[Predator] Racism on SD.net forums

[Darth Wong]

The thread title's fucked up.

Well, since the OP confuses nationalism with racism, I suppose it could have gone either way: a discussion of whether we are being unfairly nationalist or a discussion of whether he was misusing the term "racism" and if so, what is the correct use of the term. But since the first one didn't seem to generate much discussion, the second one took hold.

[Zero]

Sexual preferences (which was the subject of debate earlier in this thread) won't lead to genocide. Grouping sexual preferences with genocide doesn't seem quite right to me. Are you saying that the two are equally horrific, or just that they fall under the same extremely broad catagory of 'racism'?

You said that unless some form of racism is "equally horrific" to genocide, it should not be classified at all, you worthless little lying cunt.

No, I asked you a question. You still haven't explained why I was wrong with my statement that it was a matter of degree. Obviously, there are different levels of racial discrimination. Besides, you still haven't really shown that basing attraction on race is wrong.

Wong, discriminating in terms of sexuality isn't going to harm anyone.

So you would have absolutely no problem with a society where no one ever racially intermarries, since that particular form of discrimination apparently does not count as discrimination in your eyes?

First, I didn't say that it didn't count as discrimination in my eyes, or if I did, I was wrong. I believe I said only that such discrimination isn't wrong.

Second, that would bother me, because I have a taste for light skinned women, and I'm not white.

[Coyote]

Some people are racist (or "discriminating") without being fully cognizant of what they're doing or what their actions really mean. They may also be confusing a nationality stereotype or a socio-economic class stereotype with a racial group that may or may not be found in those areas as well.

Considering how the "discriminating" in this thread are kinda doing the duck, dodge, bob and weave, it may be a good time for them to step back, think very very carefully and critically with themselves about what, exactly, it is that they expect from themselves and from race and why they expect these things.

There is a difference between being ignorant or noth thinking things through, and being an adherent to "The Bell Curve".

[Justforfun000]

And face facts: it is easier to get over black skin than a fucking penis and you know it.

LOL!!!!!

Yes I would definitely have to agree with this....

[Edi]

Thus, I can see no good reason why a racially discriminatory dating pattern would be immoral, from which it would follow that there is no good reason why expressing this hypothetical judgement would be immoral either.

I can think of one potential reason: the "universality" argument. If everyone had a racial preference, particularly if it's a same-race preference, then this would perpetuate racial inbreeding and prevent intermarriage, which can be argued to have negative long-term consequences for society in general.

It's interesting that many (you could even say most) societies exhibit their worst racism precisely in the area of sexual attraction / partner selection issues. Going more by what I've heard/seen but don't have actual statistical evidence to back it up, it seems that in this area it is the men who are the most racist and likely to see men of other races as intruding on "their" turf and taking "their" women. Not that the same isn't also true of women, but I've not heard of it being as common.

What makes it even more interesting is that interracial dating and marriage is actually desirable simply because the increased genetic diversity in resultant children makes them more resistant to disease and parasites. This is why in the absence of learned/indoctrinated racism you are rather likely to see interracial couples, because a good reproductive pairing is desirable, whether or not the couple actually realizes it consciously.

If anybody is interested in this tangent and has more knowledge of it, please do post.

Now back to the regularly scheduled flamewar this thread has become...

Edi

[Justforfun000]

Not to mention Edi, that interracial mixes make some VERY fine looking figures of humanity..I've seen some guys with very different parents that turned out absolutely gorgeous.

[Predator]

Sexual preferences are not the subject change in question, moron! The subject change is your attempt to change the subject from racial preferences of any kind to outcomes which just happen to favour one race for one reason or another. In short, you're basically using the "quota" argument, complete with percentages.

So, you admit that the racial preferences are a subject change from the original op, which apparently isnt a problem, and claim that my line of argument is a subject change, which is intolerable.

Leaving aside that inconsistency, I dont think that my line of argument actually is a subject change. It was prompted by what Eleas posted:

My own standards of beauty can be fairly interpreted as racist, as my preferences are weighted to visual traits I'm familiar with (mainly what's ridiculously termed "caucasian", "asian" and "persian") or have been conditioned to respond fairly to. Bluntly speaking, some typically african features I fail to consider attractive.

This would be a problem if I wasn't aware of it, but it doesn't really stop me from finding a black girl sexy or attractive so it isn't "debilitating", I guess. In other words, my standards are a bit prejudiced, but I'm working on it, and in the meantime, given sufficient values of pretty, any girl could be lucky enough to get me.

If Eleas's standards of beauty are "a bit prejudice", yet he could still find a black girl sexy, and as he says, some typically african features arent attractive to him, then this situation - especially considering that he states that it can be fairly interpreted as racist - warrants further investigation, especially if we're trying to nail down exactly what constitutes racism.

Most of the time, racism is fairly easy to pin down, 99% of the time you and I would not be in disagreement. I saw an area that seemed confused, and that is what I've focused on.

