Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[Simon_Jester]

I guess the thing is that the galleons are so weak that by implication, much smaller and not very heavily armed ships of other powers (like my Great Lakes sloops) could take them without any particular difficulty. If they are in fact the size of historical galleons, their sheer bulk, and the size of their crews and the number of admittedly light guns that they carry, should make them more dangerous than that. Even if they would be sure to lose to, say, a historical 44-gun frigate of the Napoleonic Royal Navy... they should probably at least be able to withstand a 20-gun sloop from that same navy. I would recommend increasing their point value to, say, 200 or 250 points.

When you think of sword saints, their point allocation is in regards to their abilities with weapons *and* ki magic/energy. By nature, most of them would be hermits, seeking out greater knowledge and understanding through communion with Nature and the gods; their minds beyond the minutiae of daily life. Those few that are actively part of normal life tend to be treated as the most trusted of companions or bodyguards. One does guard the Imperial Family, being a distant relation to them and bound therefore by blood. And yes, I am aware of how dangerous they could be in terms of dancing too close to OP. But it's more stylistic and I'd never be unreasonable. I've been in too many rps to think otherwise or not first discuss something with the players involved.

It's not a problem. You are not even the first person to assign that exact point value to individual superheroic people. That would be Jub, who conjured up a pair of them in story posts on the first page of the story thread, as I recall.

If the full history of my nation had been "pointed out," individuals of much higher personal point value would have appeared many times in its past, although they invariably vanish after the incident they specifically become involved in. I could also make a case for there being a single (reincarnating) hero of four-digit point value appearing in the past as well for extended periods, but he will not be appearing in this game. Though this particular eternal champion has strongly influenced the Order of the White Star, a chivalric order that may be appearing.

You are totally within your rights to do this thing- I just want to encourage you to be sure to portray these characters as the kind of grand, deadly, terrible force of nature that their power has the potential to make of them.

I'd be lying if there weren't any anime-related inspirations to these guys, nor historical influence (Miyamoto Musashi, Yagyu Sekishusai, et al). A close aproximation, in animated terms, would be the One Piece characters Dracule Mihawk and Roronoa Zoro.

I suggest that you also seek out non-Japanese inspirations as well. Diversity in one's reference pool is always a good thing.

The Court Sorcerers and Magicians are certainly the most unique. There are dozens, hundreds even, of acolytes who hope to inherit their power and knowledge, but it's guarded jealously...

I am hardly surprised. As far as I'm concerned, you are totally within your rights to do as you are doing. And indeed others have done so, and have even in one case written themselves possessing wizards even stronger than yours (that would be Aasharu's lich-lords of Tarn, the necromantic state that rules the Colorado Plateau).

The influence behind the choice of the sorcerers power level comes from old tales of wizards and such like Merlin, Raistlin, Dr. Strange, and Gandalf.

Well, Xazonar the eighth-planar being could probably do a very good job standing in for a balrog until something better came along. And one of your court wizards could have bested it without any great difficulty, so I think that's fair.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair enough. I think Simon has a point with the ships though.

[Esquire]

Yeah; I - not a prime naval nation by any means - have 74-gun ships worth 800 points and 26-gun galleys worth 200. Those are magically enhanced,to be sure, but still.

[Simon_Jester]

If nothing else, it bears considering that a land-based artillery battery capable of repelling a ship of the line would probably be worth several hundred points in a land battle in its own right.

[Esquire]

"I thank God that usury is forbidden to us; else my treasurer should have been entirely too much like that infernal Ohioan cardinal." - Sultan Osman IV Ghazi, Collected Sayings

Your people come up with the damnedest ideas, Simon. I, the humble scholar of Turkish New World history, use the term advisedly.

[Simon_Jester]

"Arbitrage" is in fact a French word.

But yes, a pair of Living-Star cardinals (Julia Mazzarini and her predecessor and mentor Adalie Duplessy) have been effectively running Ohio in the role of Chief Minister for about the last forty years, owing to the relative weakness of the monarchy under Louis the Ninth. It is not for nothing that Mazzarini enjoys the intimate confidence and trust of the empress dowager, Anna of Assiniboia, who was herself the regent until Louis reached his age of majority and formally assumed power a few years ago.

