SDN World 3 Commentary Thread I

[Thanas]

Putsch is crushed, police crackdown starts. I have got quite the amusing end for Herr Hitler planned.....

[Norseman]

Very good! Very good indeed!

Now to see what happens to Benny the Moose and his jolly crew. If they survive I wonder if they'll try to make a run for it and if so where they'll run off to (Brazil or the USSR seems likely).

[Steve]

Shinn?

Industrial

Industrial improvements = 80 IBPs (+20 IBPs starting January 1926)

I capped it at 20 IBPs spent for the moment.

[Lascaris]

Note: IBP gain is capped at 20 IBP per annum ATM. So don't bother spending more than 80.

Ok I'm at a loss now. What are the caps after all? Spend 80 to get 20 or spend 20 to get 5?

[Steve]

....DUR. DUR. DUR.

Shinn, forget I said that. You're fine.

[Steve]

Stas, you got it wrong. It's not that the encirclement is weak, it's that it took long enough for it to happen that you had time to have pulled troops out of the pocket before the neck closed.

That said, I'll let you roll for a breakout attempt if you didn't pull them out but left them, but your odds won't be as good as you think.

Give me specifics of the other planned attacks, once I consider the Sino-Manchurian forces in the area I'll perform rolls for them as well.

Edit: NM, I see you were simply specifying what troops got out. My bad. Note that this doesn't mean the breakout will be any easier. I'll probably judge the roll by how long the escape route can be opened. A high roll means opened long enough that most of the force can get out; low rolls mean failure to open the route or it opens long enough to slip just a small percentage of the force out. Also, in either event, whoever is left in the pocket will likely have expended most of their remaining material in terms of ammo, fuel, etc. in the attempt and will likely be overrun and forced to surrender.

[Beowulf]

Stas, I don't see how your post makes sense. The following is a rough assumption of the control of the land, and the effects of the encirclement attack:


It's being overlaid on a current map, so it's not entirely accurate, but should be close enough. Yellow is the Manchu and Chinese forces. Red is obviously Soviet. Any forces you leave in the pocket are not only facing the forces doing the encirclement, but also the forces at Hailar. Any forces you take out result in them being across the river again.

[CmdrWilkens]

Regarding the semi-automatic rifle discussion, yes, a number of designs existed prior to the Garand. There were two or three major types, recoil (and blowback) operated, and gas operated. The recoil operated designs (like the Remington Model 8 ) were limited by the recoil forces of the cartridge. Calculations revealed that to safely fire a .30_06, for example, a common recoil-operated rifle would have to weigh 27 lbs. So to keep the weight at 8 lbs or so, they used light rifle cartridges, carbine cartridges really. They had a maximum effective range of 200 yards or so. Rounds like .35 Remington were great for hunting or shooting through car doors, but they were not competitive with a Springfield at 500 yards. As semi-autos, however, they were very reliable, and even easy to field strip. Certain models were preferred for hunting in the jungle, which is why there is extensive private ownership of them in Bolivaria.

The gas-operated rifles tended to fire more powerful cartridges (the gas operated rifles became increasingly popular because they superseded the limitations of the recoil operated designs), but they were also more complex. They required more complex locking arrangements (one of the major elements of the Garand was its rotating bolt). The gas actions themselves were prone to fouling, and with corrosive ammunition primers, that fouling was a major problem. The early designs suffered from various reliability issues. The lack of an engineering history led to overcomplicated designs. Mass production methods had not necessarily caught up to the requirements of semi-automatic rifle gas systems either. So if people are designing or employing semi-automatic rifles prior to the Garand, they may suffer from one or more of the following problems
-dirty
-complicated field strip
-difficult to manufacture
-reliability issues
-cost (still a problem! But worse in some of the earlier designs.)
-training issues (especially if there is a complicated field strip)

The Mondragon was first mass produced in 1901 and saw service repeatedly through WW1 and the Mexican Revolution, it would remain in service through WW2 and be the primary competitor to the BAR in the market for the squad level light machine gun. Given that the 1908 model cured most of the issues with dirt (in other words dirt it handled relatively well, it was moisture that defeated it) a revised 1920 or so model should be better equipped to handle moisture.

