SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Akhlut]

Plus, there's the fact that the USSR is getting a massive infusion of military hardware from Mongolia. As in, the industrial equivilent of building a 75,000 ton ship per quarter is being sent to the USSR from Mongolia. Surely that has to be helping their war effort considerably. We might not be sending men to aid, but we're certainly sending more material then what Manchuria is receiving from anyone.

EDIT: Also, since China isn't even talking to Mongolia about a potential port, we'd be putting diplomatic pressure on the USSR to continue their war until they win a few ports from Manchuria so they can cede one to Mongolia.

[Steve]

China has not signalled any willingness to support Manchuria more than it already does. Not detaching, but China has not declared war either.

Even so, China will not permit the USSR to take Manchurian land. Even if the Soviets beat a Manchurian army invading the trans-Baikal, the Chinese will be there to hold them at the Amur and Argun.

Please. The best thing to happen to the Soviets would be if the Manchus try to attack soviet soil, overextend their supply lines etc. This has been basic soviet strategy since day 1.

And aside from beating back a Manchurian Army, what does this accomplish? If they try to enter Manchuria, Chinese troops are there to back blocking them.

Yeah, but the soviets are an NPC nation, meaning that they won't make any moves. In any case, soviet losses so far have been miniscule, so I see no reason they would make a humiliating peace treaty now. Especially since knowing that it was such a humiliating peace treaty that toppled the Tsar in the first hand. You do not appear to have thought this through very much, especially not with regards to the internal dealings of the SU. If the SU fails in this war, there might just as well be massive internal wars., Eventually other powers will intervene, with Germany trying to restore the Russian Czar or one of the exiled Russian nobles to the throne, with the Balkans/Byzantium supporting the Soviet Union, and the Nordic Empire/Poland trying to capitalize on this as well as the Manchus. In short, the USSR just giving up is very much unlikely.

I do anticipate troubles for them internally, just as much because of the boneheaded decision to go to war as because of the peace.

Germany did not swallow the whole country, actually. Until 1928, the French should have far more of the gains made than Germany does. That said, how would the Soviet Union attack Germany? Germany will not attack the Soviet Union first, they just made a deal with them. The Balkans and Byzantium support the Soviet Union. So why exactly would they look elsewhere? Do you expect them to wage a war of aggression against Poland? Or the Nordic Empire?

The mere threat of invasion from the west - which has not mobilized at all due to neither Poland nor the Nordic Empire having made any moves so far - is just not enough.

I was referring to the whole alliance swallowing the ULC. Nor did I say the Soviets would attack Germany or vice versa, I said they would be concerned about the shift in the balance of power.

Y'know, let's just be blunt, and I'll say to you what I've been meaning to say for weeks but avoided because I wanted to phrase it just right: between your initiatives, Bean's post-and-run time in the game, and Baerne's passivity, you have broken Europe. Well, arguably it could be said you've won the game, but you've also broken it. Germany is unassailable. France is allied to you. Tuscany is virtually allied. Spain and Portugal are friendly. Britain has that NAP, even if your conquest of the Low Countries realistically brought down the Government that approved it (centuries of British Continental diplomacy down the drain!). The Nordics and Poland are hardly in a position to oppose Germany and France, particularly because Slack agreed to keep his border with you demilitarized (which was foolish of him, but we were both eager to end that horrid territorial dispute). Hell, your attitudes toward Czech and Slack have generally chased them out of the game; after all, what point is there in Slack hanging around if the only thing he can do is sit perfectly still and hope not to antagonize you and/or the Russians? As for the Aegean powers, they can probably slow your alliance down and economically punish it by cutting you from Suez, but they're in no position to restore Europe's balance of power. And that's not even touching the fact that you and I have an IC association that lets Germany maintain security in the Pacific backed by arguably the Pacific's strongest Navy.

So yes, Russia has a reason to be worried in Europe, even if they have some nice trade treaties with the Germans. Especially, again, because they know as well that Poland's frontier with Germany is unfortified and that if Germany decides to attack Poland is in for a world of hurt, and it will likely result in the "balance" of power becoming even more skewed.

Yeah, guess how very much appreciated I feel now considering that all the hours I put into this just got erased - and I do not even get a PM like "Hey, we consider this, what do you think about it?" Meanwhile, apparently, it is just fine and dandy to talk this through in great detail with Beo. You know how this looks?

It looks as if you had decided right from the start how this war would play out. So why was there a need for me to invest my spare time in this?

