And how exactly do you define a "binge drinker" and what are the clear guidelines a school should use to differentiate between the two? If you suggest that a school should expel someone who is caught on repeated drinking offenses then I would agree with you. But I see no way to handle this on a first offense basis.Darth Servo wrote:Kernel, there IS a difference between drinking and binge drinking. Expelling a student for the latter does not mean expelling him for the former.
[ryan8723] Rat bastard frat boy hits and kills grad student
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Of course not, since drinking goes back to the beginning of recorded history. But having popular social clubs like Fraternities is clearly a contributor to the problem.The Kernel wrote:It shows quite clearly that the frats are not the cause of the problem.
There are these things called "buddies" telling you, "There's going to be this great party this weekend. It will be fun. Everyone else will be there"What pressure? What possible pressure is there to attend a frat party in the first place? Frat parties are not mandatory parts of the college curriculum.
There won't be these popular clubs requiring it for initiation? Haven't you even BEEN to college?And how is eliminating frats supposed to lessen the pressure to drink in college?
See my last post.And that will solve what? You think you will get lower numbers of people drinking? What exactly is the goal here?
OK, I misread the point.What the fuck does this have to do with what I said? I said that alcohol wasn't even mentioned in the article and you respond with this total red herring?
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Lets see. BAC. Whether or not he is observed chugging the beer. How many empty cans/bottles he has with him.The Kernel wrote:And how exactly do you define a "binge drinker" and what are the clear guidelines a school should use to differentiate between the two? If you suggest that a school should expel someone who is caught on repeated drinking offenses then I would agree with you. But I see no way to handle this on a first offense basis.
So difficult.
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I see, so in other words, a single offense is enough to get someone expelled. You don't see the problem with this? I'm all for expelling people who have repeated alcohol abuse problems, but you want to expell for a single instance of someone drinking a little bit more than they should of? Does the fact that being drunk can impair judgement and make you drink more (especially for newbies) add into this for you at all?Darth Servo wrote: Lets see. BAC. Whether or not he is observed chugging the beer. How many empty cans/bottles he has with him.
So difficult.
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Am I partially footing the bill for them to do this, though?The Kernel wrote:Yeah, because every other organized party by this age group is responsible about drugs and alcohol among partygoers. Sure.Rogue 9 wrote:That's ridiculous and you know it. The fraternities are responsible for what goes on at their functions. They let illegal drugs into the party, let an underage child drink alcohol, and they let him drive away afterwards. This isn't the first time, either; it's just the worst that's come of many such instances. The fraternities are directly culpable here; the whole of American society is not.
No, but I think that the university doesn't need to encourage such activity.How so? You think kids will suddenly stop organizing for the purposes of drinking and doing drugs if you get rid of the frats?And as the social fraternity system is needlessly destructive
I agree in principle. Which is why when they remove someone's right to life, I see a problem.People who are members enjoy them, that's enough of a contructive purpose for most things to remain legal unless they are grossly infringing on the rights of others.while serving no discernible constructive purpose,
Boot them off campus and they'll just form an off campus frat. It's not going to solve the problem as you see it.I fail to see why they should be allowed to continue wrecking this campus. They have consistently broken the rules this semester; other schools have removed fraternities entirely for less than this.
They might, but they wouldn't be the university's responsibility at that point. Nadia's death aside, the university is more than likely up for liability in a wrongful death suit, and we the tuition-paying students have got to foot the bill for that too.
Not at all. I think the case was ridiculous; I was simply demonstrating precedent.And you think this was appropriate?Tennessee State at Knoxville, for instance, booted out a fraternity a couple years ago because of some of their members' choices in Halloween costume;
He was drunk. You forget, I'm right here and knew both parties, albeit not very well, as well as the behavior of this particular fraternity chapter. Everything I know about Harrison points to him being the stereotypical rich brat with lots of money to blow; I know he drank a lot and drugs would not surprise me. (He was in the school paper once before, that time for a story about how he and his similarly rich-brat type roommate blew $7,000 on outfitting their dorm room without a second thought.) There is no way he went to a Lambda Chi party without getting well on the way to hammered. Nobody goes to one of their parties without getting completely hammered; the beer flows like water. People who were at the party said that Harrison was drunk off his ass by the time he left. Granted, that's hearsay, but I'd think they'd know what they were talking about. Further, he was coming from a frat party when he hit someone, just drove away, and claims to not remember it? Do you think someone who was not drunk could even think he could get away with claiming to not remember a thing about it when it just happened the night before?It says he stopped by a frat party briefly, I don't see how that is a reflection of the fraternity. It doesn't even say if he drank there or not. Hell, it doesn't even say if he was drunk when he got into the accident.here, someone actually died. There is more than enough grounds here. The fraternity was already on probation for the drinking at the conference anyway.
