SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VIII

[Ryan Thunder]

So, my SECRET SPY NETWORK told me that Steve's become the mod. Good on him, he's probably the most neutral guy available.

EDIT: Steve, if you're willing, I would be amenable to working on my OOB with you to address any...flaws that certain people may consider the end of the world.

Oh come on now, there's no need to be petulant. I added up your forces and you easily exceed the points limit for a duchy with your air force alone, in addition to wanting to start with a GDP that's a hundred billion dollars higher than it should be.

Is it such a problem for you to just follow the rules, like I had to? Are you scared that your military penis won't be big enough or something?

Also, if everything's a little calmer now, I'd like to get the map finished. And I would really appreciate it if everyone would leave the outbursts and grudges at the door so I -can- get the kinks ironed out to everyone's satisfaction.

Grudges? Seriously, man, I hope you aren't talking about me, because if you think expecting you to play by the same rules I had to is unreasonable or a sign that I hold some kind of grudge against you then you're, well... some special kind of retarded.

[Siege]

Gentlemen, please. No fighting in the war room...

[Czechmate]

*snip*

Shockingly, I didn't mean you. I've been talking to Steve on AIM for the last two hours about this stuff, actually. Working it out. You should perhaps curtail your outbursts in light of this.

[Czechmate]

Okay, so here's the deal Steve and I worked out on AIM. He asked me to list it here, and I'm sure that he'll verify it if you have any doubts.

Offered (by Steve, on your behalf): I keep the 550B GDP. This reflects that Emmeria is the larger part of what used to be a large, wealthy, first-world super-Principality-level trading state. It also reflects that they kept the lion's share of the trade deals after the split.

Given (by me): I've got to put more of my Air Force in reserve, ie in basic-maintenance storage facilities. This is because Polaria used to be the source of the metal for innumerable aircraft parts, from elevators to landing gear to fly-by-wire circuitry. My Navy already has a large part of its' vessels in mothballs, and this is for the same reason; they're all gas turbine-powered ships, save for a handful of nuclear cruisers and a pair of subs.

Regarding the Air Force, I have put into reserve the following.

-all of the active attack aircraft.
-all of the active bomber aircraft.
-the entirety of the full-size carrier air wing.
-a number of previously active transport aircraft.

I have eliminated entirely the Experimental Group (no more awesome flight tests ).

Regarding the Navy, I have put into reserve the following.

-the full-size carrier.
-three destroyers.
-three frigates.
-all non-nuclear submarines. (to counterbalance this I put the other SSN back into service - I think this is reasonable)
-all Konig Wilhelm-klasse nuclear cruisers.

Regarding the Army, no changes were deemed necessary.

---

For the intellectually challenged, 'reserve' in this case means 'mothballs' because there's no real way to build or afford the parts for them.

[K. A. Pital]

Put into reserve? Why not just retcon them as your propaganda? Maybe I wanted a 12 carrier superfleet, so what? We don't always get what we want. We can't always build what we want either.

[Czechmate]

Put into reserve? Why not just retcon them as your propaganda? Maybe I wanted a 12 carrier superfleet, so what? We don't always get what we want. We can't always build what we want either.

This post only goes to show you have no earthly clue what you're on about. You're just spouting knee-jerk griefer bullshit without bothering to establish an understanding of the situation or its' details.

[Steve]

Put into reserve? Why not just retcon them as your propaganda? Maybe I wanted a 12 carrier superfleet, so what? We don't always get what we want. We can't always build what we want either.

Given that the country he's made hasn't been in the game as long as other Duchies and had a chance to get new toys made or even grow in power (like the Vineyards creating a Commonwealth with its neighbors, or San Dorado forming the NFT), I don't see why it's too unreasonable to permit new players some extra room. In this case, to accommodate his plans for his history, having it where Emmeria once had a larger military but was forced to mothball much of it due to parts shortages after losing their northern territories and the factories and raw materials there is a reasonable route.

Note that when I say this, I am also willing to permit retroactive bonuses to other late joiners like Ryan/Miratia.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Put into reserve? Why not just retcon them as your propaganda? Maybe I wanted a 12 carrier superfleet, so what? We don't always get what we want. We can't always build what we want either.

This post only goes to show you have no earthly clue what you're on about. You're just spouting knee-jerk griefer bullshit without bothering to establish an understanding of the situation or its' details.

Then enlighten us why you want such a large reserve. Because you have yet to even indulge us on why, beyond the fucking fact that you want those bits of equipment regardless what we say.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Put into reserve? Why not just retcon them as your propaganda? Maybe I wanted a 12 carrier superfleet, so what? We don't always get what we want. We can't always build what we want either.