That's not quite the case, but I understand how you see it, and I offer my apologies for wasting your time. We should have just imposed a peace with Beo from the start, but we let some indecision hold us back. As a result you got brought into this and took the time to set things up. Again, I apologize for that.

[Steve]

Plus, there's the fact that the USSR is getting a massive infusion of military hardware from Mongolia. As in, the industrial equivilent of building a 75,000 ton ship per quarter is being sent to the USSR from Mongolia. Surely that has to be helping their war effort considerably. We might not be sending men to aid, but we're certainly sending more material then what Manchuria is receiving from anyone.

EDIT: Also, since China isn't even talking to Mongolia about a potential port, we'd be putting diplomatic pressure on the USSR to continue their war until they win a few ports from Manchuria so they can cede one to Mongolia.

What do you mean you want a port? You want a port in that it'd be declared tariff or duty-free for imports and exports out of Mongolia, with a rail and road line under the same rules? Or you want one ceded to you as territory?

[Akhlut]

Plus, there's the fact that the USSR is getting a massive infusion of military hardware from Mongolia. As in, the industrial equivilent of building a 75,000 ton ship per quarter is being sent to the USSR from Mongolia. Surely that has to be helping their war effort considerably. We might not be sending men to aid, but we're certainly sending more material then what Manchuria is receiving from anyone.

EDIT: Also, since China isn't even talking to Mongolia about a potential port, we'd be putting diplomatic pressure on the USSR to continue their war until they win a few ports from Manchuria so they can cede one to Mongolia.

What do you mean you want a port? You want a port in that it'd be declared tariff or duty-free for imports and exports out of Mongolia, with a rail and road line under the same rules? Or you want one ceded to you as territory?

Ideally the second (with a duty/tariff-free rail and road line connecting to it), but we'll take the first if we can't get our own port.

Plus, we'd like for this war to continue for some realpolitik reasons. This war is already putting the USSR into heavy debt with Mongolia, and Manchuria is going to need aid after this, too. We know we'll have the USSR giving us a lot of help, and if we help rebuild (and possibly even fortify their Soviet border), we'd be creating a strong base of power in Central Asia, especially since China seems to be going for a very 'hands-off' approach to everything. If we can win the war in Afghanistan and play the Soviet-Manchu War the way we want it, Mongolia could make itself into a world power, as opposed to just a regional one.

[Steve]

Well, I don't see why China might not give you the first, well, up until you started pumping aid to the Soviet Union. But with the war over, if you stop doing that they may be open to talks. But you won't get it for free.

[Thanas]

Even so, China will not permit the USSR to take Manchurian land. Even if the Soviets beat a Manchurian army invading the trans-Baikal, the Chinese will be there to hold them at the Amur and Argun.

The problem is that China has not announced that intention ingame. If China does make such a diplomatic initiative, I agree that the USSR has to sue for peace.

I do anticipate troubles for them internally, just as much because of the boneheaded decision to go to war as because of the peace.

Don't blame Stas for this. Let us not kid ourselves here and remember what actually happened - Stas thought the border was far less defended that Beo's OOB indicated at the time. Also, at the time, it was not made clear that China would intervene en masse. So don't go acting as if Stas was somewhat an idiot for this.

I was referring to the whole alliance swallowing the ULC. Nor did I say the Soviets would attack Germany or vice versa, I said they would be concerned about the shift in the balance of power.

Yeah, but that is not enough to stop a war. Unless China announces that it will declare war on the soviets unless the soviets case, there is no way the USSR would back off.

Y'know, let's just be blunt, and I'll say to you what I've been meaning to say for weeks but avoided because I wanted to phrase it just right: between your initiatives, Bean's post-and-run time in the game, and Baerne's passivity, you have broken Europe. Well, arguably it could be said you've won the game, but you've also broken it.

Don't go around blaming me for that. Don't you even dare. If you want to have more of a struggle in Europe, then get off your behind and take NPC Britain and have it form some alliance with The nordic empire.

Hell, your attitudes toward Czech and Slack have generally chased them out of the game;

And don't you dare blame me for their inability to react to a changing game. If I am better at forming alliances than they are, that is their problem, not mine. Hey, here's a thought - you were perfectly willing to let Czech attack Stas and let Beo and Czech work in tandem. But nooo, not me and Bearne. Oh no, we two are not allowed to do so. Get off mine and Bearne's back.

after all, what point is there in Slack hanging around if the only thing he can do is sit perfectly still and hope not to antagonize you and/or the Russians?

I thought he and Czech have an alliance? Maybe try to draw Britain into this?

But where was this concern for the balance of power when you were perfectly fine with Czech and Beo coordinating (with Slacker being most likely a third wheel)?