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The studies on this matter are not conclusive. Fraternity members have higher levels of binge drinking, but then most of them did before they even joined a frat, dating back to high school. It's more likely that frats simply attract these kinds of people rather than create them.Darth Servo wrote:Of course not, since drinking goes back to the beginning of recorded history. But having popular social clubs like Fraternities is clearly a contributor to the problem.
Right, and getting rid of frats is going to stop this.There are these things called "buddies" telling you, "There's going to be this great party this weekend. It will be fun. Everyone else will be there"
Come on, have you been to college? Binge drinking is big in college because it has been heavily romanticized by popular culture, not because of a bunch of social clubs.
If you aren't interested in binge drinking in the first place, why would you join a frat?There won't be these popular clubs requiring it for initiation? Haven't you even BEEN to college?
No, I want specifics. Are you trying to reduce the amount of college alcohol consumption by eliminating frats?See my last post.
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I see college as a place for intelligent people. Not stupid people.The Kernel wrote:I see, so in other words, a single offense is enough to get someone expelled. You don't see the problem with this? I'm all for expelling people who have repeated alcohol abuse problems, but you want to expell for a single instance of someone drinking a little bit more than they should of? Does the fact that being drunk can impair judgement and make you drink more (especially for newbies) add into this for you at all?
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For the record, the frat brothers in question at UT were five (white) guys from Jackson, Tennessee, known as the Jackson 5. You can guess what the costumes were, I think. I contend that suspension of the students for that was grossly inappropriate, but it does demonstrate how much of a hair trigger universities have for some issues with frats, but not others.Darth Servo wrote:Depends on what the costumes were.The Kernel wrote:And you think this was appropriate?Rogue 9 wrote:Tennessee State at Knoxville, for instance, booted out a fraternity a couple years ago because of some of their members' choices in Halloween costume;
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So you would be perfectly fine with off campus frats like many schools have?Rogue 9 wrote: Am I partially footing the bill for them to do this, though?
Unless the sole goal of fraternities is to promote drinking, then I don't see how this is much of a point. And once again, you would be fine with them as long as they were off campus and self suported?No, but I think that the university doesn't need to encourage such activity.
Then I suggest you are leading the wrong crusade. Alcohol is the cause of these problems, not fraternities.I agree in principle. Which is why when they remove someone's right to life, I see a problem.
My university was also liable when a kid threw himself out of a fourth story dormroom when he was drunk. I doubt that means we should remove the dorms and force kids off campus to remove liability.They might, but they wouldn't be the university's responsibility at that point. Nadia's death aside, the university is more than likely up for liability in a wrongful death suit, and we the tuition-paying students have got to foot the bill for that too.
Different issue. Obviously schools have the right to remove frats, the question is do they have a moral obligation to do so.Not at all. I think the case was ridiculous; I was simply demonstrating precedent.
Even if you are right though, he made the deicision to get in a car after getting smashed. The fault is his, not anyone elses.He was drunk. You forget, I'm right here and knew both parties, albeit not very well, as well as the behavior of this particular fraternity chapter. Everything I know about Harrison points to him being the stereotypical rich brat with lots of money to blow; I know he drank a lot and drugs would not surprise me. (He was in the school paper once before, that time for a story about how he and his similarly rich-brat type roommate blew $7,000 on outfitting their dorm room without a second thought.) There is no way he went to a Lambda Chi party without getting well on the way to hammered. Nobody goes to one of their parties without getting completely hammered; the beer flows like water. People who were at the party said that Harrison was drunk off his ass by the time he left. Granted, that's hearsay, but I'd think they'd know what they were talking about. Further, he was coming from a frat party when he hit someone, just drove away, and claims to not remember it? Do you think someone who was not drunk could even think he could get away with claiming to not remember a thing about it when it just happened the night before?
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Fey, Frats encourage binge drinking. How can they NOT be a contributor to the problem?
Your argument is like saying that because there are other sources of cocaine in the world, we shouldn't crack down on Columbia.
Nice black and white fallacy. So it either eliminates the problem completely or doesn't do jack? Roll your eyes back into your head.Right, and getting rid of frats is going to stop this. Rolling Eyes
And that popular culture INCLUDES the Fraternities.Come on, have you been to college? Binge drinking is big in college because it has been heavily romanticized by popular culture, not because of a bunch of social clubs.
