SDN World 3 Commentary Thread I

[RogueIce]

I quit the game. Too much bother trying to keep it realistic, when someone's just inventing copouts.

I'm going to say this now. The USSR belongs to Stas Bush as a player. If he quits, the game mods will decide what happens to it. Anybody trying to "claim" Russia or divide it up will not be recognized. Steve, TimothyC and myself will decide its fate if Stas truely wishes to leave for good.

[K. A. Pital]

Such is something for Bluewolf and the mods to hash out

Has he even posted the composition of these divisions? No - you did. Bluewolf hasn't even got an OOB. You're copping out.

Nice, teleporting reinforcements into the breach specifically to stop the breach from getting recaptured

How am I "teleporting" anything, don't be a moron. The reinforcements arrived daily by rail (and some are placed in defensive positions along the border since long) and there's about, wait... less than 1 km from the rail lines to the breach - these have like, 20 km to march to the other side and get involved in the fighting, done in less than 1 day actually. There's also around 20 km from the surrounding border defensive positions to the breach. Um... yeah. That's also possibly covered in less than one day on-march through my own Soviet territory.

The divisions were specified as moving at night

And trains move without sound, without light and without shit. Damn. And I thought people could like, play this game.

My forces are not insufficient if you've got enough troops to be able to start entering Hailar.

I started shelling the city and my forward units arrived at the city.

Contrary to what you think, there's a density of 3 km per division and divisions behind the advancing ones to reinforce them; the density is enough for an offensive on such a front. I had little idea how many forces you concentrated at Hailar; it's understandable that I couldn't move the entire 200 000 or so on the very forward pinnacle of the attack.

You're being deliberately obtuse and thus the game ends.

[Steve]

Stas, I permitted people to start with 20,000 man divisions if they so chose, but their forces still had to come in under the manpower limit derived from the Mob Pool-Army Focus-SML system.

I do agree that this illustrates why everyone who hasn't yet should post an OrBat.

And I believe Beo is operating under the assumption that in the 10 days it took you to get to Hailar his forces and Chinese units moved up his rail lines - do remember he's a 5 in Infrastructure so he'd have a good mobilization time. That said, the encirclement attack should have consumed most of his supplies and leave him needing time to restore them before recommencing operations.

And IIRC only 50-100,000 troops were actually near Hailar, since the Soviets would logically leave divisions spaced out to hold taken ground. Just that the Sino-Manchurian attacks cut across their neck.

[K. A. Pital]

And IIRC only 50-100,000 troops were actually near Hailar, since the Soviets would logically leave divisions spaced out to hold taken ground. Just that the Sino-Manchurian attacks cut across their neck.

That's what I reasoned too. But his initial offensive density is nowhere near enough to be anything like a decisive superiority. He's assaulting the breach with merely 4 divisions from the south, when there's 3 divisions holding it (and these have permanently occupied the former Manchurian defensive positions) and another 2-3 being on march passing through this very breach to reinforce the Soviet assault. And some just present in the Soviet territory near it - they're like what, doing nothing when reinforcing is a matter of 12-18 hour march?

Moreover, he's moving not divisions, but CORPS in mere days. Right. With corps artillery, as he specified.

Was nice playing.


That's what I was able to gather with his attack plan. Doesn't look like the supermacy is overwhelming, really. Or any huge supremacy at all for that matter.

[Ryan Thunder]

Ryan, please read the story thread. Trust me, it will be enlightening.

Okay, but... the fuck? Do the Low Countries even have any assets in the Carribean that I'm just not seeing on the map? XD

Curacao and Surimane, where quite a potent fleet is stationed.

Hey wait a minute. Curacao is less than 75 km off my coastline, and less than 300 km away from my goddamned capital. Who's the genius who allowed Karmic to station a large fleet there, much less own it in the first place?

That's so close to my shore, I assumed it was mine anyway!

Hell I could probably shoot it from the shore!

[Norade]

Actually when did you send an ultimatum? Near as I can tell Germany and France sent declarations but I never saw one from Portugal. Did I miss something?

I didn't send one actually. This was more of a go in under somebody else ultimatum and make a land grab than anything else. I was basing my attack of the expiration of the ultimatum sent Germany, an nation I can be considered close with. I expect political fallout from it, but so long as I don't piss off my allies too bad I figured this would give my soldiers some ground combat experience and might be lost as the first attack of a larger battle.

Okay then, I'll be blunt with a repeat of my previous statement. If for no other reason than because countries with their roots in the European Enlightenment which would mean all of Europe and most of the nations of the Western Hemisphere would find base land grabs to be base thievery...if you attack the Dutch without warning and for no other cause than that of aiding the French and German Empire you WILL receive and ultimatum from Mexico and I will blow every merchant ship flying your flag out of the Panama Canal straight to the bottom of the sea (after giving fair time to abandon ship)...In other words absolute sovereignty is worth defending.

