SDN World 3 Commentary Thread I

[Minister of Pigeonry]

For now, assume you get 2.5 IBPs per 10 IBPs allocated for a year's time. IOW, if you spend 20 IBPs starting now for industrial expansion, in Q3 1926 you'll get 5 more IBPs.

Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up.

[Steve]

Note: IBP gain is capped at 20 IBP per annum ATM. So don't bother spending more than 80.

[RogueIce]

Note: IBP gain is capped at 20 IBP per annum ATM. So don't bother spending more than 80.

I wonder who made you come to that decision.

*whistles innocently*

[Steve]

I'd always considered the cap, since the last time I was asked about it, but yes, you reminded me to post it.

[loomer]

Since I'm down at Industry 2, how many IBPs total investment will it take for me to jump over to industry 3?

[Czechmate]

Since I'm down at Industry 2, how many IBPs total investment will it take for me to jump over to industry 3?

It *should* require that you build the difference in IBPs. If you can build twenty a year, it should take you five years to jump up.

But I guess you'd have to ask Steve.

[Steve]

Posted in rules discussion. However, considering loomer I may raise the caps slightly for lower industry score countries. Currently the cap would only allow 5 IBPs per year, so it'd take 20 years to go up an Industry level. It should take quite a while to go up in industrial strength - I may permit you a higher rate over that.

[RogueIce]

25 50 Regular Army officers resign from the Army and go to fight for Manchuria.

Meanwhile, the AYVB heads off to fight on behalf of the Soviets.

EDIT: Doubled the number of officers.

[CmdrWilkens]

I'm seeing a lot of semi-autos around. People wouldn't be happening to techrush, would they...?

In real life, not just this timeline, the Mexicans designed and deployed the first semi-automatic rifle in 1887, light machine gun variants (well maybe a pre-BAR variant) were in production by 1910 and various versions were in use up and through the 2nd World War. In other words a full on 20 round magazine fed semi-automatic gas operated infantry rifles would be commonplace in Mexico at the very least. The reason the Modelo 1908 and Modelo 1900 weren't more popular is the the Mexicans were in the midst of yet another revolution during the time after their development and thus manufacturing facilities were not readily available.

Not sure what Ryan's rifle is based off of but mine is, again, based on this design

[Ryan Thunder]

I don't even remember what my rifle is based on. IIRC my line of thinking was something like "This is a rifle that had X characteristics. Such-and-such a rifle was in production by this date that could do that, so there's precedent for it" or, as in the case of the pump-action rifle, "This is so mind-bogglingly simple that I can't imagine why nobody actually did it that I can find out about, so I'm going to go ahead with it anyway."

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm just going to assume I'm spending enough IBPs to keep up with the latest tech. I'm not really in the business of digging through wikis just to find the "ideal" gun.

[K. A. Pital]

So there's more Chinese fighting for Beowulf than Manchuria actually has forces in the region?

How did he stuff nine Chinese divisions into the salient around Lake Hulun? By magic? Not overdoing transport capacity, surely?

And incidentally, I want China to seriously reconsider. Did you really commit that many forces, Bluewolf? In that case, I might fear, I will have to issue an ultimatum to China.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

So there's more Chinese fighting for Beowulf than Manchuria actually has forces in the region?

How did he stuff nine Chinese divisions into the salient around Lake Hulun? By magic? Not overdoing transport capacity, surely?

And incidentally, I want China to seriously reconsider. Did you really commit that many forces, Bluewolf? In that case, I might fear, I will have to issue an ultimatum to China.

Bluewolf practically declared war on you. Hah.... This is a non-trivial war now Stas. Let lose the dogs of war?

[Beowulf]

So there's more Chinese fighting for Beowulf than Manchuria actually has forces in the region?

How did he stuff nine Chinese divisions into the salient around Lake Hulun? By magic? Not overdoing transport capacity, surely?

And incidentally, I want China to seriously reconsider. Did you really commit that many forces, Bluewolf? In that case, I might fear, I will have to issue an ultimatum to China.