One last thing on the "quota" issue. You Claim that your position isnt that there must be perfect equality in your attraction to members of different groups, which seems to let myself and Bob off the hook. Where do you draw the line though? If Bob's preferences are weighted say, 60% towards one race far above the others, does that make it racist compared to the 13/11/9 breakdown I proposed? All I'm doing is trying to better understand your definition of racism.

In this case however, your position on racism seems to be that the physical characteristics of a race cannot be tied to that race, even though that's the only real method we have of identifying races. You attempt to tie this to intelligence, as if intelligence is as tightly connected to race as physical appearance is: an argument which is, for the second time, either cretinous or dishonest.

Why do you think I created the NASA example? It wasnt because I got jollies at the thought of some race being intellectually inferior. It was because I wanted another piece of information about your argument regarding racism in order to gather a clearer picture of your position. It's obvious that you either didnt understand the point, or you're purposefully misunderstanding it, evidenced by the below:

Wait, you're saying it would NOT be racist to have a policy of preferring whites over blacks in your retarded hypothetical universe where whites are demonstrably smarter than blacks? It would still be racist; the only difference is that this imaginary universe would hold an actual empirical basis for that racism.

My scenario specifically states that NASA would be preferring more intelligent individuals over less intelligent individuals, NOT that it would have a policy regarding the hiring of black versus white - NASA in my scenario is race blind. I find it hard to believe, given your experience with debating and the use of hypothetical scenarios and analogies and so forth that you honestly believed that I was proposing that NASA in my scenario hire according to race instead of individual attributes, or that, given the lengthy explanation of my position regarding race and intelligence, you could honestly think I was making a claim about the reality of race and intelligence.

I created that scenario to gather another piece of information to solidify my understanding of your argument. If you held the ideal of race blindness and treatment based on merit, you would not conclude that NASA was behaving racistly in discriminating based on intelligence. As I stated, race was not a factor for the organisation or its interviewers, only intelligence was.

To agree that NASA was not discriminating racially would be inconsistent with your views on attraction however. You were consistent with your views on attraction, which gave me a better understanding of your position. Any discrimination based on attributes which happen to be racially correlated, whatever the mechanism or motive, is racist in your definition.

Nothing is being posted right now which is either relevant to that question or its obvious corrollary, what is and isn't racism. And an attempt to apply the argument to hypothetical worlds where racism actually makes sense is a retarded subject change, whether you admit it or not. So once again: are you going to insist on repeating this bullshit until I either lock the thread or ban you? Second time asking.

It is related to what is and isnt racism. It is quite obvious reading everything I've written that it is centered around precisely defining what would and would not be racism in a specific situation which became an important topic of discussion, and one you've happily participated in, after the 9th post.

Alright Mike, you want to shut me up by threatening to ban me, you can have what you want, I'll end my participation in this thread. I wouldnt want to waste any more bandwidth anyway - looking at the hall of shame, I can see how that is reserved for only the most profound and entertaining posts.

[AdmiralKanos]

So, you admit that the racial preferences are a subject change from the original op, which apparently isnt a problem, and claim that my line of argument is a subject change

Admit what, fucktard? You honestly don't understand why "is racial preference racism" is a valid question when discussing the definition of racism, while "would racism be OK if racism was scientifically valid" is not? Or trying to nitpick "racial discrimination" into "what about 13% preference vs 16% preference" nitpickery, as if you can even assign numbers to such a thing?

The characteristics of a race are the only thing which defines that race, moron. There is no distinction between discriminating based on race and discriminating based on the characteristics of that race. This is obvious. I made this point already. You have chosen to ignore it and continue harping on this "race vs characteristics of race" bullshit, complete with your NASA scenario where one of those characteristics is intelligence.

Obviously, in a hypothetical world where every black person was a moron, discriminating on the basis of intelligence would result in anti-black discrimination, and would effectively be racism. However, in this fucked-up universe, racism would actually make sense. What part of this do you not understand, idiot? How many fucking times do I have to repeat myself, only to listen to you once again pretending that I must not have understood the distinction you're making between race and characteristics of race? I get your point, asshole; it's just that I've already pointed out that there is no fucking distinction between the two.

which is intolerable.

Intolerable? If there's one thing I thought I made clear in my little crackdown of the last month or so, it was that I've had enough of people lecturing me. I don't pay for the hardware and bandwidth on this server so that people can tell me what I can and can't do.



Sooner or later, people will get the message. You can argue with me, you can flame me, but if I give you a warning and you choose to ignore it, you're walking on thin ice. If you start telling me what I can and can't do or say, you're history.

And yes, I know you're a fellow liberal. That doesn't change a damned thing; after three years, I've decided that I am no longer putting up with people ignoring warnings or telling me what I'm allowed to do or say on my own board. I make an example of one person, nobody gets it. I make an example of a second person, nobody gets it. Sooner or later, people will get it.