Mazzarini is, and Duplessy was, a gender-flipped counterpart of two of the people Terry Pratchett probably had in mind when he was constructing the character of Lord Vetinari. That should give you a reference point.

There have probably been a lot of people cursing their names in the Sublime Porte...

In this case, however, I will note that the true target of Cardinal Mazzarini's malice is Nicholas Fouquet, the Superintendent of Finances, who is prone to more than just gaming the Ohioan financial system for personal wealth. That is considered at the least 'perks,' and at the most good practice, for the top tier of the nobility, which is one of the reasons that they remain the top tier of the nobility, because they have the kind of money you can only make by skimming noticeable percentages of the government's income.

Thing is, Fouquet not only does it for himself, but also does it for a coterie of hangers-on and is building a lavish palace on the shores of Lake Erie besides.

The young king has grown weary of Fouquet, as perhaps illustrated in the council meeting back in January, and on this, his chief minister is in full agreement with him.

[Beowulf]

Beowulf is playing the Dragon Kingdoms (?) which cover the OTL Deep South of the US, and much of the Caribbean.<snip>

All the nations above, except for the elves in Vancouver, the hyenorks in the far north of Canada, and the thyrs of the Great Plains (think WoW orcs with iron discipline) are basically human.

There is at least some prior information affirming the existence of goblins and dragons. Anything is fair game, really. I have referenced there being, in various times and places, ogres, mermaids, giants, extraplanar demons, and probably other creatures unknown and unknowable. And that's just me personally- but I tried to be nonspecific as to where those creatures resided and so on, so as to leave others' options open.

Having read Abacus's infodump, I'll note that the Six Kingdoms (aka the Dragon Empire aka Drachenimperium) is generally human, but the aristocracy is generally superhuman (greater than expected strength, speed, endurance, toughness). Generally speaking, the aristocracy is the only class that can perform magic in the Six Kingdoms.

Dragon are more than affirmed in existence, but can regularly be seen in the Dragon Empire (whence the appellation comes). It's uncommon to see them up close, however, and they apparently have no interests in the human affairs any more, beyond the occasional meal of livestock. How this interacts with the great dragon lying near the Chesapeake is a good question.

If nothing else, it bears considering that a land-based artillery battery capable of repelling a ship of the line would probably be worth several hundred points in a land battle in its own right.

Potentially, yes. Though a land-based artillery battery would have several advantages over a ship of the line, the chief amongst them being: it can't sink. This fact is one of the major reasons why harbor defenses were relatively practical.

Oooo, galleons, how fun. As for not being on Orion's technology level, don't sweat it. I think I have the most powerful warships in the game at present.

And I'm building more

Eh, might be the most powerful warships, but not the most powerful navy.

[Abacus]

I guess the thing is that the galleons are so weak that by implication, much smaller and not very heavily armed ships of other powers (like my Great Lakes sloops) could take them without any particular difficulty. If they are in fact the size of historical galleons, their sheer bulk, and the size of their crews and the number of admittedly light guns that they carry, should make them more dangerous than that. Even if they would be sure to lose to, say, a historical 44-gun frigate of the Napoleonic Royal Navy... they should probably at least be able to withstand a 20-gun sloop from that same navy. I would recommend increasing their point value to, say, 200 or 250 points.

It's one reason why I usually avoid too many close approximations in regards to "points". That said, I could easily just create a dozen stronger ships, if truly needed. I'm personally seeing myself as a land-based power anyway.

[Esquire]

Mazzarini is, and Duplessy was, a gender-flipped counterpart of two of the people Terry Pratchett probably had in mind when he was constructing the character of Lord Vetinari. That should give you a reference point.

Oh, I'm well aware of who your characters are based on - 100%-Not-Vauban is still my favorite, probably. I can appreciate a good historical reference when I see it.

[Simon_Jester]

Oh, I'm well aware of who your characters are based on - 100%-Not-Vauban is still my favorite, probably. I can appreciate a good historical reference when I see it.

Heh. Sorry.

I just like talking about this, you know... and it's been so stupidly long since a lot of the action that I'm trying to remind people what's going on. And, for that matter, trying to remind myself.

