[Spiderman Fanboy] 15 and it shows

[Spiderman Fanboy]

The deaths of alderaan and owen and beru lars never would have happened if there was no rebellion.

Or, you know, they could have just imprisoned them until they were sure they had no connection to the Rebels. It would be a gross violation of their rights, admittedly, but it wouldn't be an atrocity. And you ignored the point that none of them had committed any crime.

As for Alderaan's destruction, maybe, maybe not.

Some heavily populated planet would have been destroyed sooner or later, just so that the Empire could prove it had the capability and willingness to destroy such worlds. And considering Bail Organa had been a vocal critic of Palpatine from early on, I wouldn't rate Alderaan's survival chances.

The Caamasi were pro republic people. Now, even though the Caamasi may have been law abiding citizens, Palpatine killed them all just for having an opinion against the empire. Did the Caamasi obey the Empire or not? If not, Palpatine was just a super paranoid Stalinistic leader.

Even if they did disobey the Empire, how does that justify genocide?

I need to take a break to post my youtube comments, so I'll BRB later.

[lPeregrine]

1-Even the US government has commited many atrocities throughout its history. Every government has done some. I'm not justyfying the Imperial atrocities at all. I'm not even justfying any American atrocities or Allied atrocities during WW2. Just because a nation commits some atrocities, that doesn't make them evil overall. Not nessecarily.

The thing you keep ignoring is that atrocities were Imperial policy. These aren't isolated incidents, they're the Empire's explicit policy of using atrocities to terrify the population into submission. The Empire has a lot more in common with Nazi Germany than any "oops, a rogue soldier killed a few people" incident.

2- At the end of ROTJ, the population of Coruscant, the Imperial population, was cheering, and they tore down the Emperor's statue. How do you know that some of them weren't just happy that the war was over, or maybe some of those guys were just rebels cheering too? Maybe only a fraction of them were sincerely happy that the Empire was gone.

Yeah, the obvious explanation for a bunch of people celebrating and tearing down the tyrant's statue is that the crowd is just happy that the war is over regardless of who won. I'm sure if the Empire had won the battle they'd still be tearing it down just because tearing statues down is fun.

Either way, what reason would Coruscant's citizens have to hate the Empire? High taxes? Lolz! Space Obama! Vote Palpatine in 3012!!!

Oh, I don't know, maybe the fact that they have to live in constant fear of their family/friends/etc being murdered for saying the wrong thing?

[Batman]

The sad thing is that if you just accept the fact that the Empire is evil, thanks to the EU it is ludicrously easy to argue that compared to the New Republic, it would have been the lesser evil. The atrocities the Empire did out of malevolence the New Republic failed to prevent out of incompetence
when they happened under their jurisdiction. The Vong invasion flat out wouldn't have happened (or died a quick and ignoble death) under the Empire.
But no, Spidermoron insists that the Empire wasn't all that bad...while admitting that yes they were. Talk about somebody torpedoeing their own point.

[Batman]

Oh, and on the civilians cheering because the war was over? It wasn't, genius. Five years later what was left of the Empire was still in control of half the galaxy and they were still fighting the Rebel Alliance (except they were now the New Republic).

[Stark]

I think there's definitely a case that the Republic was a terrible organisation with systemic problems and the post-empire <whatever its called> is also a failure of an organisation. If the chatbot was making that kind of argument (as I've suggested about three times) there'd be a discussion happening around WHAT COST SECURITY and where the balance point between freedom and central authority should be and etc.

[Ralin]

Mind you, the idea that the 'Rebels' would justify any sort of Death Star scale atrocities (nevermind BDZ) is pretty absurd, given that I am hard pressed to remember the Alliance actually executing any genocide/planet kililng events themselves. Maybe individual factions within it did, but the Alliance itself would not condone such an action. Especially after Alderaan, as it gave them immense moral authority.

