[Leonardo Fibonacci] So when do they get a clue?

[Setzer]

Let's assume that the Empire is taking a casual stance on conquering the Alpha Quadrant. They're dragging the conquest out for a long time and inflating the power of their enemies to justify their repressive measures at home, and it doesn't look like the AQ will be conquered anytime soon.

So, how long until the ST galaxy adjusts? How many times will the Klingons get butchered by Stormtroopers and ATATs before they realize knives aren't viable weapons? How many redshirts will have to die from shrapnel bursts before they realize red PJs aren't useful as armor? In short, when do they get a clue and try to close the gaping holes in their arsenal?

[Ender]

War tends to adapt your thinking very rapidly. More to the point, the sheer wealth that being part of the respective SW governments gives to the individual will lead to a great deal of aggressive adoption by the masses.

[The Romulan Republic]

You can look at the actual wars the Trek galaxy has fought to get some idea. I think they will learn, but it will take a long, long time.

For example, after the Q-induced encounter with the Borg, the Federation began to build serious warships. I don't think we've seen any children on warships since the Enterprise D went down, they now take quite a pounding without the warp cores going up. Even their ground arsenal, while still badly sucking, has begun to improve (wasn't their a grenade launcher used in Insurection? Plus that stupid little dune buggy in Nemisis).

However, they still haven't learned to armor their troops, and I doubt the Klingons will ever learn unless the cult of the warrior is permanently removed from their society. Or maybe they won't change until their enemies get better. Right now, the Klingons actually seem to be getting by using melee tactics. Probably because thier aren't a lot of ground battles, shipboard battles tend to take place in fairly close quarters, and none of their enemies use machine guns or artillery anyway.

[Samuel]

Let's assume that the Empire is taking a casual stance on conquering the Alpha Quadrant. They're dragging the conquest out for a long time and inflating the power of their enemies to justify their repressive measures at home, and it doesn't look like the AQ will be conquered anytime soon.

So, how long until the ST galaxy adjusts? How many times will the Klingons get butchered by Stormtroopers and ATATs before they realize knives aren't viable weapons? How many redshirts will have to die from shrapnel bursts before they realize red PJs aren't useful as armor? In short, when do they get a clue and try to close the gaping holes in their arsenal?

Faster as the Empire will lend them military advisors so that it doesn't look so pathetic gunning down men in PJs.

[Patrick Degan]

Only at the end will they understand.

[FOG3]

This would be like... ah screw. It's like Napolean trying to take on WW1 Germany's fortified line, and let's just not talk about the Naval half of things.

Even if they have a Napolean, I don't see the changes you indicate happening. Investing in expensive body armor, that's honestly not going to help matters much? Sorry, where's the return on investment? Investing production resources in building ground vehicles, when there's no way they can win the critical naval action and they'd just be moving targets anyway due to firepower/protection differences anyway? What you want them to play the oodles of traps and vastly outnumbering the Stormtroopers game the Ewoks did, so the Empire says screw it and starts being more liberal in its use of artillery instead of trying to play nice?

If anything I see a attempt on their part to maximize the effectiveness of what are effectively Space-Coffins by shifting resources to easy to produce warp capable guided missiles in the concept of the stupid that was that one torpedo in Voyager. That demands a degree of fanaticism the Empire is simply not going to inspire in the Alpha Quadrant Powers. Even areas like the Corporate Sector Authority that are labelled as repressive, are shown to have a high degree of freedom.

I honestly would expect the Empire to simply assign a proxy like the Corporate Sector Authority to develop the AQ if they seriously found the "wormhole." When the Star Wars equivalent of Coast Guard cutters have a good chance of being able to fight off the Alpha Quadrant's attempts at coordinated military strikes with front line units, the Corporate Sector Authority could be sent in there, take their time exploiting the Alpha Quadrant's resources, and have minimal issues.

---

In order to get what you're talking about would require a power closer to their level. For instance some small regional power that has spent years obtaining examples of and studying the technology of the various empires, and now has fleets of highly efficient and well designed ships with well disciplined and trained crews. Probably better as something just outside the normal sphere of AQ influence who have been gathering their resources.

Either way it would now be launching coordinated strikes designed to cripple the AQ powers, but due to insufficient resources be unable to properly exploit their victories in the conventional sense. A problem they're working on while using surgical strikes to take their enemies apart. Naturally intelligent measures to prevent their ships being tracked and being thorough in operations would at the very least slow the AQ's ability to figure out the origin of the attacks, and take the fight to the regional power's front door. Ideally for the regional power it would be able to cripple and tie up enough of the AQ's resources, by the time they did figure out who they were they'd be in no shape to launch a effective assault.

Just for the entertainment value I dub this theoretical power, Sparta.

[Samuel]

Sparta (historical) wouldn't work. You need a "good" evil empire- a group that embodies decent efficiency so that it can actually conquer territory and plan effectively.

Rather than pulling a group out of our asses, a civil war would work better.

