SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK II

[K. A. Pital]

You know, disparity well put:

Our superior bomb prior to OMSK Nuclear Programme Test 01 relating to Lonestar's serial device yield:

0,00044. 4,5 thousand times more powerful.

Now, we have a device 70 times more powerful than Lonestar's, principally both are nuclear weapons.

Yes, we could have made a 100 kt nuke. But I seriously doubt the reaction would've been any different. Besides it was pretty clear we were making it because I supplied Shep with dual-use reactors and he stated it.

Oh well, I guess I'm off to sleep.

[Redleader34]

Because of the nature of the Sovie... er um OMSK and NAT... er um MESS alliances, the stage of global politics makes it so that every large power requires atomic force. Also, who the hell has Death's Nation, its free game, as of now...

From a real OOC point of view, I saw atomics coming 20 miles away, so this is not a surprise at all. Hell, Shep said he was making ATOMIC RESEARCH several posts away. I did not expect Shep to join OMSK, even though I should have, but now, I'm very scared. I don't want to have my people hit by atom bombs....

EDIT NOTE: This is funny though, Its like China becomes RED in 1950, if China had Canada level infrastructure running. Its going to be a very interesting stage now that nukes are ready to go.

[Coyote]

Heheh.... I actually ignored the nuclear posturing and was left out (in fact, in the Mess subforum we briefly discussed why Canissia hadn't sent any scientists to help with the nuclear programme; it was for 3 reasons I didn't participate:

King Arik was too "busy" with his concubines and partying.
King Arik also didn't want anything to do with Cold War politics.
King Arik didn't realize he was supposed to send engineers to help, since he was certain that we had agreed to pursue research projects seperately and then share the results ex post facto.

[RogueIce]

Well I understand you and Rogue remained reasonable enough.

But I can't belive the Lonestar thing did not cause any indignation whatsoever.

The "general public" probably took those earthquakes at face value. Or were just denying them for whatever reason. "Mysterious tremors" is a far cry from "great big mushroom cloud" in the minds of the common person after all. Shep's "exercises" probably only exacerbated those fears amongst the common man.

For my part, I pretty much said "damn Lonestar and Shep" for it, even though I as a leader knew there was really nothing I could do about it. I strongly suspected it, of course. Whether others did or not, I'm not sure.

So that's probably why there's such a public outcry. Lonestar's tests were, all in all, pretty subtle so far as the "common man on the street" is concerned. Yours was anything but.

As for nations being concerned, well, Shep did make the public statement that, essentially, the people of Libertia deserve to be attacked simply because of where they live.

Shep's declaration in front of assembled "world leaders":

"...the Goddamn Libertopians are in the end a greater threat."

"Thusly, I propose that Libertopia become a international free fire zone, with the only weapon being denied combat testing over Libertopia being bacteriological weapons, in keeping with the treaty banning them."

Now he's tested a nuclear device and conducted exercises to have his troops operating on a "nuclear battlefield". So if he's pretty much declared the lives of the people of Libertia as worthless, then well, people would be worried he has the bomb and is training to send in troops after it's gone off.

Keep in mind, I haven't read anything that has taken place since pretty much my last post in the thread (IU, I'm obviously caught up on OOC). So keep that in mind when reading my above post.

EDIT: And OOC keep in mind, this is Shep with nuclear weapons. Are you surprised those of us from SDN would be worried about this?

[Coyote]

From a real OOC point of view, I saw atomics coming 20 miles away, so this is not a surprise at all. Hell, Shep said he was making ATOMIC RESEARCH several posts away...

Yeah, realistically I knew it would happen, I just ...hoped... heh.

[RogueIce]

As for the MESS being a "closed alliance" that is a mistaken notion. While members of the SDN Usergroup known as "The Mess" pretty automatically get in, it is not restricted to just us.

Anybody is free to petition the MESS for membership.

[Coyote]

By the way, in Real LIfe (tm) I will be away this weekend for Army Reserves, so I won't be able to keep up like I sometimes do. If needed, check some names of government ministers on my OOB (top of page 2 in the SD.net World OOB sticky) if needed for interaction or statements.