I am (or was anyway) fairly well up on the EU and the only things that spring to mind that paint the Alliance in a bad light are those ex-Alliance extremists who kidnapped Face Loran from the Wraith Squadron books as a kid. It's also explicitly mentioned that they refused to get involved with criminal groups like Black Sun.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Mind you, the idea that the 'Rebels' would justify any sort of Death Star scale atrocities (nevermind BDZ) is pretty absurd, given that I am hard pressed to remember the Alliance actually executing any genocide/planet kililng events themselves. Maybe individual factions within it did, but the Alliance itself would not condone such an action. Especially after Alderaan, as it gave them immense moral authority.

I am (or was anyway) fairly well up on the EU and the only things that spring to mind that paint the Alliance in a bad light are those ex-Alliance extremists who kidnapped Face Loran from the Wraith Squadron books as a kid. It's also explicitly mentioned that they refused to get involved with criminal groups like Black Sun.

In the EU there were civilians on the death star.

[Straha]

There is a world of difference between blowing up a planet with billions of civilians on it, and destroying a weapon of mass destruction that is geared solely towards the murder of innocents as a means of setting precedent through fear that is partially staffed by civilians.

Sort of a night and day thing.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

There is a world of difference between blowing up a planet with billions of civilians on it, and destroying a weapon of mass destruction that is geared solely towards the murder of innocents as a means of setting precedent through fear that is partially staffed by civilians.

Sort of a night and day thing.

I never said that there was anything morally/ethically wrong with the rebels destroying a weapon of mass destruction, ie, the main plot point of ANH.

However, the ends do not justify the means. For example, in a war, the good guys should seek the option that saves the most lives in the long run. The rebels should have rescued any ignorant/innocent civilian contractors (hey, lots of them had no idea what they were involved in), and drafted stormtroopers (the EU mentions them), and any imperials that were willing to surrender/to join them.

http://www.forumforpages.com/facebook/s ... 87596980/0

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one and say that Luke Skywalker should not have destroyed the Death Star. For one, there were millions of people on the first Death Star, many of whom were civilians who just happened to be at the wrong at the very, very wrong time. Luke should not have killed those people, in fact, he should have done everything in his power to save those people.

Perhaps it wasn't Luke's fault at all. Perhaps it was the Alliance for thinking the ONLY solution was destruction. For an organization that touts peace and freedom for all, they are quick to forget all the thousands on the Death Star. Why didn't they try to penetrate the Death Star, convert some of the people there (as if it were a planet), and have a nice uprising? Then they could have arrested all the "bad guys" and blown up the empty Death Star.

If the above is true, then Luke and the Alliance should not have destroyed the Death Star, but rather attempted a takeover of the station and used it against the Empire. Of course, it would only be used like the Death Star II, against capital ships. A sting operation could have eliminated Tarkin and secured the control room in one fell swoop. Driving off Vader would be difficult, but possible, though I doubt the Rebellion could have killed him there.

Before anyone argues that the Rebellion could not have known where the control room was or where Tarkin would be, the Alliance had the technical readouts, the blueprints, of the entire battle station, and Princess Leia had been on the bridge with Tarkin when Alderaan was destroyed. They would have had precise coordinates to launch the operation, and it could have been done with minimal casualties.

[DaveJB]

Oh my god, you're still clinging to this argument?

First of all, you're forgetting the time factor involved. The Death Star didn't take long at all to get into a firing position once it arrived at Yavin, there's no way the Rebels would have gotten enough of the Death Star's million-strong military personnel on their side quickly enough to take over the station. And how would they have gotten onto the station in the first place? This isn't Star Trek, they can't just transport on-board without being detected.

Secondly, odds are any infiltrators would have been immediately captured, sent to an interrogation room, and then the Rebels' main plan of attack would have been uncovered, which would probably have led to Tarkin and/or Vader massively increasing the defences around the exhaust port.

