SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[erik_t]

The assumption in this game is that if the technology is there, it can be used as it is. People already started using the AEW&C system on the B737 so what exactly is wrong? It's not like the Awacs aircraft are using anything revolutionary new.

Ehm, yeah, that's the thing. The AEW380, as described, is nothing like the Wedgetail 737. But that's a niggling side issue.

The point is, even with @ rocketry developments that explicitly did not take place in this universe, and therefore entail technology that is not there, the Ares 1 still couldn't be ready. Even if Shuttle had existed in this universe as in @ and whoever it was (Lonestar?) initiated that design process the moment he stepped out of his Q-daze. The technology hasn't progressed that fast, even with our advantages in the real world.

It's okay for people to not know these things; not everyone is Sea Skimmer or Shep or Phong. But that does mean that if you're unclear on a system or what sort of development cycle is reasonable, you should just freaking ask.

So let me get this straight, Shep pulls a submarine and claims it was in development way before the actual start game year and you come along and say that?

Permit-Class Special Submarine: Displaces 13,500 tons surfaced and 23,500 tons submerged, and is powered by two PWRs. Top speed is reportedly 24 knots submerged. She reportedly carries a significant guided land attack capability. First nuclear powered vessel in the Shepistani Navy.

Flasher-Class Special Submarines: Developed using experience gained in production of Permit Class. Displacement is 16,250 tons surfaced and 26,500 tons submerged.

Jack-Class Special Submarines: Considered the second generation of Shepistani SSNs. 26,500 tons surfaced, 36,700 tons submerged.

Gato-Class Special Submarine: Third Generation Shepistani SSN. 30,250 tons surfaced, 40,500 tons submerged.

Yeah, uh, it was in development for all that time. That's why he had four generations of submarines explicitly termed "special" (there's a friggin' clue for ya), the last two essentially the size of a FSMforsaken Typhoon. Did you pay attention, or did you just figure Shep got nerfed in this game so you could ignore him?

[Karmic Knight]

On a completely different note, is anyone selling T-72s at reasonable prices? or PzH 2000s?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Ehm, yeah, that's the thing. The AEW380, as described, is nothing like the Wedgetail 737. But that's a niggling side issue.

Quit saying this and that. So what about it is it not like the WedgeTail? The technology used in that aircraft began development in Real World since 2000. Without going through the extra bit of having to develop the radar for the Global Hawk, the radar would have entered service much earlier.

Yeah, uh, it was in development for all that time. That's why he had four generations of submarines explicitly termed "special" (there's a friggin' clue for ya), the last two essentially the size of a FSMforsaken Typhoon. Did you pay attention, or did you just figure Shep got nerfed in this game so you could ignore him?

Look idiot, if you bothered to read all the fucking comment threads, so yes I did fucking pay attention. So yes, if you are go trolling in this thread, at least fucking read all of them.

And No, the fucking submarine is much larger than the Typhoon, as per what Shep says, along with a whole host of new weapon systems that Shep didn't even need to start developing at the start of the game time.

[erik_t]

Ehm, yeah, that's the thing. The AEW380, as described, is nothing like the Wedgetail 737. But that's a niggling side issue.

Quit saying this and that. So what about it is it not like the WedgeTail? The technology used in that aircraft began development in Real World since 2000. Without going through the extra bit of having to develop the radar for the Global Hawk, the radar would have entered service much earlier.

Systems integration for the seatback entertainment system delayed delivery of the A380 by a full year, and yet you posit that a whole new AEW set can be working in three. I think this is unlikely, but again that's more of a side gripe.

The real absurdity is the space launch vehicle schedule, which is just out-and-out nonsense.

Yeah, uh, it was in development for all that time. That's why he had four generations of submarines explicitly termed "special" (there's a friggin' clue for ya), the last two essentially the size of a FSMforsaken Typhoon. Did you pay attention, or did you just figure Shep got nerfed in this game so you could ignore him?

Look idiot, if you bothered to read all the fucking comment threads, so yes I did fucking pay attention. So yes, if you are go trolling in this thread, at least fucking read all of them.

And No, the fucking submarine is much larger than the Typhoon, as per what Shep says, along with a whole host of new weapon systems that Shep didn't even need to start developing at the start of the game time.