Bascially my point is that the Garand was NOT revolutionary.

[Beowulf]

Addendum: the alternate interpretation, that the offensive went upstream along the Hailar He, results in them coming into contact with your main force that's not made the second crossing into Hailar, in which case they can't make a counter attack, because they're still in contact with the force attacking your salient.

[Evincer]

The Mondragon was first mass produced in 1901 and saw service repeatedly through WW1 and the Mexican Revolution, it would remain in service through WW2 and be the primary competitor to the BAR in the market for the squad level light machine gun. Given that the 1908 model cured most of the issues with dirt (in other words dirt it handled relatively well, it was moisture that defeated it) a revised 1920 or so model should be better equipped to handle moisture.

Bascially my point is that the Garand was NOT revolutionary.

Yes, pretty much. Certainly, the Garand was not the first military-issued semi-auto rifle. And the Mondragon is not given enough props in the U.S.-centric history of firearms.

Arguably, on the other hand, the Garand WAS innovative, in that it was like the Model T Ford of semi-automatic rifles - something that readily worked and could be mass produced in the millions, for quickly-trained conscript soldiers. Everything that came before it was either less reliable, less robust, more complicated, more expensive, or more generally prone to failure (or all of the above.) The Garand benefited from nearly 20 years of development before it went into mass production.

I posted that Mexico recognized the problems with the rifle and fixed them because that was a good example of roleplaying. No doubt Mexico fixed the problems with dirt, and eventually moisture, as described. Even then, however, the action was more complicated than the Garand, check this section on "Operation"
http://www.cruffler.com/historic-february01.html

It would have required extensive redesign to be as simple, robust, and soldier-proof as the Garand. (Seven lugs!?!)

That aside, I don't think it's necessary to get that nitpicky. It makes sense that Mexico worked out the bugs with the design, and I was congratulating you for recognizing that. I just mention this because some would argue that the Garand probably does represent an improvement on the rifle. Given the concerns about tech rushing, I thought I should point out that the pre-Garand semi-auto rifles suffered from more problems than the Garand production-models did. You've recognized that and fixed the problems, at least to the extent that they can be fixed.

[CmdrWilkens]

Maybe I missed this earlier but why do the foreign arms sales qualify for IBP point boosts?

[Thanas]

Because they represent good gained in countertrade and of course the gain Germany made for selling its designs.

[loomer]

Who doesn't love a parliamentary punch-up?

[CmdrWilkens]

Because they represent good gained in countertrade and of course the gain Germany made for selling its designs.

Ahhh, I see, can I claim points based on Germany buying my rifles as they did in real life



I'm not at all serious, I figure my IBP budget isfine as is

[K. A. Pital]

So you weren't securing Hailar, but instead acting against the bulk of my forces, trying to encircle my entire 200,000 force? Crap, I'll have to re-make the plans all over - couldn't you've at least drawn a map first?

In case you're trying such a large attack (probably ~ 30 km wide front), I'll basically throw into battle all reserves, and try for another breakthrough + possibly a secondary attack. It's untenable to remove over 200 000 troops from your territory (no matter if it's allowed by Steve).

Moreover, it's pointless to do so. Hailar is critical to me.

[Ryan Thunder]

There's an independence movement in Panama? Since when?

[CmdrWilkens]

There's an independence movement in Panama? Since when?

Since 1831 at least based on the Wiki. I've seen nothing to disuade me from the idea that the same forces which attempted to secede from Gran Colombia several times are not still present. Looking through the history thread I've seen nothing which would suggest that you've somehow eradicated a movement that sustained itself over 80 years in real life so they might be smaller but yes I suspect with some money they can be disruptive.

[K. A. Pital]

Well, there you go. I changed the disposition and actions. 150 000 actively attacking from the West (with 40 000 assisting in holding the Argun breach, a total of 190 000 in the area), 200 000 breaking out the encirclement from the East.