Generally, the people of Canissia are scared, and tense, and unsure whether to go to extremes for peace on one hand or go to extremes for militarization on the other. It's still in 'shock' phase, but it's wearing off and will come down to 'argue and demand action' phase soon.

[Beowulf]

Also, the notion that we don't trade with the wider world is manifestly false as well. In case you've failed to notice, Tian Xia has traded (or attempted to) military and civilian technology with a number of nations, among them the ITR. And that's just me, and the obvious bits. It doesn't include Shinra, or the other low level trade (stuff that costs $1 isn't going to be posted about).

Any dreams of testing 1:1 or even 1:20 human-flyable scramjet models for hypersonic windpipes are fiction. Reality starts from 1:70 and downwards.

Actually it's more for testing full scale engines, and being able to test models at much greater scale with it.

[Coyote]

I've done a lot of trade with Fungal Axis and PeZook, and been very involved in helping to rebuild Gottland... and made bilateral trade agreements with Bear Republic...

[RogueIce]

For what it's worth, I'm a member of the ISCA if you'll all remember. In fact Stas, I'm building 14 of your Fast Commerece Ships. And I've offered various trade deals with others, as well as joint training and equipment providing to PeZookia for his Airmobile units. As well as participating in rescuing those hostages with PeZookia, among them citizens from various OMSK countries, yours and Shep's included.

And so you know, I placed a call over the Red Telephone.

[Mr Bean]

Beowulf I'm calling for a retrocon or I'm calling you on your killing people bullshit, unless you claim that Stas drones are so bad they can overfly the wrong country over 300 kilometets away it would be amazing how they managed to somehow-land in your country and kill people.


Stas did not make this clear but the drones were over-launching the Lonestar Republic not Tian Xian.

Unless of course you want to say you just murdered ten of your own people in order to claim PR points.

[Beowulf]

Beowulf I'm calling for a retrocon or I'm calling you on your killing people bullshit, unless you claim that Stas drones are so bad they can overfly the wrong country over 300 kilometets away it would be amazing how they managed to somehow-land in your country and kill people.


Stas did not make this clear but the drones were over-launching the Lonestar Republic not Tian Xian.

Unless of course you want to say you just murdered ten of your own people in order to claim PR points.

Bullshit. He explicitly launched to the southeast.

"Various directions from south-east to north-east have been selected".

Lonestar is exclusively NE of you. Therefore, he launched over me.

[Mr Bean]

Bullshit. He explicitly launched to the southeast.

"Various directions from south-east to north-east have been selected".

.

So he launched drones which killed your citizens, are you now declaring war on the Red Technocracy or are you a piece of shit leader who does not care if a foreign country kills your citizens?

Think long and hard Beowulf

Lonestar is exclusively NE of you. Therefore, he launched over me

"This is another series of tests. The range and maneuvrability of the drones are tested, with machines terminated in the Eastern Ocean" - reported Air Force Marshal Anna. - "Various directions from south-east to north-east have been selected".

In order to totally criss-cross The Lone-star Republic he has to go from south east and north east. The Lonestar Republic is EAST of the Red Technocracy

More over the drones in question have a 3,200 kilometer range and have enough fuel to fly over the Lonestar Republic and back to the Red-Technocracy six times. falling short is unlikley to say the least despite the fact it's again, not over your country.

[Beowulf]

Pardon, I appear to have misread his post... However, almost the entirety of the south of the Lonestar Republic will still result in him overflying Tian Xia, and planes flying at Mach 2.7 aren't noted for their manueverability.

Also, he apparently violated the airspace of the Bear Republic, a neutral party in this whole mess.

Lastly, you're right, my statement should be more strongly worded, with demands for reparations.

[Mr Bean]

Pardon, I appear to have misread his post... However, almost the entirety of the south of the Lonestar Republic will still result in him overflying Tian Xia, and planes flying at Mach 2.7 aren't noted for their manueverability.

Also, he apparently violated the airspace of the Bear Republic, a neutral party in this whole mess.

Lastly, you're right, my statement should be more strongly worded, with demands for reparations.

I just got my last pm from him noting he won't be awake for another 8 hours so I'll leave off on this until he's back to defend himself or offend himself as required.