Dragon are more than affirmed in existence, but can regularly be seen in the Dragon Empire (whence the appellation comes). It's uncommon to see them up close, however, and they apparently have no interests in the human affairs any more, beyond the occasional meal of livestock. How this interacts with the great dragon lying near the Chesapeake is a good question.

For that matter, the 'great dragon' might not be a dragon at all. If a secret supernatural entity stays buried under wraps for millenia, with only a handful of select people even allowed to know or say anything about it... The odds are VERY good that anything they claim to know about that entity will be a self-serving lie.

If nothing else, it bears considering that a land-based artillery battery capable of repelling a ship of the line would probably be worth several hundred points in a land battle in its own right.

Potentially, yes. Though a land-based artillery battery would have several advantages over a ship of the line, the chief amongst them being: it can't sink. This fact is one of the major reasons why harbor defenses were relatively practical.

It surely would- but the point is that a battery of ten nine-pounder guns would be pretty badass in a land battle all by itself, rather than being some kind of feeble lightweight irrelevant thing that struggles to defeat a platoon of soldiers. So a floating ship that carries ten nine-pounder guns on a side would also be rather threatening.

Likewise, hundreds of sailors and marines with guns and cutlasses would be a pretty significant force in a land battle; implicitly, so is the ship that carries them.

I guess the thing is that the galleons are so weak that by implication, much smaller and not very heavily armed ships of other powers (like my Great Lakes sloops) could take them without any particular difficulty. If they are in fact the size of historical galleons, their sheer bulk, and the size of their crews and the number of admittedly light guns that they carry, should make them more dangerous than that. Even if they would be sure to lose to, say, a historical 44-gun frigate of the Napoleonic Royal Navy... they should probably at least be able to withstand a 20-gun sloop from that same navy. I would recommend increasing their point value to, say, 200 or 250 points.

It's one reason why I usually avoid too many close approximations in regards to "points". That said, I could easily just create a dozen stronger ships, if truly needed. I'm personally seeing myself as a land-based power anyway.

My concern is just that you're making these galleons such easy targets that they are going to be pushovers. That doesn't sound very realistic; it would make more sense to have fewer of them that were worth 200-300 points each, and/or commit more points to them. That way, they would at least be able to repel the attack of the lightest warships they're likely to face (sloops) and pose some kind of meaningful threat of inflicting actual harm on medium warships (frigates).

[Simon_Jester]

400 points is fairly reasonable, given the sheer size of the crew and the volume of fire they can put out. If they are heavily constructed enough to not get smashed to pieces by the first salvo of cannon fire, then they are, if nothing else, very dangerous in a boarding action.

Since you didn't really answer my question earlier, I'd like to follow up on something in your post:

Is Nara-Kyo a 'major port city' I could use for my purposes, as a name? Where is its location in terms of OTL cities? The closest I can think of would be the Hampton Roads area, where the James River's broad estuary lets into the Chesapeake, but you may have a different location in mind.

[Abacus]

It's a port city, yes, but not one which you'd be allowed entrance to without written permits. Nara-Kyo is located basically where IRL Arlington and Washington D.C. are located. If you're looking for another of *my* cities to arrive at, then you can arrive at a city called 'Sakai' which is located in the Hampton area. If you attempted to go further into the bay without halting there, you'd be followed and tracked by at least a squadron of ships.


You'd also hope you have an interpreter that can speak the local language. I'm not assuming that there is some sort of "common tongue".

[Simon_Jester]

I will note that, just for the record, the Washington D.C. area is a really bad place to put a capital city in real life. Historically, the "district of Columbia" was a hundred square miles of miserable, malarial swampland that George Washington obtained as part of a botched land speculation deal. It wasn't particularly desirable for agriculture and the climate is really rather bad (British diplomats used to get hazard pay for 'tropical areas')

The main reason the US has its capital there is that when the nation was founded, no one could agree to put the capital in any existing city because that would give the corresponding state an advantage. So obvious candidates like Richmond, Annapolis, New York, Boston, and Philadelphia (some of which had been the capital at least temporarily) were not eligible. So they decided to build an entirely new capital on the border between two existing states in otherwise largely unsettled country.

And, well, George Washington just happened to own a hundred square miles of land he wasn't using for anything...