[Baffalo]

The thing that no one really counts on in war is luck, since it can be a fickle thing. We've looked at scenarios where the Federation tries to capture both intact and damaged Imperial warships, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Nothing is impossible, just highly, highly unlikely. There could've been an accident where the bridge of the ship was completely destroyed and the engines knocked out, leaving the ship vulnerable. That's a very unlikely scenario, but there's always the possibility.

And don't discount the brilliance of a genius. Thrawn himself, in the opening of the first book in the series, was outnumbered and outgunned. Yet he still wins. I know that the Federation lacks the weaponry necessary to take out a ship without a fleet, but if the Empire is taking its time, they might not be sending their best and brightest. They might even stage a victory for the Federation, to use as propaganda back home to make it look like the Federation fired the first shot.

So, with that in mind, we know the Federation now has something to work with that most scenarios don't give them: time. And the Empire gives them something else, and that's a goal for their technology. It's one thing to create a theory about how something works, it's another to know that the technology exists. A few scans from any battle survivors would go a long way towards trying to either reproduce or create a counter for a weapon.

The first few battles, both on the ground and in space, will go horrible for the Federation. Any survivors will be traumatized and low on morale, but they'll have experience. All of these things will start to accumulate, and over time the Federation might start inflicting loses on the Empire. Not in any significant numbers, but they'll make some headway, and the Empire will either accept the loses and accept grinding down the Federation, or they'll step up the invasion and crush the Federation quickly. Either way, the Federation is still doomed. It's just a matter of how many Imperials they take with them to the grave.

Sparta (historical) wouldn't work. You need a "good" evil empire- a group that embodies decent efficiency so that it can actually conquer territory and plan effectively.

Rather than pulling a group out of our asses, a civil war would work better.

A civil war is always possible... we know that the Emperor kept his Grand Admirals at each others throats to keep them from plotting against him... and Palleon kept the Grand Moffs fighting each other for the same reason. What if the Emperor tasked two Grand Admirals to conquer the Federation, but they were to take their time and prolong the war? If that were to happen, the two Grand Admirals might try to attack each other to keep the other from succeeding.

[Ghost Rider]

The thing that no one really counts on in war is luck, since it can be a fickle thing. We've looked at scenarios where the Federation tries to capture both intact and damaged Imperial warships, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Nothing is impossible, just highly, highly unlikely. There could've been an accident where the bridge of the ship was completely destroyed and the engines knocked out, leaving the ship vulnerable. That's a very unlikely scenario, but there's always the possibility.

I was going to be nice, but really...if you can't be arsed to read up and just poking a dead topic with a stick?

So here goes:

Luck is an undefinable item, but to be lucky one has to at least be on par on some level with the enemy. I can be lucky against a boxer. Some 1 in a trillion chance I will hit a perfect spot. I am not lucky against a tank. There is no amount of luck that is going to happen other then a fucking meteor/rocket/jet happening to land on said tank that is going to allow me to win.

That is what Trek versus Wars is.

And don't discount the brilliance of a genius. Thrawn himself, in the opening of the first book in the series, was outnumbered and outgunned. Yet he still wins. I know that the Federation lacks the weaponry necessary to take out a ship without a fleet, but if the Empire is taking its time, they might not be sending their best and brightest. They might even stage a victory for the Federation, to use as propaganda back home to make it look like the Federation fired the first shot.

You could send a drooling fucking retard, and if he's the tank and it moves forward he wins. Who cares what level of intelligence if one cannot overcome a physical advantage that is several orders of magnitude greater? The ISD could sit there, dumbfounded for months to years before a breach. It could twist and ram any Federation craft and win.

So, with that in mind, we know the Federation now has something to work with that most scenarios don't give them: time. And the Empire gives them something else, and that's a goal for their technology. It's one thing to create a theory about how something works, it's another to know that the technology exists. A few scans from any battle survivors would go a long way towards trying to either reproduce or create a counter for a weapon.

We're talking about fish trying to reverse tech a fucking Fusion reactor. Again, I am being nice to define it this way so you'll get a hint.

The first few battles, both on the ground and in space, will go horrible for the Federation. Any survivors will be traumatized and low on morale, but they'll have experience. All of these things will start to accumulate, and over time the Federation might start inflicting loses on the Empire. Not in any significant numbers, but they'll make some headway, and the Empire will either accept the loses and accept grinding down the Federation, or they'll step up the invasion and crush the Federation quickly. Either way, the Federation is still doomed. It's just a matter of how many Imperials they take with them to the grave.

Why, exactly? The Empire has complete space superiority and the capability of slagging every single planet in the Federation with impunity.

Again, this a tank versus a man...in hand to hand combat. And even that analogy fails on several levels.

Sparta (historical) wouldn't work. You need a "good" evil empire- a group that embodies decent efficiency so that it can actually conquer territory and plan effectively.

Rather than pulling a group out of our asses, a civil war would work better.