Such behavior out of a European nation would have the intellectual class in a state of near revolt, energize any latent socialist movement AND piss off everyone. I'll let you know right now it'll piss me off that much. I'd much rather trade with Portugal but I also won't allow naked land grabs in so far as I can help it.

I doubt such a revolt would do much in Portugal, most people would be happy given the governments stance on employment and welfare as well as hospitals and education and the Low Countries would be painted as the next big threat. Some bleeding hearts might care, but they would be sent over as relief teams and either work or disappear.

As for Mexico declaring war, well no offense but without allies I'd curb stomp you. NF 5 > NF 4, 1,080,000 regulars > 1,017,600 regulars (though not by much), I have the large air force and by rights should have a more advanced force due to research in a prolonged war. I may lose forces defending Guiana, however you would never do anything to my mainland and would take heavy losses to remove Guiana from my control especially as I have an extra 1.2 million in reserves over you. In short, attacking me would be a bad idea no matter how you feel about my actions.

I don't want this war to happen, either, but if you think to sink my ships after they go through Panama other nations might not look kindly on that so you're weighing the value of sovereignty versus the value of free trade. I'm not sure how it would go, but it could be interesting.

[Czechmate]

I quit the game. Too much bother trying to keep it realistic, when someone's just inventing copouts.

I was looking forward to sparring with you, too.

EDIT: And I had *just* committed to doing it this evening! I posted four or five hours ago!

[TimothyC]

By a Vote of Three to Zero the Mod staff is hereby imposting a minimum of a 2 day (real) pause on all in game action).

[Norade]

I can see Stas' point, I would hate fighting against an unknown and unknowable force as well; thus nations without an OOB should be considered to disorganized to attack by the games admin. In game they simply don't know where all their forces lie and thus can't attack.

Out of game if you're too lazy to do an OOB you don't deserve to participate fully. Implementing this rule will keep Stas playing and fix an issue with the rules.

[K. A. Pital]

I was looking forward to sparring with you, too.

Oh grand, Beowulf's apprentice looks to follow the way of his master. I'm sure you'd play in the same fashion. Thanks, but let me spare my time - all the more reason to quit.

[loomer]

I was actually looking forward to the inevitable clash with the USSR too, I have to say. So you're seriously committed to quitting?

[K. A. Pital]

So you're seriously committed to quitting?

What's the point in playing when Beowulf magicks out 20 000 man strong allied units from an ally with no OOB, reassigns them to Corps, moves them into any territory he likes, as his way of protecting his pet domain? *shrugs* Damn, Hearts of Iron is more realistic than this. So yes, I'm damn serious I'm not playing.

[RogueIce]

So you're seriously committed to quitting?

What's the point in playing when Beowulf magicks out 20 000 man strong allied units from an ally with no OOB, reassigns them to Corps, moves them into any territory he likes, as his way of protecting his pet domain? *shrugs* Damn, Hearts of Iron is more realistic than this. So yes, I'm damn serious I'm not playing.

It would be nice if you'd give us (the mods) a chance to try and sort this out before you up and left. That's part of what we're here for, after all: settling disputes between players.

[Norade]

Steve seems to have dropped the ball on this one after doing a generally good job so far. He should have seen a nation with no OOB attacking and asked for it to be posted before anything could happen, otherwise Stas was left with no reasonable way to defend or even write a decent post on the subject. My opinion is that any involvement in a war by a nation with no OOB should be retconned away.

[loomer]

Aren't we all required to have OrBats by now anyway? It's Q3, afterall, and that means for most of you you've had like, a full month to do it.

[Steve]

I know what China can field given I worked with Bluewolf to tell him his army strength as he has a, well, he's China and has the population to prove it. But I do admit failure in not making sure everyone else knew it.

But that's why the two day freeze has come up so everyone can get their OrBats posted. Otherwise the mods will make them for you and you will not like it.*

*If you have a good reason to be inactive the next two days, PM US.

[TimothyC]

Aren't we all required to have OrBats by now anyway? It's Q3, afterall, and that means for most of you you've had like, a full month to do it.

I work in retail and and getting ready to start back to school, and when I initially signed on, I was going to have until January to finish the OOB up.

Yes, If I don't get my act together Steve and Rogue will build my OOB for me, even the mods are not immune.

[Norade]

That doesn't solve the issue Stas had though, I think he got shafted with forces that he couldn't have known about, unclear maps drawn by his enemies and general fog of war bullshit that shouldn't apply to an STGOD.

[K. A. Pital]

There's no dispute, because I'm deathly tired of wasting my time. The mods can take over the Soviet Union.

I spent a full week doing my OOB, positioning my units, so on, and carefully looking at which forces are posted where, including all military forces of nations surrounding me.

When I have to play for essentially the equivalent of a nations' military headquarters, I at least have to have some information.