Hey, here's another thought - their military forces outnumber mine. I also have only a defensive alliance with my neighbours. So maybe they could try and make a war? Try to get Russia on their side? Try and establish contacts with the Byzantines? But no. They just sit there not showing any kind of initiative at all. Don't blame me for that.

Heck, if I were in their shoes I would approach Britain and try and get it to withdraw from the NAP, try and get it to form at least a defensive alliance with them. Norway-Britain is an excellent strategic line to blockade the German coast from. Yeah, blockading Spain/France might be harder, but their port facilities will not be enough to handle the extra load from the German ports being blockaded.

But apparently, they have never thought about that.

As for the Aegean powers, they can probably slow your alliance down and economically punish it by cutting you from Suez, but they're in no position to restore Europe's balance of power.

And I am in no position to threaten them. They are three nations. At best, my bloc has four members. They are also a true alliance, I have only defensive alliances with my neighbours. Plus, Germany will be busy absorbing the low countries which will not happen overnight.

You really seem to operate under some kind of wrong pretenses here.

So yes, Russia has a reason to be worried in Europe, even if they have some nice trade treaties with the Germans. Especially, again, because they know as well that Poland's frontier with Germany is unfortified and that if Germany decides to attack Poland is in for a world of hurt, and it will likely result in the "balance" of power becoming even more skewed.

Actually, the frontier was demilitarized, not defortified. That means any attack into and from Poland will stall into that area for months before supply lines/depots/infrastructure can be established. It is not like I can walk into Poland and blitz my way to warsaw. If I attack Poland, they can very well marshal their forces behind the demilitarised zone.

Finally, there is a balance of power in Europe. It is the Aegean powers vs the Franco-German-Spanish alliance (maybe with Tuscany as well). Then there is the Warsaw Pact (Poland and the Nordic Empire). And eventually there is Britain, which might not have a continental ally, but it still is in a very good strategic position to cut off our trade.

So don't go around acting as if I have somehow destroyed all options for poor Czech and Slacker.

[Lascaris]

Y'know, let's just be blunt, and I'll say to you what I've been meaning to say for weeks but avoided because I wanted to phrase it just right: between your initiatives, Bean's post-and-run time in the game, and Baerne's passivity, you have broken Europe. Well, arguably it could be said you've won the game, but you've also broken it. Germany is unassailable. France is allied to you. Tuscany is virtually allied. Spain and Portugal are friendly. Britain has that NAP, even if your conquest of the Low Countries realistically brought down the Government that approved it (centuries of British Continental diplomacy down the drain!). The Nordics and Poland are hardly in a position to oppose Germany and France, particularly because Slack agreed to keep his border with you demilitarized (which was foolish of him, but we were both eager to end that horrid territorial dispute). Hell, your attitudes toward Czech and Slack have generally chased them out of the game; after all, what point is there in Slack hanging around if the only thing he can do is sit perfectly still and hope not to antagonize you and/or the Russians? As for the Aegean powers, they can probably slow your alliance down and economically punish it by cutting you from Suez, but they're in no position to restore Europe's balance of power. And that's not even touching the fact that you and I have an IC association that lets Germany maintain security in the Pacific backed by arguably the Pacific's strongest Navy.

It's an interesting strategic question is it not? Cisplatina had her own reasons of seeking alliances in Europe since Germany decided it is a fun idea to involve itself into Latin American politics. Pursuing the policy on the other hand... has its technical problems. We've allied with France. Then the French go and ally with the Germans making their value as a balance...problematic. Poles and Nordics are nowhere to be heard off. Britain an NPC doing nothing. Soviet Union an NPC. Which leaves the Aegean pact which also seems uninterested in playing balance of power games.

[Lonestar]

All the more reason to fort-up the entrance to the Gulf of Aden, if you ask me.

[Lascaris]

Finally, there is a balance of power in Europe. It is the Aegean powers vs the Franco-German-Spanish alliance (maybe with Tuscany as well). Then there is the Warsaw Pact (Poland and the Nordic Empire). And eventually there is Britain, which might not have a continental ally, but it still is in a very good strategic position to cut off our trade.

So don't go around acting as if I have somehow destroyed all options for poor Czech and Slacker.

I could volunteer to take over Britain if the moderators agree...

[MKSheppard]

Lets just fucking ignore steve and do our own thing.

BRING ON THE MANEATINGSPIDERS OF AFGHANISTAN!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You know what. The real problem with this game thus far is the certain problem of spineless players controlling large countries and not pulling their damn clout. Fuck, even PeZook has more spine that this, and that is saying fucking a lot.