A civil war is always possible... we know that the Emperor kept his Grand Admirals at each others throats to keep them from plotting against him... and Palleon kept the Grand Moffs fighting each other for the same reason. What if the Emperor tasked two Grand Admirals to conquer the Federation, but they were to take their time and prolong the war? If that were to happen, the two Grand Admirals might try to attack each other to keep the other from succeeding.

And this happen because why again?

Your whole diatribe is basically someone that we've seen before a hundred times. Again, try harder or at least with some imagination.

[HSRTG]

Blargh. Ghost Rider just beat me to it.

The thing that no one really counts on in war is luck, since it can be a fickle thing. We've looked at scenarios where the Federation tries to capture both intact and damaged Imperial warships, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Nothing is impossible, just highly, highly unlikely. There could've been an accident where the bridge of the ship was completely destroyed and the engines knocked out, leaving the ship vulnerable. That's a very unlikely scenario, but there's always the possibility.

You're talking about catastrophic yet highly-selective damage to enable the Federation to perform such a feat. Even if they did manage the feat, how are they to replicate technology orders of magnitude more advanced before the war is over?

And don't discount the brilliance of a genius. Thrawn himself, in the opening of the first book in the series, was outnumbered and outgunned. Yet he still wins. I know that the Federation lacks the weaponry necessary to take out a ship without a fleet, but if the Empire is taking its time, they might not be sending their best and brightest. They might even stage a victory for the Federation, to use as propaganda back home to make it look like the Federation fired the first shot.

Thrawn had comparable weapons, ships, logistics, etc. The Federation (or anyone else) won't. As for staging a victory...why? The Alpha Quadrant is barely going to require a sector fleet to subdue. The expense is going to be a rounding error on some Imperial accountant's desk. Hell, why would the public at large even be aware the Alpha Quadrant exists at all before the fighting is over?

Even if the Empire does stage a victory, why wouldn't they do it with a few superficially (appearance) converted freighters? The people they'd give the propaganda to won't know the difference.

So, with that in mind, we know the Federation now has something to work with that most scenarios don't give them: time. And the Empire gives them something else, and that's a goal for their technology.

Could you expand on this? I don't see how it follows from the above.

It's one thing to create a theory about how something works, it's another to know that the technology exists. A few scans from any battle survivors would go a long way towards trying to either reproduce or create a counter for a weapon. The first few battles, both on the ground and in space, will go horrible for the Federation. Any survivors will be traumatized and low on morale, but they'll have experience. All of these things will start to accumulate, and over time the Federation might start inflicting loses on the Empire. Not in any significant numbers, but they'll make some headway, and the Empire will either accept the loses and accept grinding down the Federation, or they'll step up the invasion and crush the Federation quickly. Either way, the Federation is still doomed. It's just a matter of how many Imperials they take with them to the grave.

They *might* be able to make some decent ground units. Modern ground weapons are better than anyone's in the Star Trek galaxy. Fuck knows if anybody would figure this out in time. However, by the time the an Alpha Quadrant power can fight in space at any level the war will have long since been over. Or the conquered planets will be importing Star Wars level civilian goods as new Imperial citizens, and the remaining resistance will become just more Rebels for the Alliance.

Sparta (historical) wouldn't work. You need a "good" evil empire- a group that embodies decent efficiency so that it can actually conquer territory and plan effectively.

Rather than pulling a group out of our asses, a civil war would work better.

A civil war is always possible... we know that the Emperor kept his Grand Admirals at each others throats to keep them from plotting against him... and Palleon kept the Grand Moffs fighting each other for the same reason. What if the Emperor tasked two Grand Admirals to conquer the Federation, but they were to take their time and prolong the war? If that were to happen, the two Grand Admirals might try to attack each other to keep the other from succeeding.

There were twelve Grand Admirals at any one time. Just twelve. Each personally appointed by the Emperor.

How would an outright civil war happen with the Emperor overseeing the conquest? The Emperor himself would be monitoring it, given that apparently he sent a pair of Grand Admirals to conquer the Alpha Quadrant.

[Darth Hoth]

The thing that no one really counts on in war is luck, since it can be a fickle thing. We've looked at scenarios where the Federation tries to capture both intact and damaged Imperial warships, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Nothing is impossible, just highly, highly unlikely. There could've been an accident where the bridge of the ship was completely destroyed and the engines knocked out, leaving the ship vulnerable. That's a very unlikely scenario, but there's always the possibility.

Assuming that they can even capture it, at whatever slim odds, what use do they possibly have for it? They obviously cannot reverse engineer it, any more than First World War Germany could a B-2 if they found one, and without them being able to replicate the technology it is little more than a trophy.

And don't discount the brilliance of a genius. Thrawn himself, in the opening of the first book in the series, was outnumbered and outgunned. Yet he still wins.