Beowulf routinely claimed that he has no cities in territory A or B unlike IRL, no railway links with Russia, Maginot line, etc. (in the 1920s, few nations actually constructed such fortifications; with the absence of World War I as it was, the impetus for that is hardly there) and all that passed well forth. Chinese units? Fine. How about position of railways? Cool, let's just remove railways from wherever I am advancing and instead put them in territories inaccessible! That's cool - the real-life Hailar railway to Manzhouli doesn't exist (despite the territory favoring it). How about attacking specifically back in time, so that Beowulf wouldn't have the time to raise reserves? Actually, that doesn't work - he still raised them, because... because that's how we play - but now I have to actually move my 30 divisions that I raised into position by railway, like a honest player - but Beowulf just has them, and that's all. Whoops. No attacks against undeployed forces allowed! Fine, dandy.

And look, 20 000 divisions of course, that's so cool, you can form a corps from 2 such divisions and it would be quite in strength; I can see Beowulf's logic. Despite China having no OOB and him saying "Well, Bluewolf has to sort out the costs he is incurring with the Mods" - really, he has to sort shit out while Beowulf uses up his 20 000 divisions as spare meat against the USSR, carrying the bulk of his attacks? Does Bluewolf even know about that?

No, sorry - that's enough for me.

[Czechmate]

Man, I just don't even know what to say.

I had actually developed some respect for Stas as a mind to play against - his painstaking effort to maintain realistic organization and deployment, aside from the tank fleets, was worthy of it. I'm not even offended by his pithy you're-beowulf-junior comment.

I'm disappointed I don't get to fight him at an equal level, where I'm not a gimped banana republic.

[Steve]

I was under the impression that the counterattack at Hailar came at about 13 days into the war, using what forces the Chinese and Manchurians were able to move up; they hit a weak spot with enough force to pinch off the salient into Hailar, and by the roll they got in chat the Soviets are able to hold long enough to get about half their forces out, leaving a 40,000 man pocket. Then you were preparing to use what fresh forces you'd been able to move up into the breach over the Argun, along with the unengaged forces to the west, to begin a diversion op and breakout of the pocket. And then somewhere around there this argument began about Chinese square divisions.

As far as I'm concerned the Soviets have burned through a decent portion of their pre-conflict stocks in the area while the Sino-Manchurian forces, with that cut-off attack, exhausted much of their area supplies and will need time to build up enough stores for further major operations (particularly with quite logical damage to nearby rails around Hailar from Soviet attack).

[K. A. Pital]

Beowulf re-assigned the main assault from the "weakest" spot (the 50 km or so "neck" to Hailar) towards the strongest spot - the breach of his pre-war border itself, which is permanently manned (and by manned, I mean re-occupation of Manchurian fortifications) by three divisions and has many divisions moving immediately next to it because reinforcements are constantly arriving.

I've positioned all the divisions now onto the map, thanks to Beowulf for taking care to draw them. You can look at it for yourself and get a clue as to how effective such an attack could realistically have been.

And it's at day M+10, not at day M+13 - three days are three divisions' worth of a difference.

I'm also wondering - his 4 Chinese divisions at the entire border from Manzhouli to the breach mean that he effectively replaced Manchurian divisions manning his defence lines with Chinese? Just like that?

And of course, Beowulf effectively shifted the Hailar railway hub south of Hailar (unlike it's IRL position)! Voila! No damage to the rails from Soviet assault! That's cool. Why the FUCK would I attack Hailar then? Bypassing the city makes more sense if the railway crossing is to the South below Haialr.

[Steve]

Huh? I thought the rail was in Hailar myself.

And given the need to use rails for supplies as well there can't be too many forces in the area.

Okay, seriously, had I known he was attacking that far north when I rolled I would've used a completely different set of criteria for success. I'm of mind now to order that the attack took place further south, at the more logical point of weakness between the border breach and Hailar proper.

[K. A. Pital]

Green rails. How convenient to have them below Hailar, all right! And of course there's a huge loop somewhere there below which then goes to lake Hulun and then up to Manzhouli! Voila! He solved the issue by not wasting the life of a single soldier, and me storming Hailar become complete tactical madness.

I mean, what's the point of storming it if the hub is below it? Bypassing the city and encircling the forces there by cutting off THAT HUB and THAT CROSSING makes far more sense.

And of course, him having double railways all along the border is just... awesome! I can't recall such cool railway lines in history. The border is over 1000 km long. That's 2000 km of track only for a defensive, purely military-use narrow-gauge railway! It should cost several billions - it's like, on the order of the length of the entire Far Eastern Railway.

I think his economy should be fucking punished for that. For that and the Maginot line.

If he took care to explain just how different from IRL the communications and city layout is, Hailar would not be stormed from the North, but instead encircled by a flanking attack to the South, aimed for the railway crossing which is now below the city to leave the city defenders without supplies.

But he didn't. Then he said I should storm Hailar with 200 000, when he has 180 000 there and another 220 000 right on my flank, and another 50 000 right to the East. Brilliant!

[Norseman]

There's been a *lot* of ass pulling in the Manchurian campaign, mainly in that the Chinese and Manchurian players seem to pull defensive measures from their ass whenever they need them. It's kind of disheartening.