Thirdly... well, I'll let Kevin Smith illustrate my argument for me (they're mostly talking about the DS2, but their reasoning would also apply to the DS1 if there were civilians on-board): Link

[atg]

Perhaps it wasn't Luke's fault at all. Perhaps it was the Alliance for thinking the ONLY solution was destruction. For an organization that touts peace and freedom for all, they are quick to forget all the thousands on the Death Star. Why didn't they try to penetrate the Death Star, convert some of the people there (as if it were a planet), and have a nice uprising? Then they could have arrested all the "bad guys" and blown up the empty Death Star.

If the above is true, then Luke and the Alliance should not have destroyed the Death Star, but rather attempted a takeover of the station and used it against the Empire. Of course, it would only be used like the Death Star II, against capital ships. A sting operation could have eliminated Tarkin and secured the control room in one fell swoop. Driving off Vader would be difficult, but possible, though I doubt the Rebellion could have killed him there.

Before anyone argues that the Rebellion could not have known where the control room was or where Tarkin would be, the Alliance had the technical readouts, the blueprints, of the entire battle station, and Princess Leia had been on the bridge with Tarkin when Alderaan was destroyed. They would have had precise coordinates to launch the operation, and it could have been done with minimal casualties.

Crap guys quick! We need to head back to 1941 and tell the US navy that they should attempt to board and capture the IJN's aircraft carriers and battleships rather than just sinking them! All the guns/planes/torps/internal security they'd be firing clearly wouldn't actually stop it from happening! All the Admiral's of the past were wrong!

[AniThyng]

The comedy writes itself, doesn't it.

I bet that if the rebels incited Imperial troops/ships to defect - as they actually have done - and the defectors were then killed by loyal troops, we'd be told that it was immoral to have incited the defections!

Oh but why, if the Empire was so evil, don't the good people in the fleet do something about it? They didn't, therefore the Empire is not-evil, right? I got lost somewhere along the way, but is there any particular reason that we cannot posit that the military leadership of a facist, speciest regime would not be loyal to the very power structure that enables it?

[Stark]

Guys he outed himself in the venting thread. No more need to engage with Mr Ends Dnt Justify Means Unless It Is Convenient.

[Ahriman238]

I think there's definitely a case that the Republic was a terrible organisation with systemic problems and the post-empire <whatever its called> is also a failure of an organisation. If the chatbot was making that kind of argument (as I've suggested about three times) there'd be a discussion happening around WHAT COST SECURITY and where the balance point between freedom and central authority should be and etc.

Hells, may as well try to salvage something from the thread. Perhaps we can demonstrate effective debating techniques.

I assert that the Old Republic was a blind, drunk and crippled failure of a government, held together through sheer force of habit and the tireless efforts of the Jedi sticking their thumbs into various holes. The Empire, though horrendous in it's deeds, was still a slight improvement in that it enforce of a system of laws that applied to everyone who wasn't Palpatine or Vader, or acting under their direct orders. In sharp contrast to the Republic, whose Senate was little more than a debate society and reacted to blatantly illegal acts by trying to compromise with the law-breakers.

As A Canon film evidence, I submit that although the Confederacy was created as a cynical ruse, it had little difficulty finding support. But the truly damning evidence is the events surrounding the invasion of Naboo in Phantom Menace. The Trade Federation, vexed by pirates, applied to expand their droid security force into an army. The Senate Committee investigating their need, though reluctant to give the Trade Federation that much power, decided to allow it in exchange for some quid pro quo, a new tax on the trade routes. The Trade Federation takes the deal, then blockades Naboo to protest the tax they agreed to pay. The Chancellor sends two Jedi to mediate a dispute that should not exist. We all know how that went.

So the two Jedi return after some time, with the Queen of Naboo in tow and say that in place of negotiating, the Trade Federation tried to kill them, and launched a military invasion of Naboo herding all of it's people into ominous camps. The Chancellor is sympathetic, but when the TF delegate objects, asks her to defer her motion (a plea for military aid) so a bipartisan committee can discuss what to do.