Well, A, Typhoon is believed to displace as much as 48kton. So Shep's boats certainly are not bigger. B, what, the "Special Type 26" Torpedo Tubes" didn't raise your eyebrow at all? How about the image Shep posted 24 Oct. in the planning thread mk2? Did you notice that there are normal torpedo tubes and then HUGE FUCKOFF TORPEDO TUBES behind them? I know you were at least reading the posts, since you pissed and moaned about titanium hulls bla bla bla. Right afterward, you posted about it carrying "possibly missiles", indicating that you recognized that Shep wasn't showing everything. I know, because I read that post then, and I read it again just now. And I know that Shep had big torpedo tubes shown the whole time, because I helped him draw up the damned submarine.

I know you read Shep's posts. Did you actually think about them?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Systems integration for the seatback entertainment system delayed delivery of the A380 by a full year, and yet you posit that a whole new AEW set can be working in three. I think this is unlikely, but again that's more of a side gripe.

Much of the system integration issues I assumed were handled since the radar was based off the Russian Nebo SVU radar, along with the electronics involved in the plane. Shep himself employs similar radar in his own nation. If it is really that big an issue, then I will add an addendum that the plane will need a year of testing to debug all the issues before official commissioning. And I still am unsure about whether the radar is good enough to guide missiles to targets.

Well, A, Typhoon is believed to displace as much as 48kton. So Shep's boats certainly are not bigger. B, what, the "Special Type 26" Torpedo Tubes" didn't raise your eyebrow at all? How about the image Shep posted 24 Oct. in the planning thread mk2? Did you notice that there are normal torpedo tubes and then HUGE FUCKOFF TORPEDO TUBES behind them? I know you were at least reading the posts, since you pissed and moaned about titanium hulls bla bla bla. Right afterward, you posted about it carrying "possibly missiles", indicating that you recognized that Shep wasn't showing everything. I know, because I read that post then, and I read it again just now. And I know that Shep had big torpedo tubes shown the whole time, because I helped him draw up the damned submarine.

I know you read Shep's posts. Did you actually think about them?

What is there to think about? As you said, Shep didn't reveal much of them, and despite my prying I couldn't get everything. Even then he couldn't confirm it was made of titanium and went out to backtrack saying no. And yeah I knew they were big torp tubes, but I didn't know what they fired. So did you expect me to go psychic?

[phongn]

Much of the system integration issues I assumed were handled since the radar was based off the Russian Nebo SVU radar, along with the electronics involved in the plane. Shep himself employs similar radar in his own nation. If it is really that big an issue, then I will add an addendum that the plane will need a year of testing to debug all the issues before official commissioning. And I still am unsure about whether the radar is good enough to guide missiles to targets.

Putting it on an airplane is going to take time to solve. Then hooking everything up. Even something as simple (relatively speaking) as Project Wedgetail ran into systems integration hell, and your system looks to be much, much more complex. Actually letting it guide missiles is going to make your job even harder.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Much of the system integration issues I assumed were handled since the radar was based off the Russian Nebo SVU radar, along with the electronics involved in the plane. Shep himself employs similar radar in his own nation. If it is really that big an issue, then I will add an addendum that the plane will need a year of testing to debug all the issues before official commissioning. And I still am unsure about whether the radar is good enough to guide missiles to targets.

Putting it on an airplane is going to take time to solve. Then hooking everything up. Even something as simple (relatively speaking) as Project Wedgetail ran into systems integration hell, and your system looks to be much, much more complex. Actually letting it guide missiles is going to make your job even harder.

Then I will add a 2 year addendum. The plane won't enter active service till... 2013.

[erik_t]

No, but it doesn't take a psychic to figure that Shep is going to make something stupid-giant-overkill. And really, we tried to lead you along, man. I mean, the picture does have huge torpedo tubes (even though we could have hidden them along the bottom). It is explicitly an "experimental commerce attack" boat or something like that. It was called "special" at every opportunity. It did mount what Shep termed "Special 26" torpedo tubes", which is explicitly larger than a normal NATO torpedo anyway. The fun in a STGOD comes from the second and third levels of what does he know that I know that he knows?, and we really were trying to promote that. If we'd wanted to really fuck up the system, there are a number of ideas that we rejected as simply too unbalancing.

And again, I don't want to obfuscate my main gripe. AEW380 mostly sticks in my craw because it's just such a huge waste of a massive aircraft. Any thirty-year-old widebody (like Japan's 767 for instance) can be made to fly arbitrarily long, and a radar like that fits quite well, as you say, in a 737. Why waste hundreds of millions of dollars on a huge aircraft? Bragging rights? It'd be wicked awesome to have a KC-A380, say, but there's just no reason to stick a radar platform on such a huge aircraft as that. It just limits your hangar/maintenance/airfield options, really.