There was already 2 there. Half of one was supporting line Yi against your breakthrough. It's gone. Each of the lines has (had) a narrow gauge rail line behind it in order to support the line. 2 sets of tracks * 8 days or so * 1 division/day = 16 divisions. Only half that got moved up into that area. And it's not the salient to the west of Lake Hulun, it's the salient between your forces to the east, and the Hailar He and your territory to the west, formed when you pushed southward to Hailar.

[Bluewolf]

So there's more Chinese fighting for Beowulf than Manchuria actually has forces in the region?

How did he stuff nine Chinese divisions into the salient around Lake Hulun? By magic? Not overdoing transport capacity, surely?

And incidentally, I want China to seriously reconsider. Did you really commit that many forces, Bluewolf? In that case, I might fear, I will have to issue an ultimatum to China.

Neither Numbers nor other attackers were China’s main challenge though. Speed was. The fortress lines were already getting broken, cut off and demoralized. If they fell then the Soviet army would gain ground fast, even if they hit another line of defence. China’s army was glorious with state of the art weapons and equipment with the numbers to back them up yet the infrastructure of both Manchuria and China had limits. Even now it was getting overcrowded and clogged in some areas with lesser capacity. Transport via sea helped alleviate this problem slightly yet it did not solve it by any stretch. The Chinese army’s high command knew that time was ticking.

So I was fair and included that. On top of that there has been a period where I I had not posted which would be a reasonable IC time frame.

Oh and troop wise?

A total of 240.000 (12 divisions) had been amassed who were now filling the Manchurian transport network.

[Steve]

The AIM chat where the roll for Operation Honglong's success was taken:

[00:17] sbbigsteve: Given he has 200,000 troops on that front, though logically some would be along the advancement zone....
[00:18] ciarantmj: Also add in the fact that I do have modern equipment and quite fresh troops
[00:18] sbbigsteve: With more reinforcements trickling in - could be 250,000 or more by the time of the counter-attack - I'd say 3-5 represents general failure. You bloody his troops but probably stop just short of closing the neck.
[00:19] ciarantmj: yeah
[00:19] sbbigsteve: As opposed to a 2 roll being complete failure, as in the Soviets stop the offensive cold.
[00:19] ciarantmj: 12 meaning total victory I guess
[00:19] sbbigsteve: 6-8 means general success; you will close off the neck before he can counter-attack but he will have time to withdraw forces.
[00:19] sbbigsteve: 9-11 mean a swift enough advance to create a significant pocket and which will cause larger casualties.
[00:20] sbbigsteve: 12 means your forces win a crushing victory.
[00:20] ciarantmj: KK
[00:20] MHui 421: alrighty
[00:20] nerd359: nerd359 rolled 2 6-sided dice: 3 4
[00:21] nerd359: 7

Stas, you can pull forces out - the Red Army will hold the attack just long enough to permit a fair withdrawal of at least half to two-thirds of the forces in the occupied sections of Hailar - or you can gamble on a counter-attack to relieve them.

[K. A. Pital]

So 12 divisions is all the Chinese forces present? Good. In that case I think I can handle this. And yeah, I misread the position of your forces, I thought they were in the West, in a salient that I actually aim to cut off by taking Hailar and the railway line going through that and to the West..

I'll see as to what my plans are. *Thinks* War requires much deliberation.

[Norade]

NM.

[loomer]

The increasing involvement of China is going to prompt another Afghani division to head to Russia for internal security purposes. There's a reason they're beginning the mobilization of all those reserves.

[Evincer]

Regarding the semi-automatic rifle discussion, yes, a number of designs existed prior to the Garand. There were two or three major types, recoil (and blowback) operated, and gas operated. The recoil operated designs (like the Remington Model 8 ) were limited by the recoil forces of the cartridge. Calculations revealed that to safely fire a .30_06, for example, a common recoil-operated rifle would have to weigh 27 lbs. So to keep the weight at 8 lbs or so, they used light rifle cartridges, carbine cartridges really. They had a maximum effective range of 200 yards or so. Rounds like .35 Remington were great for hunting or shooting through car doors, but they were not competitive with a Springfield at 500 yards. As semi-autos, however, they were very reliable, and even easy to field strip. Certain models were preferred for hunting in the jungle, which is why there is extensive private ownership of them in Bolivaria.