So far the direct assault on Hailar has been abandoned. The forces are re-grouping and poised to renew the offensive as soon as a link between them and the mainland USSR is re-established.

15 000 men arrive daily at the Southern front and a slightly lower amount (around 13 000) at the Northern front which is currently standing still like I ordered it to.

I need rolls on two separate actions:

1) the ~190 000 force assault from the East, very close to the Soviet border, and the ~200 000 force pushing to break the encirclement - that is one action because regardless of which force succeeds, the 190 k one or the 200 k one, the link is re-established and these forces become a single force for all purposes.

2) the distraction assault at Manzhouli, 20 km front, 4 km per division density, 64 k men attacking in 5 infantry divisions.

[Steve]

Well, there you go. I changed the disposition and actions. 150 000 actively attacking from the West (with 40 000 assisting in holding the Argun breach, a total of 190 000 in the area), 200 000 breaking out the encirclement from the East.

So far the direct assault on Hailar has been abandoned. The forces are re-grouping and poised to renew the offensive as soon as a link between them and the mainland USSR is re-established.

15 000 men arrive daily at the Southern front and a slightly lower amount (around 13 000) at the Northern front which is currently standing still like I ordered it to.

Attacking from the West where? I'm not sure I follow what you're doing.

[Ryan Thunder]

There's an independence movement in Panama? Since when?

Since 1831 at least based on the Wiki. I've seen nothing to disuade me from the idea that the same forces which attempted to secede from Gran Colombia several times are not still present. Looking through the history thread I've seen nothing which would suggest that you've somehow eradicated a movement that sustained itself over 80 years in real life so they might be smaller but yes I suspect with some money they can be disruptive.

Okay, I wasn't aware of this.

Well it seems reasonable that the ones we haven't caught yet are good enough to keep this out of earshot of my police force. Throw me a bone?

[K. A. Pital]

Attacking from the West where? I'm not sure I follow what you're doing.

From the crossing at Argun at the former Manchurian-Soviet border which I secured.

The force disposition is as follows: there are ~12 rifle divisions, 4 cavalry divisions and 2 experimental tank brigades inside Manchuria (~200 000 men). There are 3 rifle divisions securing the very river crossing itself on Argun (~40 000 men). There are 12 cadre (i.e. non-reservist) rifle divisions transported during these 10 days, from the West, (~150 000 men) which are involved in an assault from the crossing point to re-join with the Soviet SWF (200 000 men) that has been cut off.

Man, I'll make a map.

[Steve]

Um, I thought only 40,000 or so troops got out? Or are you re-figuring that because of the higher axis of the Sino-Manchurian pincer on your advance line?

[K. A. Pital]

The "get out" ability is meaningless when we're talking about a 200 000 strong group that gets somehow encircled within one day - but you granted him that, so I have to work with that now. That doesn't happen so easily IRL; and a 200 000 strong force cannot just "retreat" 90 km back in the space of one or two days. That takes at least three and a half-days of march. If, however, you grant me an extra day before he completes his operation, then the 200 000 can at least move to the river and try and stage some sort of defence.

I thought he only aimed to encircle those of my forces which entered Hailar - that made sense, that can be accomplished within one day and all that; however, he aimed to encircle the entire group of my forces, apparently striking very close to my initial crossing point.

Which forces are which? Well, I'll plot them on the map and try and see if that's close to what we're looking at.

The 40 000 are the forces I meant to leave at Hailar if he aimed for a small encirclement.

[Beowulf]

The encirclement probably would not have taken one day. If you want to bring your forces back to the river to attempt to mount a defense, that's an option... but you almost certainly will take significant losses as you disengage from the forces at Hailar. And those forces will continue to chase you as you retreat back to the river.

Encircling the troops which had entered Hailar doesn't make much sense, since it's forces a battle between mine and the strength of your army, not the weak point.

[Ryan Thunder]

Hey, guys, you do realize the Canal is defended by not one, but two large coastal fortresses at either end, right?