The rocketry is the thing that really drives me nuts. And my god, as a fellow who worked on Ares 1 (phong can vouch for this, I recognize that I have essentially zero posts), it drives me nuts.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

No, but it doesn't take a psychic to figure that Shep is going to make something stupid-giant-overkill. And really, we tried to lead you along, man. I mean, the picture does have huge torpedo tubes (even though we could have hidden them along the bottom). It is explicitly an "experimental commerce attack" boat or something like that. It was called "special" at every opportunity. It did mount what Shep termed "Special 26" torpedo tubes", which is explicitly larger than a normal NATO torpedo anyway. The fun in a STGOD comes from the second and third levels of what does he know that I know that he knows?, and we really were trying to promote that. If we'd wanted to really fuck up the system, there are a number of ideas that we rejected as simply too unbalancing.

Yes it occurred to most that it was a giant overkill. Its capabilities however, were a different issue.

And again, I don't want to obfuscate my main gripe. AEW380 mostly sticks in my craw because it's just such a huge waste of a massive aircraft. Any thirty-year-old widebody (like Japan's 767 for instance) can be made to fly arbitrarily long, and a radar like that fits quite well, as you say, in a 737. Why waste hundreds of millions of dollars on a huge aircraft? Bragging rights? It'd be wicked awesome to have a KC-A380, say, but there's just no reason to stick a radar platform on such a huge aircraft as that. It just limits your hangar/maintenance/airfield options, really.

I wasn't too sure of a few things.

1. I wanted a long endurance aircraft. I have long shorelines that needed patrolling.
2. I wanted an aircraft to do JSTARS while it was at it. I wasn't then sure whether an A340 or A330 was large enough to contain the electronics, although I seriously considered an A340.
3. I then took a leaf from the Air Force One aircraft and figured that I might need something of that size to do the job.
4. In the case of that VHF aircraft I started testing, there was the issue of whether an A340 could carry something the size of 2 Nebo SVU, or slightly larger. Neither was I sure the Nebo SVU was omnidirectional, so one of them was aimed squarely at the ground while the other aimed up. The radar in question is larger than most radars because of the function.

[K. A. Pital]

Why did someone just put a future spaceship into existence? We are lobbing R-7s with Mercury capsules into space and someone says he has the Ares? Um?

And this "25 ton rockets" in three years? Come on. You have rocket tech, it's perfected, sure, but what now? There's a gap between R-12, R-14 and R-36 for christ's sake, which basically are clones of the same design, and still it took years to make the R-36 engines.

Either we are launching R-7s, and heavy rockets do not come before some 5-6 pass along, or we're back to one-up 'fuck you with myh SUPAH ROCKET'.

What a bunch of kids. When Marina denied rocket development, I even scrapped launches of RORSATs with a very simple ICBM-derived booster. But it seems some people just can't be content with the fact they will have to wait a few years to have their "satellites". What the hell is it? Sad that your ALCMs are suddenly becoming imprecise without aerial recon? Well, should've made recon planes then! Sad that you don't have satellite TV? I thin kthe world can live for a few years without it.

What the..? Fuck the MESS and their ridiculous claims. And why the fuck Ares? Maybe the MESS should get the fuck down to Earth and work with, um, DELTA and ATLAS missiles, eh? No?

P.S. And if this shit with "I spamz future technology at will!" doesn't stop, I guess I'll have to quit the game. It's growing tiresome when you try to set up a realistic chain of development just to have "WE TRUMPZ YOU WITH NEWEST TOY!" approach.

P.P.S. And Shep's boats have more viability than future rocket. We live in a world where SRBMs are top notch rockets for us and no ICBMs were made. Space rocketly is in the R-7 stage. But simultaneously we live in a world where huge submarines are made routinely and future SSBNs and SSGNs are already stuffed into Navies.

[erik_t]

Shep, I'm sorry. I should have explicitly excluded you and phong (who clusters IRBMs) from my ranting. Your R-7 stuff is perfectly feasible and it makes me smile.

[K. A. Pital]

Here's a game. Instead of using future rocket designs at will, the CSR announces it has the 150-to-LEO "ENERGIA-VULKAN" semi-salvageable rocket, launches 10 RORSATs and INT-SATs into oribt with first launch, then launches 100 orbital warheads with second launch. Then launch another 100 orbital warheads. Nuclear payloads though... will take up to next year to produce, bleh.

Then I get the "Doctor Doom" speech. Orbital weapons flying overhead, with no minutes to warn, but mere seconds! Mwahahahah!