[MKSheppard]

The STGOD has gone off since I lit off that nuke

This game is really more of an international conflict simulator and diplomatic conflict simulator than a story telling device; which I find highly cool; we're seeing the exact same lines, stories, etc that were used to such great effect from 1948 to 1991 in @.

Perhaps we could get a study rolling by a university on this?

"The conflict dynamics between a group of strangers"

[TimothyC]

Okay, time to move our international relations forward to a more radical proposal.

FREE OMSK CITIZEN RESIDENCE


This proposal allows any citizen of the OMSK nation to reside in another OMSK nation, should he be so willing.

Instead of "free trade" agreements, we propose a "free people's movement" agreement.

The Kingdom of New Patria hereby passes this measure.

[K. A. Pital]

Okay, "secrets" Lonestar?

Well, here's the deal: OMSK announced it's nuclear tests while you secretely developed WMDs against us and the MESS were complicit.

As for drones, well tough luck, but because we remain commited to NO SPY SATS rule, we only have a ~30-60 m resolution from our MEO LANDSAT that Blackadder used to expose your programme. And as you remain secretive about the explosions, and their true number still remains unknown - that's what you get.

So if you're so willing, you're now number one strategic OMSK Threat, since you are secretly testing nuclear WMDs and actively concealing it. WIth MESS complicit in the concealment.

Which tests of ours have been a secret? The atmospheric test, even our FOAB missile test was pretty much known to all. So was our nuclear program and Shep told about it.

But you chose to be an ass about it; more than that you maintain secrecy beyond anything our testing program did. Sure, go on and whine about "big mean BAD OMSK"

[Lonestar]

So if you're so willing, you're now number one strategic OMSK Threat, since you are secretly testing nuclear WMDs and actively concealing it. WIth MESS complicit in the concealment.

Was that suppose to be a past-tense statement? Because if not, you've done fucked up. I acknowledged a nuclear program earlier in the (real life) week.

Fort Worth Star Telegram
The Government of the Lone Star Republic acknowledged for the first time that there is an active nuclear weapons program taking place, and a new military command for control of the weapons, National Strategic Command is currently being established. In addition it has been revealed that a fast breeder reactor is under construction near Amarillo.

The number of completed weapons is believed to be small, but two SSNs, the Bass and Roadrunner were taken into drydock early after our arrival on New Terra, and it is widely speculated that the cores were removed specifically to provided bomb material for the program.

el Presidente Lonestar, during the brief press conference, refused to mention whether or not other nations are involved in the program, although 'The Lone Star Republic recognizes the rights of all countries('cept the Libertopians) to pursue tools for their national defense.'

Energy Metals Incorporated, a jointly held "public" corporation controlled by Texas A&M National Laboratory and Southwest Power &Electric, had a $1.50 stock growth during the last fifteen minutes of the open stock exchanges in San Antonio. SWP&E had a $2.00 growth due to speculation that they are the primary contractor for the fast breeder reactor.

I further add that the Lone Star Republic has made none, zero, nada, threatening gestures to our neighbors. We brought our spy satellite program(the "Deadeye" one) to a screeching halt because it wasn't worth picking a fight over it. You, and Shep, have made incursions into the airspace of MESS members.

Not once has a MESS member made as aggressive maneuvers as you and Shep. Not. Once.

The Lone Star Republic has gone as far as giving a blank check to other countries with regards to weapons development. Yes, our program was secret...so? We also came clean with it with a quiet announcement, not a atmospheric test that could be seen in other countries. All you are doing is bitchin' and moaning that we are somehow in the wrong because we tried to maintain this crazy thing called "OPSEC". That's it. That's the only thing you can get us on. You can't get us violating the sovereignty of other nations, because we haven't. You can't get us on crimes against humanity, because we have committed no such crimes. You can't get the LSR on staging riots, there have been no anti-OMSK Pact demonstrations in the LSR. You can't get the LSR on hypocrisy, because it's the standing policy that any nation can pursue the tools of national defense. Hell, the LSR doesn't even have a long range strategic deployment system, unlike, say, the Red Technocracy.