Thrawn never seriously threatened the New Republic's survival; he basically fought years of guerrilla war and had only just begun any significant "rollback" when his movement ran out of steam at Bilbringi. The post-Thrawnite warlords did better, by recapturing Coruscant. And at that, he controlled 1/4 of the assets available to the Empire at its height; the New Republic outnumbered him only by perhaps two to one.

If we look to reality, we see also that numbers beat skill. Take the Second World War: the German Wehrmacht killed something like three or four Russian Red Army soldiers for every death it suffered, due to its greater skill, better organisation and superior doctrine, yet the Russians won on the Eastern Front because they could replace their lost manpower and materiel, while the Germans could not. And the odds here are astronomically greater in favour of the Empire.

A civil war is always possible... we know that the Emperor kept his Grand Admirals at each others throats to keep them from plotting against him... and Palleon kept the Grand Moffs fighting each other for the same reason. What if the Emperor tasked two Grand Admirals to conquer the Federation, but they were to take their time and prolong the war? If that were to happen, the two Grand Admirals might try to attack each other to keep the other from succeeding.

Ehrm, no? There is a very large difference between political and administrative infighting on the one hand and actual military civil war on the other. By this logic, the National Socialist state should have been going up in flames from the various party and government offices air-strafing each others' headquarters at about the time they were preparing to attack Poland.

[Baffalo]

Assuming that they can even capture it, at whatever slim odds, what use do they possibly have for it? They obviously cannot reverse engineer it, any more than First World War Germany could a B-2 if they found one, and without them being able to replicate the technology it is little more than a trophy.

I'm not sure that the Federation would be quite that limited. Granted, they're millenia behind Star Wars, but that doesn't mean they can't figure something out. I can't remember where I saw this, but I saw a Star Wars story saying that Star Wars doesn't understand hyperdrive technology themselves (though that doesn't make any sense, considering they improve upon it all the time and make custom units for different ships).

Thrawn never seriously threatened the New Republic's survival; he basically fought years of guerrilla war and had only just begun any significant "rollback" when his movement ran out of steam at Bilbringi. The post-Thrawnite warlords did better, by recapturing Coruscant. And at that, he controlled 1/4 of the assets available to the Empire at its height; the New Republic outnumbered him only by perhaps two to one.

If we look to reality, we see also that numbers beat skill. Take the Second World War: the German Wehrmacht killed something like three or four Russian Red Army soldiers for every death it suffered, due to its greater skill, better organisation and superior doctrine, yet the Russians won on the Eastern Front because they could replace their lost manpower and materiel, while the Germans could not. And the odds here are astronomically greater in favour of the Empire.

Yes, that's a very good point about Thrawn, and I concede that point to you.

As far as numerical advantage besting skill... I am not quite sure about that, considering that the armies in Iraq outnumbered both forces led against it during Operation Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom. However, the forces attacking Iraq were decades ahead of the old stockpile stuff being sold to them by the Russians, so that is most likely the reason. I guess the best example that skills and numbers aren't always the crucial factors are several battles during the American Revolution. Before the French became involved, America managed to win a few key battles on its own.

Ehrm, no? There is a very large difference between political and administrative infighting on the one hand and actual military civil war on the other. By this logic, the National Socialist state should have been going up in flames from the various party and government offices air-strafing each others' headquarters at about the time they were preparing to attack Poland.

There is a difference, yes, but there's still the possibility that, removed from direct oversight by the Emperor, they might turn on each other. Very unlikely, but possible.

So, with that in mind, we know the Federation now has something to work with that most scenarios don't give them: time. And the Empire gives them something else, and that's a goal for their technology.

Could you expand on this? I don't see how it follows from the above.

What I'm saying is that while we all know of the complete incompetence of many Starfleet engineers,given enough time and a goal to accomplish, they might can produce something to tip the scales a bit in their favor.

Thrawn had comparable weapons, ships, logistics, etc. The Federation (or anyone else) won't. As for staging a victory...why? The Alpha Quadrant is barely going to require a sector fleet to subdue. The expense is going to be a rounding error on some Imperial accountant's desk. Hell, why would the public at large even be aware the Alpha Quadrant exists at all before the fighting is over?

Even if the Empire does stage a victory, why wouldn't they do it with a few superficially (appearance) converted freighters? The people they'd give the propaganda to won't know the difference.

I regret putting that there. The whole idea of giving the Federation a victory is silly and absurd.

They *might* be able to make some decent ground units. Modern ground weapons are better than anyone's in the Star Trek galaxy. Fuck knows if anybody would figure this out in time. However, by the time the an Alpha Quadrant power can fight in space at any level the war will have long since been over. Or the conquered planets will be importing Star Wars level civilian goods as new Imperial citizens, and the remaining resistance will become just more Rebels for the Alliance.

I didn't look at it that way, but it would be very much like what happens in Halo. In space, humanity gets slaughtered even when they outnumber the enemy 3 to 1. On the ground, however, humans seem to hold their own, given enough men and materiel. If the Imperial war machine keeps grinding along, they might abandon some planets in favor of saving their men for more strategic targets. So yes, by the time space weapons are developed, the war will be over.