Your argument is like saying that because there are other sources of cocaine in the world, we shouldn't crack down on Columbia.
Um, becasue all your FRIENDS joined it? Because your old man kept romanticizing about his glory days in old Sigma Chi or what ever? Because its a family tradition?[/quote]If you aren't interested in binge drinking in the first place, why would you join a frat?
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Believe it or not, intelligent people make mistakes, especially if they have little experience. It is really easy to claim you should just toss them out, but it's completely unwarranted.Darth Servo wrote:I see college as a place for intelligent people. Not stupid people.The Kernel wrote:I see, so in other words, a single offense is enough to get someone expelled. You don't see the problem with this? I'm all for expelling people who have repeated alcohol abuse problems, but you want to expell for a single instance of someone drinking a little bit more than they should of? Does the fact that being drunk can impair judgement and make you drink more (especially for newbies) add into this for you at all?
I'll give you an example--I went to boarding school for 10-12 grade and we had a strict policy about drinking, drugs, etc. However, every time someone violated the rules, they were given a review and no rules were set in stone. If someone was just getting a little tipsy on a friday night, they got probation. A kid who got caught smashed out of his mind and needed a stomach pump on the first Wenesday night of the year got immediately expelled. See the difference?
Everyone should at least get a second chance unless it is clear that there is no hope for them.
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Excuse me? I'm Kernel, Fey is my fiancee.Darth Servo wrote:Fey, Frats encourage binge drinking. How can they NOT be a contributor to the problem?
I never said that some reform would be out of order. I just don't think that shutting down the frats would be constructive.Nice black and white fallacy. So it either eliminates the problem completely or doesn't do jack? Roll your eyes back into your head.
Sure, and you shut them down and all you will get is a functional equivalent. You want to solve the problem? Work on making colleges attractive as institutions of higher learning rather than for parties.And that popular culture INCLUDES the Fraternities.
If you mean to solve the problem by nuking Columbia, then you would be correct.Your argument is like saying that because there are other sources of cocaine in the world, we shouldn't crack down on Columbia.
Somehow I have a hard time imagining someone who has frat friends, a father that was in a frat and a family that supports it being against organized drinking.Um, becasue all your FRIENDS joined it? Because your old man kept romanticizing about his glory days in old Sigma Chi or what ever? Because its a family tradition?
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Yes, and I already outlined three ways of telling HOW MUCH someone had drunk.The Kernel wrote:Believe it or not, intelligent people make mistakes, especially if they have little experience. It is really easy to claim you should just toss them out, but it's completely unwarranted.Darth Servo wrote:I see college as a place for intelligent people. Not stupid people.
I'll give you an example--I went to boarding school for 10-12 grade and we had a strict policy about drinking, drugs, etc. However, every time someone violated the rules, they were given a review and no rules were set in stone. If someone was just getting a little tipsy on a friday night, they got probation. A kid who got caught smashed out of his mind and needed a stomach pump on the first Wenesday night of the year got immediately expelled. See the difference?
Everyone should at least get a second chance unless it is clear that there is no hope for them.
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And I already told you that those shouldn't be the sole factors making a determination. A students commitment to school, determination not to become a chronic binge drinker and past academic record must be considered.Darth Servo wrote: Yes, and I already outlined three ways of telling HOW MUCH someone had drunk.
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And your reasons were strawmen. Trying to compare binge drinking to "drinking a little more than they should have"?The Kernel wrote:And I already told you that those shouldn't be the sole factors making a determination. A students commitment to school, determination not to become a chronic binge drinker and past academic record must be considered.Darth Servo wrote: Yes, and I already outlined three ways of telling HOW MUCH someone had drunk.
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Similarly for the record, I'm not saying to expel fraternity members either. I'm saying to punish Harrison Yonts, the individuals responsible for giving him alcohol as a minor, and to disband the fraternity but not further punish it's members since it has twice this year demonstrated a complete inability to police itself as it is supposed to do.
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Agreed on the first two points, although I'd have to see the rest of the history of this particular frat to make a determination about the third point. Really it would depend on how comfortable I was as Dean with the leadership of the particular frat and their willingness to change.Rogue 9 wrote:Similarly for the record, I'm not saying to expel fraternity members either. I'm saying to punish Harrison Yonts, the individuals responsible for giving him alcohol as a minor, and to disband the fraternity but not further punish it's members since it has twice this year demonstrated a complete inability to police itself as it is supposed to do.