We know the Chancellor was hamstrung by a corruption scandal, which Palpatine instigated at the same time he assassinated the Trade Federation Board, allowing his pawn Nute Gunray ascendance, raised the droid army and instituted the tax that would serve as a pretext. Busy Man. In any case, the point is that no sane or effective government would have let things get so far out of hand in the first place.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I, for one, do not base my opinions about "who are the good guys" and "who's the bad guys", on popular culture, the opinions of the fans, or even what the book/movie itself tells me who are the good guys or the bad guys. I interpret a storyline in a very non-biased way. I interpret it however I view the story and the events that happen within it.

Oh, really? Well, even if we're just looking at the films, do you know why most people consider the Rebels to be the good guys and the Empire to be the bad ones? It's because the Empire commits atrocities against its own people, from small-scale ones like the executions of Owen and Beru and the Jawas when none of them were guilty of any crime, to bigger ones like destroying Alderaan because a couple of high-profile citizens supported the Rebels, and Tarkin thought it would be more impressive than blowing up Dantooine. The worst thing the Rebels do is get a bunch of Ewoks killed while fighting for them in the Battle of Endor, and even that's preferable to all the Ewoks being wiped out when the Sanctuary Moon was inevitably destroyed by the DS2's test firing (disregarding the Endor Holocaust argument for the moment).

The deaths of alderaan and owen and beru lars never would have happened if there was no rebellion.

Or, you know, they could have just imprisoned them until they were sure they had no connection to the Rebels. It would be a gross violation of their rights, admittedly, but it wouldn't be an atrocity. And you ignored the point that none of them had committed any crime.


While I'm not justyfying what the Empire did to Owen and Beru Lars, I'm trying to say that you should just put their misdeeds into context. The rebels had the plans to blow up the death star, which killed over a million people! The rebels were endangering the lives of over A MILLION PEOPLE. The droids were a threat to the lives of OVER A MILLION PEOPLE. One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.

Anyways, yes, there were other ways to get the droids back without killing Luke's aunt and uncle, such as either bribing them, paying them, or maybe just plain taking it from them, without killing them. However, just because the Empire did some misdeeds in an attempt to save a million of their own men, that does not make them a bad organization at all.

And, besides, that very long copied-and-pasted article that I quoted before? This Imperial atrocity (killing owen and beru lars) NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THERE WAS NO REBELLION TRYING TO KILL A MILLION PEOPLE. IT WAS PROVOKED BY THE REBELS.

Despite the fact that what happened to owen and beru lars was evil, that does not justify a rebellion. That would be akin to saying that the US government needed to be overthrown just because they imprisoned innocent civilians (japanese american internment camps during ww2) to a just to stop another incident like pearl harbor (where a lot of their soldiers died) from happening again.

Now, did the US take it overboard and go too far by putting thousands of Japanese Americans in interment camps? Yes. Was it wrong to take away their rights and freedoms by jailing them out of paranoia? Yes. Absolutley.

But does that justify the Japanese Empire during ww2 just because the allies did misdeeds against innocent civilians? NO ABOSOLUTLEY NOT!!!!

[Metahive]

And, besides, that very long copied-and-pasted article that I quoted before? This Imperial atrocity (killing owen and beru lars) NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THERE WAS NO REBELLION TRYING TO KILL A MILLION PEOPLE. IT WAS PROVOKED BY THE REBELS.

So the Rebels forced the stormtroopers to burn Owen and Beru alive? The Rebels made Tarkin destroy Alderaan? They made Palpatine enslave the Wookies? They made him burn Camaas to a crisp?

How?

How could they have forced their hands, with that small and inferior military of theirs?

You will answer this question, you will not sidetrack or evade it because, goddammit, I'm ready to involve the mods in this if you do. I've had fucking enough of your asshattery.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

And, besides, that very long copied-and-pasted article that I quoted before? This Imperial atrocity (killing owen and beru lars) NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THERE WAS NO REBELLION TRYING TO KILL A MILLION PEOPLE. IT WAS PROVOKED BY THE REBELS.