There were twelve Grand Admirals at any one time. Just twelve. Each personally appointed by the Emperor.

How would an outright civil war happen with the Emperor overseeing the conquest? The Emperor himself would be monitoring it, given that apparently he sent a pair of Grand Admirals to conquer the Alpha Quadrant.

I was thinking of Thrawn, who was sentenced to political exile conquering the Unknown Regions. I don't know if the Emperor kept close tabs on him out there or not, but I think he just left Thrawn out there alone because he felt Thrawn would do the job, and he just sat back and listened to reports. If the Emperor did things like they did in the Soviet Union, there might be political officers stationed aboard the ships, with some visible and some not. There's no canon evidence for such, but I can see that possibly happening.

And for Ghost Rider

I atleast appreciate the attempt to be nice. I know this isn't the first time you've seen this, and I appologize. I'll try and to better in the future. I thought this was something that hadn't been seen before. So sorry for wasting everyone's time.

We're talking about fish trying to reverse tech a fucking Fusion reactor.

Give them a few million years, check back on their progress every few thousand years, and they'll get it eventually.

[Darth Hoth]

I'm not sure that the Federation would be quite that limited. Granted, they're millenia behind Star Wars, but that doesn't mean they can't figure something out. I can't remember where I saw this, but I saw a Star Wars story saying that Star Wars doesn't understand hyperdrive technology themselves (though that doesn't make any sense, considering they improve upon it all the time and make custom units for different ships).

Reverse-engineering from a completely different tech base, used to dealing with energies several orders of magnitude above what Trek typically handles, is positively outrageous, especially if it is to be done in short order. Do you have any knowledge of real-life engineering? As an interesting factoid, one could offer that there was considerable difficulty in real life in manufacturing the Merlin engine in America during the Second World War, despite the Americans being given complete blueprints for it by their British allies. This was a technology that was well understood and commonly used by both parties, with total co-operation on producing the particular model.

Yes, that's a very good point about Thrawn, and I concede that point to you.

As far as numerical advantage besting skill... I am not quite sure about that, considering that the armies in Iraq outnumbered both forces led against it during Operation Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom. However, the forces attacking Iraq were decades ahead of the old stockpile stuff being sold to them by the Russians, so that is most likely the reason. I guess the best example that skills and numbers aren't always the crucial factors are several battles during the American Revolution. Before the French became involved, America managed to win a few key battles on its own.

The Germans also won several great battles against the Soviets, an adversary that outnumbered them by many orders of magnitude less than the Empire does the Federation, yet they lost because their adversaries could keep throwing in new stuff while they could not.

When I said numbers and skill, I obviously meant with roughly comparable tech bases, not when one side has total air superiority and is using the latest equipment against cheap export versions of decades-obsolete systems. If we are looking for completely lop-sided examples, we can take the good ol' Maxims against various savage tribes. Which probably comes closer to the difference in firepower between Wars and Trek, but I was discussing the Thrawn campaign.

There is a difference, yes, but there's still the possibility that, removed from direct oversight by the Emperor, they might turn on each other. Very unlikely, but possible.

Why do they have less "direct oversight by the Emperor" in the Alpha Quadrant than elsewhere? Hyper-wave communications ensure instantaneous coverage of the new front; it is not like they are some 16th-century explorers that go across the ocean. And why would the Emperor oversee every detail of a relatively insignificant conquest personally; he has much better things to do with his time.

So, with that in mind, we know the Federation now has something to work with that most scenarios don't give them: time. And the Empire gives them something else, and that's a goal for their technology.

What I'm saying is that while we all know of the complete incompetence of many Starfleet engineers,given enough time and a goal to accomplish, they might can produce something to tip the scales a bit in their favor.

What kind of time would you consider reasonable for accomplishing this objective? A Second World War Germany given twenty years' respite could probably engineer something to defeat the Soviets . . .

They *might* be able to make some decent ground units. Modern ground weapons are better than anyone's in the Star Trek galaxy. Fuck knows if anybody would figure this out in time. However, by the time the an Alpha Quadrant power can fight in space at any level the war will have long since been over. Or the conquered planets will be importing Star Wars level civilian goods as new Imperial citizens, and the remaining resistance will become just more Rebels for the Alliance.

I didn't look at it that way, but it would be very much like what happens in Halo. In space, humanity gets slaughtered even when they outnumber the enemy 3 to 1. On the ground, however, humans seem to hold their own, given enough men and materiel. If the Imperial war machine keeps grinding along, they might abandon some planets in favor of saving their men for more strategic targets. So yes, by the time space weapons are developed, the war will be over.

A hint: Do not use videogames as examples around here. People will pounce on it. Just some friendly advice.

The problem here is again scale: the Empire has such overwhelming resources that they can simply stuff every Federation planet with troops. There is utterly no possibility of attrition reaching such levels that it becomes in any way noticeable to the Empire; the Federation will be completely swamped.