And for the record, I'm all for cracking down on hazing rituals and (more importantly) promoting alcohol awareness among freshman. The cast majority of deaths from alcohol occur with freshman who don't have the experience neccessary to engage in responsible drinking.
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Sorry. Brain fart. Care to answer the question now?The Kernel wrote:Excuse me? I'm Kernel, Fey is my fiancee.Darth Servo wrote:Fey, Frats encourage binge drinking. How can they NOT be a contributor to the problem?
Maybe I missed something but who ever said shut down all the frats as opposed to the known alcohol abuse ones like the one in this case?I never said that some reform would be out of order. I just don't think that shutting down the frats would be constructive.
And one way to do that is get the party frats OFF CAMPUS--NOT associate them with the university.Sure, and you shut them down and all you will get is a functional equivalent. You want to solve the problem? Work on making colleges attractive as institutions of higher learning rather than for parties.
WTF? You think we want to KILL binge drinking frat members?If you mean to solve the problem by nuking Columbia, then you would be correct.
There you go again with your oversimplified argument that "organized drinking" constitutes binge drinking.Somehow I have a hard time imagining someone who has frat friends, a father that was in a frat and a family that supports it being against organized drinking.
Besides, your lack of imagination is not an argument.
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Actually it isn't the amount of alcohol consumed in one sitting that makes a person an alcoholic. You can have people that are caught binge drinking that aren't a risk for future episodes and those that are chronic binge drinkers. The importance is reconizing the distinction between the two which is the point I was making.Darth Servo wrote: And your reasons were strawmen. Trying to compare binge drinking to "drinking a little more than they should have"?
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They aren't part of the cause, merely a venue for those that choose to binge drink.Darth Servo wrote: Sorry. Brain fart. Care to answer the question now?
Mike was suggesting it as a sort of "nuclear option" along with expelling all students caught binge drinking.Maybe I missed something but who ever said shut down all the frats as opposed to the known alcohol abuse ones like the one in this case?
*sigh* I suppose I don't really care if the fraternities are on campus or off campus as I doubt it would make any difference.And one way to do that is get the party frats OFF CAMPUS--NOT associate them with the university.
WTF? You think we want to KILL binge drinking frat members?
Figure of speech maybe?
I suppose it doesn't necessarily, but in college? Are you kidding?There you go again with your oversimplified argument that "organized drinking" constitutes binge drinking.
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So you admit they DO contribute to the problem?
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Of course they contribute, they just aren't the cause. And furthermore, there are plenty of ways to fix the situation without outright banning of the fraternities from doing any University affiliations. Hell, why not run a "clean" Fraternity program or make a deal with the school to eliminate hazing rituals and necessitate alcohol awareness classes in exchange for school support? Better to work within the system thus not encouraging a backlash that can lead to a solution that is worse than the original problem.Darth Servo wrote:So you admit they DO contribute to the problem?
Well, then they should do so. Would certainly make it easier for me to get into a college if they were all half empty.The Kernel wrote:Technically most schools already have a zero tollerance policy for underage drinking, but very seldom are such rules enforced. Know why? Because they'd have to expel half the student body in most cases.
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Why not?The Kernel wrote:Yeah, that's awfully realistic.Darth Wong wrote:This isn't the Prohibition argument. We're not talking about encouraging criminal activity by banning it in courts of law. The university can freely act to do whatever they feel is necessary to discourage binge drinking and dissociate it from the university without the kind of negative consequences that were associated with Prohibition, so the "they will do it anyway" argument doesn't fly. Expel any students caught binge drinking, and ban fraternities and any other groups encouraging binge drinking from associating themselves with the university in any way.
Got any evidence to support your claim that half the student body in a typical university is composed of binge drinkers?Technically most schools already have a zero tollerance policy for underage drinking, but very seldom are such rules enforced. Know why? Because they'd have to expel half the student body in most cases.
The kind of people who go to university to party are not interested in actually learning anything.The vast majority of colleges have been looking the other way for years, how exactly do you realistically expect schools to take on such draconian practices which will do little besides reduce the numbers of people willing to apply?
Yes they are.And to anticipate your next move, I submit that kids that are caught binge drinking are not necessarily negative contributors to the student body, particularly if they aren't repeat offenders.
And why do you believe that maximizing attendance is the goal? You know what else lowers attendance? Tough entrance requirements. Let's lower those too!Your solution solves nothing except to lower attendence.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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- Fucking Awesome
- Posts: 13834
- Joined: 2002-07-04 03:21pm
That's not necessarily true. I know a number of college students who party frequently and are excellent students.The kind of people who go to university to party are not interested in actually learning anything.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.