the capability of the US to do it. Would we? No but then we aren't the trade federation and the modern world isn't a republic made up of a ridiculous number of alien species.

1) The blockade was legal.

And? We have no idea as to WHY it was legal in the republic legal system.

2) You refuse to answer the question of HOW FAR into space the control extends. For all we know, the border between planet controlled space and international space is the edge of the atmosphere.

And likewise for all we know it covers the entire fucking sector.

Letting shit slide does NOT mean its actually legal.

And do you have any sources saying its illegal?

And I noticed you completely ignored the point about "how far does Naboo jurisdiction extend into space?"

Like you've addressed it? All you've done is say it ends at the atmosphere without backing it up beyond saying 'the blockade was legal'.

Apples and oranges. They NEEDED to get rid of the two Jedi. They did NOT need to exterminate large portions of Naboo's population.

And where did I claim they were doing so as opposed to just shutting them up in a camp with a bit of food and otherwise not giving a shit? And you're diverting the point to the Naboo when this was originally in regards to the Gungan prisoners.

Oh and if you need another reason consider this- gunning down the gungans and not taking any surrenders only encourages them to fight to the death and make the fight cost you more. It's far easier to simply accept their surrenders until you've got them all, THEN shoot them.

And you're right they didn't need to.. but the scary looking Sith lord (who's even scarier looking apprentice is on planet with the Viceroy) gave instructions to wipe the gungans out.

Caught by anyone who might investigate the trouble at Naboo, you idiot.

Again, what the hell are they going to find? If things had gone according to plan there wouldn't have been anything left for anyone to find, as I've repeatedly stated beforehand. If their plan failed to kill the Jedi and someone came along and found them then they'd be fucked anyway and there's still no need for the deception.

Pirates who might intercept the cruiser before it even REACHED Naboo. Is this so hard to figure out?

Pirates.. looting a ship with TWO jedi aboard?

And again if pirates caught the cruiser before it got to Naboo then it fits with the trade federation stor of 'they never showed up' and thus, once again, no fucking reason to make their deaths look like an accident.

They could have used gas incase someone ELSE discovered the Jedi really did arrive on their ship.

Ahem. I said-

Then why the fuck did you come up with this dumb-ass theory about killing them in a way that makes it look like an accident if they're going to destroy the corpses and say they never showed up?

To which you responded with-

In case they DO escape.

And now you're trying to change your argument to someone else finding out the Jedi had been there?