There were twelve Grand Admirals at any one time. Just twelve. Each personally appointed by the Emperor.

How would an outright civil war happen with the Emperor overseeing the conquest? The Emperor himself would be monitoring it, given that apparently he sent a pair of Grand Admirals to conquer the Alpha Quadrant.

I was thinking of Thrawn, who was sentenced to political exile conquering the Unknown Regions. I don't know if the Emperor kept close tabs on him out there or not, but I think he just left Thrawn out there alone because he felt Thrawn would do the job, and he just sat back and listened to reports. If the Emperor did things like they did in the Soviet Union, there might be political officers stationed aboard the ships, with some visible and some not. There's no canon evidence for such, but I can see that possibly happening.

The EU specifies the existence of no less than two corps of political officers (Political Reliability Observers and CompForce's Observation, respectively), as well as various security and intelligence agencies with deep-cover agents in the Navy and on individual ships. The Imperial State has thorough control of its Navy.

Your reply to Ghost Rider I shall leave for him to consider.

[Ghost Rider]

Assuming that they can even capture it, at whatever slim odds, what use do they possibly have for it? They obviously cannot reverse engineer it, any more than First World War Germany could a B-2 if they found one, and without them being able to replicate the technology it is little more than a trophy.

I'm not sure that the Federation would be quite that limited. Granted, they're millenia behind Star Wars, but that doesn't mean they can't figure something out. I can't remember where I saw this, but I saw a Star Wars story saying that Star Wars doesn't understand hyperdrive technology themselves (though that doesn't make any sense, considering they improve upon it all the time and make custom units for different ships).

Okay, so if I give cave...fuck that I give Victorian Era engineers a nuclear sub, what do you think they are going to figure out? Some of it, but they will not figure out most of it, and some parts will be so alien, it might as well be.

That is with terrestial technology and less then a few hundred years of difference. Star Wars versus Star Trek is magnitudes of orders difference given power and engineering feats.

Now here's where I decide you are a fucking idiot. You either provide evidence that Trek has shown the capability of understanding technology of this level, and have the resources to use this. And provide evidence that your Hyperdrive story wasn't a one shot by some po dunk hick and is the mainstay of that universe's knowledge.

Thrawn never seriously threatened the New Republic's survival; he basically fought years of guerrilla war and had only just begun any significant "rollback" when his movement ran out of steam at Bilbringi. The post-Thrawnite warlords did better, by recapturing Coruscant. And at that, he controlled 1/4 of the assets available to the Empire at its height; the New Republic outnumbered him only by perhaps two to one.

If we look to reality, we see also that numbers beat skill. Take the Second World War: the German Wehrmacht killed something like three or four Russian Red Army soldiers for every death it suffered, due to its greater skill, better organisation and superior doctrine, yet the Russians won on the Eastern Front because they could replace their lost manpower and materiel, while the Germans could not. And the odds here are astronomically greater in favour of the Empire.

Yes, that's a very good point about Thrawn, and I concede that point to you.

As far as numerical advantage besting skill... I am not quite sure about that, considering that the armies in Iraq outnumbered both forces led against it during Operation Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom. However, the forces attacking Iraq were decades ahead of the old stockpile stuff being sold to them by the Russians, so that is most likely the reason. I guess the best example that skills and numbers aren't always the crucial factors are several battles during the American Revolution. Before the French became involved, America managed to win a few key battles on its own.

LOL, holy shit, you're drawing upon minor victories against odds that are within equal power levels. Demonstrate to us a man with sticks(no guns) versus a modern army and I'll give you ridiculous assumption some thought.

Again, your blithering is getting tiring, because this is another been there done that.

Ehrm, no? There is a very large difference between political and administrative infighting on the one hand and actual military civil war on the other. By this logic, the National Socialist state should have been going up in flames from the various party and government offices air-strafing each others' headquarters at about the time they were preparing to attack Poland.

There is a difference, yes, but there's still the possibility that, removed from direct oversight by the Emperor, they might turn on each other. Very unlikely, but possible.

DEMONSTRATE THIS, RETARD. So far you've been throwing around supposition and proven nothing.

Could you expand on this? I don't see how it follows from the above.

What I'm saying is that while we all know of the complete incompetence of many Starfleet engineers,given enough time and a goal to accomplish, they might can produce something to tip the scales a bit in their favor.

Why? Seriously, why? You've been using essentially "They just will" as your point of evidence and that is nothing of the sort. Either literally read up or shut the fuck up.

They *might* be able to make some decent ground units. Modern ground weapons are better than anyone's in the Star Trek galaxy. Fuck knows if anybody would figure this out in time. However, by the time the an Alpha Quadrant power can fight in space at any level the war will have long since been over. Or the conquered planets will be importing Star Wars level civilian goods as new Imperial citizens, and the remaining resistance will become just more Rebels for the Alliance.