[Akhlut]

Shit, the only reason I didn't go to war with Manchuria is because China was making threatening noises if I tried. However, now I'm wondering if that was entirely bluster-based, as opposed to being an actual threat of war. At this point, I feel like the only power in East Asia.

Oh well, time to drop the flea-bombs on Shepistan! I'm kind of hoping to really fuck everything up and accidentally start a world-wide plague. Then that might undo some of Germany's hegemony over Europe.

[loomer]

That's it, Akhlut... Play into the hands of the manspiders...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What are you two waiting for? Start lobbing every damn virus in the arsenal!

[MKSheppard]

You do realize that virus bombing is not exactly yet effective in the 1920s? There's a lot of stuff that has to be invented to make better attack vectors.

Unless of course, you infect those prisoners with bubonic plague, and then kick them out of a plane via parachute -- things get so much easier when the deliveree doesn't have to survive.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You do realize that virus bombing is not exactly yet effective in the 1920s? There's a lot of stuff that has to be invented to make better attack vectors.

Unless of course, you infect those prisoners with bubonic plague, and then kick them out of a plane via parachute -- things get so much easier when the deliveree doesn't have to survive.

The old method of dropping off diseased livestock still works, yes? Bird flu from chickens, mad cow from cows, bubonic plague from rats, or whatever?

[loomer]

That's part of why Afghanistan won't be deploying any bioweapons for at least two years - dev time to realize bombs aren't practical, sprays don't work right, and so forth. Then comes suicide bombers. with plague.

[CmdrWilkens]

Well, I haven't seen further rolls for the Panamanian bit and as for the Russo-Manchurian, we're drawing up a peace agreement.

Yeah that is because the little guy (3 months and still no sleep ) is keeping me occupied. I've basically got one...maybe two fresh waves to send against the Colombian line after which a ceasefire should be academic...but first I need to find the time to plan things out.

[Ryan Thunder]

Well, I haven't seen further rolls for the Panamanian bit and as for the Russo-Manchurian, we're drawing up a peace agreement.

Yeah that is because the little guy (3 months and still no sleep ) is keeping me occupied.

Well shit (probably literally, I guess.)

I've basically got one...maybe two fresh waves to send against the Colombian line after which a ceasefire should be academic...but first I need to find the time to plan things out.

So you're magicking in troops now? Does this mean I get to magick in a proper navy?

[CmdrWilkens]

Well, I haven't seen further rolls for the Panamanian bit and as for the Russo-Manchurian, we're drawing up a peace agreement.

Yeah that is because the little guy (3 months and still no sleep ) is keeping me occupied.

Well shit (probably literally, I guess.)

I've basically got one...maybe two fresh waves to send against the Colombian line after which a ceasefire should be academic...but first I need to find the time to plan things out.

So you're magicking in troops now? Does this mean I get to magick in a proper navy?

No amongst my engaged corps I've got 3 or so in the area who have not been engaged and whom I didn't shift to help defend the northern counter-attack. I probably have a single wave out of them and POSSIBLY (possibly) another wave out of my units that have been stationary for 2 days since the first wave of attacks but a couple of them were pretty badly mauled so I wouldn't have but maybe 3-4 Corps available.

[Ryan Thunder]

No amongst my engaged corps I've got 3 or so in the area who have not been engaged and whom I didn't shift to help defend the northern counter-attack. I probably have a single wave out of them and POSSIBLY (possibly) another wave out of my units that have been stationary for 2 days since the first wave of attacks but a couple of them were pretty badly mauled so I wouldn't have but maybe 3-4 Corps available.

Ah. We'll see how that goes.

[loomer]

I'd like to apologize for my general lack of activity as of late - been busy with work and recovering from the tooth extraction. I'm planning on doing a fairly sized 'slice of life' post from inside the PRA soon, showing the first signs of those cultural shifts.

[MKSheppard]

Don't forget the MANSPIDERS

[loomer]

Q1 1926 funding allotment made.

I've been researching new weapons for a good full year at this stage, so it'd be fair to have some of those prototypes issued to the frontline now, yeah?

And that big ramp up for the bioweapons is mostly to indicate the cost of Afghanistan importing experts and valuable medical technology they don't normally have. Investments after this are going to be more in the 30/40 range. Would a target goal of 400 for a feasible tularemia weapon be acceptable at this stage, as that'd require just under two years at an investment rate of 40 a year?

[loomer]

Gogo tiny little posts to deal with total silence!