Then again, you have enough freedom to manipulate the terrain that you can easily 'improve' the area along the Potomac enough that sensible people might want to build a capital there.

I will note that it is really not very likely that your nation can maintain the level of impenetrability to foreigners that historical Japan had, because it shares land borders with thickly populated country to the north and south and moderately populated country to the west. It's not an island.

I can imagine that the empire has protectionist measures in play to ensure that trade on the Chesapeake Bay is dominated by Nihon-owned shipping. But realistically there will be a certain level of foreigners moving around in the major cities of your empire, just as historically there were

Personally, I see no reason to assume there is a "common tongue." Historically, Europe in this era at least had Latin and Greek, but there is no precursor civilization recent enough to be that.

Each of the major human polities probably has at least one major language. Or family of languages, in the case of Ohio, one dominant language plus several regional dialects that are close to mutually unintelligible.

Off the top of my head, there should be... Turkish and/or Arabic, "Ohioan" which sounds a lot like French, something in the Drachenimperium that sounds a lot like German, "Orion" which is my favorite candidate for "sounds like English," and now "Nihonese" which is obviously Japanese with the serial numbers filed off.*

Given the history (which is that the Ohioan language family was introduced to the region by nomadic cultures sort of like how the Germanic tribes overran the Roman Empire)... Ohioan-family languages are probably spoken in some areas near the Ohio river valley that are not part of the empire proper, but the languages of that family may well bear no more resemblance to the Ohioan my noble characters speak than Italian does to French.

Given that this is pre-industrial times there are, again, probably a lot of regional dialects so distinctive as to constitute their own languages.

They probably have a wealth of totally bizarre and unknown languages that sound like none of the major dominant continental tongues in the Appalachians, for instance.
_________________

*At the moment, I'm rationalizing this by imagining it as actually a mutant Native American Siberian-descended language and that the stereotypically east Asian appearance of the people is the result of that particular cross-blend of Atlantean and Siberian ancestry. If you want to say "oh, to heck with your silly backstory, Simon," you are fully in your rights to do so.

[Abacus]

Even it had been swampy at one point, it's been hundreds of years since that was the case. City development will have drained said swampy land and renovated it.

And yes, I'm aware that I won't be able to have complete isolation -- that's not what I'm seeking -- but I will certainly be able to control the influx of foreigners into my territory; especially since I've no border contiguous with any other border (yet) and while my navy won't be knocking any doors down, it's more than enough for me to dominate the Chesapeake Bay; coupled with fortresses at key points along it's mouth. That is what I'll be doing and why any ship you send will be boarded, inspected, and brought to Sakai to await permission either to continue onward or do what trade you can there in Sakai.

I've got quite a sophisticated bureaucracy to draw upon for keeping track of foreigners - especially within my major cities. Again, depending on where in my empire you're traveling, a foreigner's freedom of movement will be limited to a greater or lesser degree.

Far as language goes, I'm sure I'll have some translators on hand -- required to serve to help interact with foreign ships or peoples.

[Simon_Jester]

Speaking generally about the language issue, there will also be more multilingual people in general. Historically, regions like the Appalachians in real life tend to become jigsaws of language diversity because travel is difficult and invading armies usually can't displace the culture of the locals. This is probably how, for example, Basque became the only surviving non-Indo-European language in Europe; the Basque country is rugged enough that while the Basques were conquered, they were never displaced.

In places like that, it is much more common to speak multiple languages, because the requirements of commerce and intermarriage demand it. And, again, there is the issue of mutually incomprehensible dialects, which was a common experience in pre-modern societies before the rise of mass communication, mass literacy, and mass education.

As to borders- Imperial528 has a nation that is a confederacy of... frankly ill-defined things directly to your north. As far as I'm concerned his nation continues to exist unless someone else decides to move in on it, even though he never really did anything with it. The territory to your south, aside from the Drachenimperium, is presumably still populated and inhabited, though it may or may not be by humans for all I know. Swamp-monsters or something might make a nice change of pace.

[Abacus]

I am aware of that, and the coastal plains of Virginia and the north-eastern Appalachians -- the Spanish mountains of Northern Spain they definitely are not. The language diversity is as much dependent upon the society that created said language as it is the geography that defines the land that said population inhabits.