I didn't look at it that way, but it would be very much like what happens in Halo. In space, humanity gets slaughtered even when they outnumber the enemy 3 to 1. On the ground, however, humans seem to hold their own, given enough men and materiel. If the Imperial war machine keeps grinding along, they might abandon some planets in favor of saving their men for more strategic targets. So yes, by the time space weapons are developed, the war will be over.

Again Halo was at least with enemies on par with each other. The Empire can field single guns that are more powerful then the entire stockpile of Federation vessels. This is not Halo, Any Terrestial war, or anything within two opponents of equal level. If you do not grasp this, shut the fuck up about it. Mike has provided at the very least material to view. I reccomend using it, because you are inching towards getting your ass out the door.

There were twelve Grand Admirals at any one time. Just twelve. Each personally appointed by the Emperor.

How would an outright civil war happen with the Emperor overseeing the conquest? The Emperor himself would be monitoring it, given that apparently he sent a pair of Grand Admirals to conquer the Alpha Quadrant.

I was thinking of Thrawn, who was sentenced to political exile conquering the Unknown Regions. I don't know if the Emperor kept close tabs on him out there or not, but I think he just left Thrawn out there alone because he felt Thrawn would do the job, and he just sat back and listened to reports. If the Emperor did things like they did in the Soviet Union, there might be political officers stationed aboard the ships, with some visible and some not. There's no canon evidence for such, but I can see that possibly happening.

Again, are you going to provide something other then your gut instinct?

And for Ghost Rider

I atleast appreciate the attempt to be nice. I know this isn't the first time you've seen this, and I appologize. I'll try and to better in the future. I thought this was something that hadn't been seen before. So sorry for wasting everyone's time.

So wait, you still pressed submit. I am being honest, either put up something that is not supposition, or walk away.

We're talking about fish trying to reverse tech a fucking Fusion reactor.

Give them a few million years, check back on their progress every few thousand years, and they'll get it eventually.

Exactly what is going to change in a million years? Are you going to tell me you can predict that their technology will not stagnat but infact encounter several leaps in engineering and physics to achieve what you are proposing. Again, you have any evidence towards this.

[Baffalo]

I give up. I was trying to outline a series of event that might, key word MIGHT, have given the Federation a shot. The reason I thought there might've been a chance is because I still find it difficult to wrap my mind around the orders of magnitude difference between the two. Because on the one hand, matter/anti-matter interaction produces so much power, yet still a ship like the Slave 1 can produce much more. And it's a personal craft! I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time.

[HSRTG]

What I'm saying is that while we all know of the complete incompetence of many Starfleet engineers,given enough time and a goal to accomplish, they might can produce something to tip the scales a bit in their favor.

I apologize for misleading you. I was asking you to clarify how you established the following.

So, with that in mind, we know the Federation now has something to work with that most scenarios don't give them: time.

I never saw you say anything that would give the Federation time.

EDIT: Yeah, I realize you conceded. I thought I should clarify things though.

[Ghost Rider]

I give up. I was trying to outline a series of event that might, key word MIGHT, have given the Federation a shot. The reason I thought there might've been a chance is because I still find it difficult to wrap my mind around the orders of magnitude difference between the two. Because on the one hand, matter/anti-matter interaction produces so much power, yet still a ship like the Slave 1 can produce much more. And it's a personal craft! I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time.

To be honest, why is that hard to believe that another universe has better miniturization of their level of tech and is profoundly better then Trek? For size we've seen examples within our lifetimes, and easily within weapons but in everyday technology. We've seen it in computers, phones, cars, clothing and such not.

As for size just because something is larger doesn't always means it is better, but it does state an engineering capability. Trek just has a far lower ability to create a technology for energy production with the materials available. Just as other cultures have galaxy spanning devices far more then Wars.

[Baffalo]

I give up. I was trying to outline a series of event that might, key word MIGHT, have given the Federation a shot. The reason I thought there might've been a chance is because I still find it difficult to wrap my mind around the orders of magnitude difference between the two. Because on the one hand, matter/anti-matter interaction produces so much power, yet still a ship like the Slave 1 can produce much more. And it's a personal craft! I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time.

To be honest, why is that hard to believe that another universe has better miniturization of their level of tech and is profoundly better then Trek? For size we've seen examples within our lifetimes, and easily within weapons but in everyday technology. We've seen it in computers, phones, cars, clothing and such not.

As for size just because something is larger doesn't always means it is better, but it does state an engineering capability. Trek just has a far lower ability to create a technology for energy production with the materials available. Just as other cultures have galaxy spanning devices far more then Wars.

I suppose it's the nature of the beast. When I think about the warp drive in Star Trek, I think of a dilithium crystal channeling deuterium and anti-deuterium together into a 100% efficient chamber and using the resulting energy to power the ship. Though... that raises a question. If all matter and anti-matter is supposed to be destroyed, then where do they get the plasma? Is the flow rate for the deuterium set at a higher rate than the anti-deuterium? That would make sense... the resulting energy released from the matter/anti-matter mix would be transferred through radiation (since the reaction chamber would need to be in a perfect vacuum to keep unnecessary reactants from contaminating the mix) to the extra deuterium. Since radiation can also provide a charge, the energy and charge would transform the deuterium into plasma.