And game is over. I win. Is that scenario nice? I mean, we do build heavy rockets! Very fast! Uh-huh!

Oh, and GP-fucking-S again? Right? So your rockets lob tons into GEO just 3 years after we get a world without even a single ICBM-level rocket? Yah, I see, hard to live when most of your weapons are imprecise crap due to a lack of GPS. But guess what, I coped without it. And instead of handwaving a constellation of satellites heavier than anything ever lobbed into orbit, perhaps you should reconsider, Lonestar.

[Shroom Man 777]

You people suck. I hate everyone.

Except Norseman, Shady, and PeZook. And SiegeTank.

Can we have Mushroom Marines kill some San Doradoans without any consequences whatsoever now?

Ah, anyway, eheheh.... the FUN Forum Five will have interesting results.

[K. A. Pital]

To remind people what the CSR does when it's pissed off (and it's pissed, mightily so), here's a round of "Star Wars" dickery.

[erik_t]

Take off every ASAT!
You know what you doing.
Move ASAT!
For great justice.

You really ought to fire ASAT off of MiG-25 though, if you have any.

[phongn]

To remind people what the CSR does when it's pissed off (and it's pissed, mightily so), here's a round of "Star Wars" dickery.

I hardly post in the game anymore, but I had plans for my own space development, including "orbital rendezvous tests"

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Take off every ASAT!
You know what you doing.
Move ASAT!
For great justice.

You really ought to fire ASAT off of MiG-25 though, if you have any.

Won't... a MiG-31 do a similar job?

[K. A. Pital]

You really ought to fire ASAT off of MiG-25 though, if you have any.

MiG-31D is a dedicated ASAT platform it's good enough for the task. MiG-25 airframes are already retired, with serial MiG-31 frames going through upgrade to "M" standard and a new "T" titanium-composite airframe is the current generation.

I hardly post in the game anymore, but I had plans for my own space development, including "orbital rendezvous tests"

Actually I like my action. The MESS shouldn't wank their rockets too much.

[erik_t]

Take off every ASAT!
You know what you doing.
Move ASAT!
For great justice.

You really ought to fire ASAT off of MiG-25 though, if you have any.

Won't... a MiG-31 do a similar job?

As I recall, MiG-31 has higher bypass engines that are more efficient in cruise but don't quite supply the brute thrust at high Mach number that the MiG-25's do (albeit in a destructive way).

It was a little off-the-cuff though. Stas undoubtedly knows MiG variants better than I do.

[Siege]

Sooo... Just to be clear: All the bile on the past page-and-a-half, is it directed exclusively at Lonestar's Ares, or are my Titan II-ripoffs a no-go area as well?

[K. A. Pital]

Hardly. The Titan-II is pretty feasible, it's a 1962 design.

You see, problems arise when you just claim that you jumped this graph right to the Shuttle (which is nonexistent) and beyond to Ares. That's fucking impossible.

Even if you did small solid boosters, and small liquid boosters, you're still years away from such a design.

The Titan is a good design (though Delta or Atlas could be a better choice for the long term, since we know that it's modernization limit vs. lift capacity is higher than that of the Titan family).

For other info on where we are, look here. i thought we are somehwere in the year 1960, rocket design wise, and 6000 kgs to LEO remain a high bright star to orient to. Apparently some people thought otherwise.

[Shroom Man 777]

Siege, I'll pay you awesome moneys to launch my motherfucking ShroomStrats. It's not for science, so it's probably not FASTA priority. But it's for monies!

Since the CSR, PeZookia, and Byzantine are doing awesome in Jerusalem, Shroomania will invest some FASTA funds in developing the Camp Kittyhawk Rocket Fields for FASTA, for the sake of redundancy and (Randome) Altarnate Realties. Speaking of RAR, I wonder if ZOR would like to launch his stuff from Camp Kittyhawk. I mean, Jerusalem's a pretty busy place and launching puppies and kittens into space is more priority than goddamn pornosats.

And we need randome altarnates if, in case, some chimpanzee-carrying rocket explodes in Jerusalem.

If something explodes in Camp Kittyhawk, protesters can then go fuck over at the Shroomanian Embassy and Mushroom Marines can proceed to ruin their shit even further! It'll be a hobby!

[PeZook]

Jesus christ, did Stas just plonk OD satellites?

[Shroom Man 777]

Yep!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Jesus christ, did Stas just plonk OD satellites?

Yes.

And I'm going neutral.