The gas-operated rifles tended to fire more powerful cartridges (the gas operated rifles became increasingly popular because they superseded the limitations of the recoil operated designs), but they were also more complex. They required more complex locking arrangements (one of the major elements of the Garand was its rotating bolt). The gas actions themselves were prone to fouling, and with corrosive ammunition primers, that fouling was a major problem. The early designs suffered from various reliability issues. The lack of an engineering history led to overcomplicated designs. Mass production methods had not necessarily caught up to the requirements of semi-automatic rifle gas systems either. So if people are designing or employing semi-automatic rifles prior to the Garand, they may suffer from one or more of the following problems
-dirty
-complicated field strip
-difficult to manufacture
-reliability issues
-cost (still a problem! But worse in some of the earlier designs.)
-training issues (especially if there is a complicated field strip)

[Evincer]

I also recognize that the difficulties of such weapons have been discussed in the main thread, such as the example of Mexico's rifle.

Short-recoil eventually allowed the development of fairly effective semi-automatic rifles in standard rifle calibers, such as the Johnson rifle, but that development did not occur until the late 1930s or so.

[K. A. Pital]

Okay, I have new plans for the war, given the new troop disposition. Expect my generals to scratch head for today, and a decent large war post by this evening or tomorrow morning.

Oh, and would a shell from a 150 mm gun on a ballistic trajectory even penetrate a 100 mm plate of armor? Could someone calculate that?

Finally - tank regiments of the era do not have 147 tanks, tank brigades do. Tank regiments have between 20 and 60 tanks. Or?

[Lascaris]

Um, Lascaris, while France didn't have WWI it did have the Franco-Dutch War.

Ok. But the technical feasibility is still there. The Meunier was actually pretty close in characteristics and mode of operation to the MAS-49 rifle, which in turn was supposed to have been MAS-40 sans the fall of France. So if people want the have semi-automatic rifles and Bren LMG equivalents, technically it should be feasible for any of the big industrial powers to have done so post 1915 or so. Of course sans major war after they start most may well be still be replacing older stocks of rifles a decade later.

[Coyote]

Sub-machineguns were developed during WW1, and in fact by this time the Thompson was available through the Sears & Roebuck catalog in the USA. But most issue rifles for the infantry were bolt-action, with the exception of some experimental semi-autos. Pump and lever-action are also available for those who wish.

But in regards to this, and looking for jets by the 1930's, why the rush? We chose this time frame so we couldn't start Armageddon too soon.

[K. A. Pital]

So, the USSR decided to retreat from Hailar. In total, I'd gather not many divisions would even be able to enter it (by day 10 the forces merely reached Hailar), certainly not more than nine-ten divisions or so. But no less than three infantry divisions were encircled judging by what is allowed to be removed out of it by Steve.

So, I put like 40 000 men (remember that my ID is slightly smaller than 15 000), in Hailar. But they are trying to break out from the city and rejoin the main forces - seeing as the Manchus and Chinese barely managed to encircle them, the link shouldn't be strong (2-3 divisions at the joining point), so the divisions' attempted breakthrough can be successful still (I'll await the roll on that).

The other 190 000 are turning westward rapidly and trying to press against the Manchurians' forces in the Hulun salient, which is being simultaneously attacked from Russian territory by another 60 000 men. Their task is to press the Manchurian forces inside the salient to the West, against the river, lake Hulun and if that fails and Manchurians try to evacuate forces by crossing the river, the Soviet Union shall press onward and attack these forces until they are enclosed and pushed to the Mongolian border, at which point they will have nowhere to retreat and be promptly destroyed. (I need a roll on the efficiency of that offensive as well).

In the North, my forces came to a halt and start utilizing Manchurian positions for their needs, as well as trying to get a permanent crossing. (so, I'm doing nothing, except reinforcing troops at the rate mentioned).