Huh... and we know that dilithium is supposed to contain the reaction, so the power of a vessel is limited by the crystal. And the crystals, from various episodes of Star Trek, we know is very very small... so it is a matter of physical size! Wow... ok so that's why I could never make the connection! I just now realized the exact way that warp cores work!

Sorry... just got lost in my own little world there.

[Stark]

Dude, read the website.

It amuses me people can speculate on magic words like 'plasma' and not wonder what the fuck 'contain the reaction' even means or how it makes sense. Dilithium is magical matter POROUS TO ANTIMATTER LOL.

Classic example of no-numbers understanding for 2009 complete.

[Samuel]

Plasma is just super-heated matter so hot that the electrons have left their parent atoms and struck out on their own. You could get it just by having water absorb the heat from the reactor. It saves the difficulty of accidently leting anti-matter flow out of the reactor.

Of course, a normal reactor wouldn't need plasma, instead just using steam for its purposes, but that is trek for you. Never do something easy when you can make an atomic powered version!... wait, Foundation.

[Starglider]

The ST galaxy appears to be absolutely loaded with bizarre space anomalies, many of which are capable of trapping/incapacitating starships, and can only be escaped/mitigated by arbitrary technobabble. The most likely way for an Alpha quadrant power to get their hands on an SW ship is to wait for one of them to get stuck in such an anomaly, or possibly lure one into a suitable anomaly if they have something they can use as bait. Unfortunately however even if this works and the ship survives intact, it will do them no good for the reasons discussed above.

[Samuel]

The ST galaxy appears to be absolutely loaded with bizarre space anomalies, many of which are capable of trapping/incapacitating starships, and can only be escaped/mitigated by arbitrary technobabble. The most likely way for an Alpha quadrant power to get their hands on an SW ship is to wait for one of them to get stuck in such an anomaly, or possibly lure one into a suitable anomaly if they have something they can use as bait. Unfortunately however even if this works and the ship survives intact, it will do them no good for the reasons discussed above.

You are assuming they will affect SW ships. At the least, they can shrug off a bit more punishment and SW is further advanced in "ESPers"- while trek has people who can catch glimses of the future, wars has people who can try to choke you to death from a distance.

You know, given the low population of trek, it could be the same thing.

[Darth Wong]

The ST galaxy appears to be absolutely loaded with bizarre space anomalies, many of which are capable of trapping/incapacitating starships, and can only be escaped/mitigated by arbitrary technobabble. The most likely way for an Alpha quadrant power to get their hands on an SW ship is to wait for one of them to get stuck in such an anomaly, or possibly lure one into a suitable anomaly if they have something they can use as bait. Unfortunately however even if this works and the ship survives intact, it will do them no good for the reasons discussed above.

Actually, it seems to me that ST ships only encounter such anomalies because they go out of their way to investigate them.

[Lord Revan]

The ST galaxy appears to be absolutely loaded with bizarre space anomalies, many of which are capable of trapping/incapacitating starships, and can only be escaped/mitigated by arbitrary technobabble. The most likely way for an Alpha quadrant power to get their hands on an SW ship is to wait for one of them to get stuck in such an anomaly, or possibly lure one into a suitable anomaly if they have something they can use as bait. Unfortunately however even if this works and the ship survives intact, it will do them no good for the reasons discussed above.

Actually, it seems to me that ST ships only encounter such anomalies because they go out of their way to investigate them.

also correct if I'm wrong but didn't ST ships' overreliance on subspace tech play a part in at least some of those anomalies?

[Darth Wong]

The ST galaxy appears to be absolutely loaded with bizarre space anomalies, many of which are capable of trapping/incapacitating starships, and can only be escaped/mitigated by arbitrary technobabble. The most likely way for an Alpha quadrant power to get their hands on an SW ship is to wait for one of them to get stuck in such an anomaly, or possibly lure one into a suitable anomaly if they have something they can use as bait. Unfortunately however even if this works and the ship survives intact, it will do them no good for the reasons discussed above.

Actually, it seems to me that ST ships only encounter such anomalies because they go out of their way to investigate them.

also correct if I'm wrong but didn't ST ships' overreliance on subspace tech play a part in at least some of those anomalies?

It certainly seems to in some cases, like the subspace tear being attracted to the Enterprise-D's warp core in "Insurrection" or the superluminal "subspace shock wave" from Praxis in ST6 which traveled light years away to hit the USS Excelsior like a sledge hammer but did only "ozone layer" damage to Quo'nos, which was right next to it. When something has far more effect on a Federation starship than it has on natural objects, the only reasonable explanation is that it interacts with their subspace magic-tech.