I wasn't aware that Imperial528 was there. Was he ever on the map? I'm fine with him being there, but I'd certainly appreciate knowing the boundaries of where he was -- as that kind of inhibits what I can start rp'ing if there's this grey zone I can't move into or encounter on my northern border (or near it).

I figured on having wild tribes of orcs or goblins being in the southern mountains near me -- a constantly danger that requires close attention.

[Simon_Jester]

He's on the maps linked in the "map thread," it's just that the name of his nation isn't written for space reasons. Look for the country south of Orion but north of the Chesapeake.

I looked closely at his southern border before you joined; I suspect you've actually taken a slim bite out of his previous southern frontier but I don't think it'll be a problem. Basically, he's directly on your north. I suggest PMing him and maybe we can get him up and running again.

As to language diversity, well, it can depend heavily on historical happenstance. Mountainous regions don't have to be massively rugged to preserve high language diversity- they just have to be remote and rugged enough that they don't get squashed by 'steamroller' events involving mass conquest and the total destruction of the peoples already living there.

I don't know about your part of the mountains, but that's definitely a factor in mine- there are areas nominally under Ohioan control where the local nobility is still very much wrestling with that, and where the cultural differences are strong enough to create things quite different from mainstream Ohioan society.

[Abacus]

Speaking of...what's been happening recently in world events? Any *major* wars or international incidents?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Nothing major AFAIK. Simon is gearing up to lay siege to Detroit (possibly with my assistance), my Navy has been fighting pirates and preparing for war against the Chesapeake Bay faction (before you appeared anyway). The Elves are migrating and the Hyenorks are raiding, business as usual I think.

[Abacus]

There is still a rogue city-state (hive of villainy) in that area -- but they're not *in* the Chesapeake Bay. They're more like over by where IRL Ocean City is located on the Delmarva Peninsula. If you like, we could stage an encounter between one of my samurai clans and your own expedition?

[Simon_Jester]

Out of curiosity, are they rogues in the sense that they are claimed by your empire but not restrained and controlled by it? Or are they rogues in that you do not actually claim them as part of your territory?

[Abacus]

They're not part of my empire, but my empire would like to see them humbled and at some point, likely taken over.

[Eternal_Freedom]

There is still a rogue city-state (hive of villainy) in that area -- but they're not *in* the Chesapeake Bay. They're more like over by where IRL Ocean City is located on the Delmarva Peninsula. If you like, we could stage an encounter between one of my samurai clans and your own expedition?

Sounds interesting. Perhaps one of my Frigates was heading their to land a Marine recon force and meets one of your ships off the coast?

[Simon_Jester]

They're not part of my empire, but my empire would like to see them humbled and at some point, likely taken over.

This invites the question, why hasn't that already happened?

I am in a similar situation with respect to Detroit, and my answer is "the previous king was ineffectual, it was all a string of brilliant ministers could do to hold the country together and not actively lose ground to rivals and threats on the borders, and after he died around ten to fifteen years ago we spent most of the intervening time fighting a round of civil wars."

So asking the question "why hasn't Detroit already been captured" helped me expand on the recent history of my nation. Maybe you could try a similar exercise and get different, but still interesting, answers?

[Beowulf]

They're not part of my empire, but my empire would like to see them humbled and at some point, likely taken over.

This invites the question, why hasn't that already happened?

I am in a similar situation with respect to Detroit, and my answer is "the previous king was ineffectual, it was all a string of brilliant ministers could do to hold the country together and not actively lose ground to rivals and threats on the borders, and after he died around ten to fifteen years ago we spent most of the intervening time fighting a round of civil wars."

So asking the question "why hasn't Detroit already been captured" helped me expand on the recent history of my nation. Maybe you could try a similar exercise and get different, but still interesting, answers?

The usual easy answer to this is that the pirate-state is under the protection of a larger state, so you can hit the pirates on the high seas, but it's hard to actually destroy their base of operations.

A possible answer is that this rogue city state was under the protection of Abacus, but they're recently started to become too much of a pain for them to countenance anymore. Maybe they started to prey on their ships of their benefactors? Cost of supporting them was greater than the benefits?