So now you're pissed that the LSR won't willingly share military and industrial secrets to a group of countries that has made repeated violations of it's sovereignty, and has put a plume of radioactive dust into the air.

Get over it.

[Dave]

Protesters are understandable. But N'Ton actually called to BAN all nuclear weapons. He didn't do anything before OMSK tested the device.

I've been calling for a full NBC ban since April 8th, Stas. I haven't been very vocal about it since no-one listens, but I have proposed it. And to be precise, I did not call for a ban in my "Riot and Press Release" post, but a letter of censure, a written reprimand from those concerned parties who condemn the nuclear test.
Please read it again if you did not see that.

Oh, and why are you afraid of that? Why would you be targeted? You're an OMSK trade partner and you supply a crucial resource; you're a neutral and have nothing to fear; our targeting plans are not directed against nations that pose no threat.

You and I know I am a neutral country. You and I know you have no reason to nuke my country. I was not implying that you were going to nuke my country or that I was worried that you would. I was merely trying to answer your public question as to the reason the outcry that occurred.

I was only trying to find a reason for the reaction you saw, and I had hoped that people would see my post, slow down, and calm down. But I see we have blown things out of proportion.


Look, Coyote was right in his RAR-side statement; everybody, even the Dutchys, was making big plans. Lonestar slipped under most people's radar. It was swamped with (just examples, please don't try to quote me or call me out on this) space programs, supercolliders, tourist resorts, maglev bullet trains, other nuclear programs and everything else.

[K. A. Pital]

Was that suppose to be a past-tense statement?

Yes, you were concealing it. Of course right now it's not concealed, but you did conceal it.

The Government of the Lone Star Republic acknowledged for the first time that there is an active nuclear weapons program taking place

That, was AFTER you ran the tests, wasn't it Lonestar?

So what; "OPSEC"? Fine. We'll conduct the necessary secret nuclear testing on the other side of the fucking New Earth so that you'll have nothing on it.

Your tests were on PAGE FUCKING 3, and you "announce" your program on Page 12?

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... nd#2751795

No, I stand by my decision to sever all ties.

[Beowulf]

Note: city names may not match up with where they are in the real world. If they did, I'd be in danger of earthquakes.

[K. A. Pital]

But I thought you at least maintain the general population density/distribution in your country?

As you have the Japan territory, I find it unlikely Hokkaido is populated densely enough to actually hit a city with a MiG-25 size drone. I would actually understand if it crashed over whatever analogue of Tokyo or mainland Japan which are filled up with people and highly urbanied - if it were actually launched over mainland Tian Xia, which it was not.

But it only could touch the Hokkaido island. I just suggest you admit there were no victims because Hokkaido is really sparse with population.

I did not expect Shep to join OMSK

Dude, Shep was one of the FOUNDERS of OMSK.

[Beowulf]

But I thought you at least maintain the general population density/distribution in your country?

As you have the Japan territory, I find it unlikely Hokkaido is populated densely enough to actually hit a city with a MiG-25 size drone. I would actually understand if it crashed over whatever analogue of Tokyo or mainland Japan which are filled up with people and highly urbanied - if it were actually launched over mainland Tian Xia, which it was not.

But it only could touch the Hokkaido island. I just suggest you admit there were no victims because Hokkaido is really sparse with population.

Japan has a population of 127 fucking million! There's no reason for Tian Xia to have the same population density/distribution. Real life Hokkaido has a sparse population because it wasn't really settled by the Japanese until the 1860s!

[K. A. Pital]

Japan has a population of 127 fucking million!

So your island is 5 times less densely populated. And you're telling me my drone fell on a city in Hokkaido?

*ponders* You know, there's just around 1800-2000 km (from Omsk across UKB and into Lonestar) the drone traverses before it terminates outside of Lonestar's republic.

So unless you actively shot it down from Hokkaido, how could it fall?

EDIT: I just realized that even if you shot it down over Hokkaido and killed your own people by doing it, I can pay you reparations. So what is your amount for an incident you're most likely caused yourself?

Note: once again specifically that we only closed relations with Lonestar

we don't need to evacuate anyone from other MESS nations, unless they all summarily cease relations.