So the Rebels forced the stormtroopers to burn Owen and Beru alive? The Rebels made Tarkin destroy Alderaan? They made Palpatine enslave the Wookies? They made him burn Camaas to a crisp?

How?

How could they have forced their hands, with that small and inferior military of theirs?

You will answer this question, you will not sidetrack or evade it because, goddammit, I'm ready to involve the mods in this if you do. I've had fucking enough of your asshattery.

Yes and no. If there was no rebellion there never would have been owen and beru lars being killed by stormtroopers. THE DROIDS HAD THE PLANS THAT ENDANGERED A MILLION PEOPLE!! This would be akin to an alternate history cold war scenario where America and/or Russia do brutality to their civilians in an affect to stop the Cuban Missile Crisis and to save millions of lives.

But if the citizens had just been law abiding citizens, Caamas would have survived. If there were no rebels and everybody was law abiding, the wookies never would've been enslaved for labor on the death star, and Alderaaan never would've been destroyed to spite Princess leia and to interrogate her.

[Metahive]

You know, and if Palpatine hadn't been a murderous maniac, there wouldn't have been a rebellion in the first place. Ever thought that?

Why are you so fucking thick?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

You know, and if Palpatine hadn't been a murderous maniac, there wouldn't have been a rebellion in the first place. Ever thought that?

Why are you so fucking thick?

Because I like to see both sides of the issue/both factions in a war's faults, strengths, and weaknenesses. Not to mention my real world analogies/historical eaxmples too. lolz!!!!

Most people aren't directly responding to what I say directly, instead they just either make generalizations, ad hominem attacks, or they ignore/disregard the morality/ideas of my direct points.

And if the rebels hadn't existed, the Empire wouldn't have been murderous maniacs that killed owen and beru lars, too? Or destroyed Aldearaan. Or use wookie slaves to built the death star!!!

[DaveJB]

The destruction of Caamas and the Ghorman Massacre happened before the Rebel Alliance even existed, dumbfuck.

[Metahive]

You know, and if Palpatine hadn't been a murderous maniac, there wouldn't have been a rebellion in the first place. Ever thought that?

Why are you so fucking thick?

Because I like to see both sides of the issue/both factions in a war's faults, strengths, and weaknenesses. Not to mention my real world analogies/historical eaxmples too. lolz!!!!

Most people aren't directly responding to what I say directly, instead they just either make generalizations, ad hominem attacks, or they ignore/disregard the morality/ideas of my direct points.

And if the rebels hadn't existed, the Empire wouldn't have been murderous maniacs that killed owen and beru lars, too? Or destroyed Aldearaan. Or use wookie slaves to built the death star!!!

Fuck off, troll

Fuck off, or I'll tell gooby to kill you again.

Gooby pls!

[Stark]

Why can't everyone just follow the oppressive laws and do what the evil authority says wonders the troll who dared the board to ban him. Why didn't everyone just roll with the 'kill trillions so I can eat your souls' plan and be docile citizens, he struggles to understand.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

The destruction of Caamas and the Ghorman Massacre happened before the Rebel Alliance even existed, dumbfuck.

Ahh, but most everyday SW fans aren't geeky enough to read the EU. Most have no idea about the EU imperial atrocities.

Second of all, you're admitting that I was right about, at least, owen and beru lars being provoked by the rebels, am i right, BITCH??????

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Why can't everyone just follow the oppressive laws and do what the evil authority says wonders the troll who dared the board to ban him. Why didn't everyone just roll with the 'kill trillions so I can eat your souls' plan and be docile citizens, he struggles to understand.

Palpatine didn't want to kill TRILLIONS or to eat their souls.

Go take your meds or something. Or go talk to your mom, at least.

[Stark]

But what about your New Years resolution?