Given that the country he's made hasn't been in the game as long as other Duchies and had a chance to get new toys made or even grow in power (like the Vineyards creating a Commonwealth with its neighbors, or San Dorado forming the NFT), I don't see why it's too unreasonable to permit new players some extra room. In this case, to accommodate his plans for his history, having it where Emmeria once had a larger military but was forced to mothball much of it due to parts shortages after losing their northern territories and the factories and raw materials there is a reasonable route.

Doesn't change one tiny fact. I come from a nation that has similar economy size to a Duchy. I sure as hell am sure my country cannot afford nuclear cruisers and what not, without suffering severe manpower shortage etc.

[Ryan Thunder]

This post only goes to show you have no earthly clue what you're on about. You're just spouting knee-jerk griefer bullshit without bothering to establish an understanding of the situation or its' details.

No, Czech, the bullshit is yours. You want to start with 550B GDP? Fine, then I get to start with that too. If I'd got what you want to start with, my present GDP would be 650B. No, you're a duchy, which means you get the same limitations that everybody else does. Don't like that? Live with it, or don't play. That's the deal I got.

Put into reserve? Why not just retcon them as your propaganda? Maybe I wanted a 12 carrier superfleet, so what? We don't always get what we want. We can't always build what we want either.

Given that the country he's made hasn't been in the game as long as other Duchies and had a chance to get new toys made or even grow in power (like the Vineyards creating a Commonwealth with its neighbors, or San Dorado forming the NFT), I don't see why it's too unreasonable to permit new players some extra room.

Meh. All I got was a giant patch of land to work with. Nobody asked me if I wanted a higher GDP or a larger military. In fact, when I proposed that I should be a principality to control that territory I was basically told to fuck off. I'm cool with being a duchy now, but this business of putting him ahead of where I am now is bullshit.

[K. A. Pital]

This post only goes to show you have no earthly clue what you're on about.

Oh really, smartass? Here's the understanding of situation: you have the GDP somewhere between Poland, Norway and Taiwan, but you have a military quite overwhelmingly large compared to them. You have what, 2 CGNs under construction? May I ask what is their displacement? You have 5 nuclear cruisers and 9 destroyers, well over anything remotely sensible for a nation of your GDP and size. Even granting you First World conditions (in fact, why not just look at Taiwan, eh?). And you also have nuclear submarines? And 2 huge-ass LPDs? Really?

That's a huge heap of bullshit. With a South Korea-like military budget (~30 billion) you'd be able only to barely build enough conventional combatants for your Navy, and that would already mean around 20% of your GDP. Now, Emmeria has no Army, so perhaps you could even build the greater part of your Navy with the 30 billion budget that ROK disposes, but it's still immense. You're a militaristic nation spending a huge part of your GDP to create a Navy with amphibious assault ships (meaing you plan on possibly invading someone), but not having even an army that could support this assault.

Your OOB makes no sense; in fact it never made any sense whatsoever. Your obsolete hulks of carriers also make no sense - Makin Island would've been rot and scrap by the time you're speaking of, since it's a World War II design and the tech tree of SDNWorld corresponds time-wise to the real world tech tree.

Where did you get your nuclear powerplants from? How do you service them? Usually, nuclear vessels require several generations of navalized reactors to construct - did you have several generations of SSGNs and SSNs to try out your reactors? Or you just think a great power would've sold you a nuclear powerplant? How about just downscaling to this

[Beowulf]

Look up LHD-8 Makin Island. Commissioned 26 Jun 09. That is to say, all of 3 weeks ago IRL. It's likely he either bought the design off the MESS, or bought stolen plans from Tonkin. And then modified it further.

So, Emmeria came into existance in 2014ish. GDP of $400 billion. Growth rate of 8%/year (experienced in real life by some small economies, like Korea). Gives a GDP of about $506 billion or thereabouts. Assuming about 40% of the military budget is towards procurement, that's about 3% of the GDP toward procurement, or $16 billion. The full run of LPD-17s comes out to an average ship price of $1.25 billion. The Wasp class (of which the Makin Island is a member) cost about $800 million for the later ships. Thus, he could buy his full number of phibs using one year's procurement, and still have cash to spare. Consider the typical ship replacement cycle is about 30 years lifetime (at least for western ships)...

Also, South Korea is a really bad example military for this game. Emmeria is an island nation. That dictates a strong navy. Korea is a peninsular nation, with an actively hostile country to its north, dictating a strong army. Taking the RoK Navy would be absolutely retarded.

Also, read the current OOB, on the wiki, rather than the outdated one in the OOB thread (yeah, it's what all the cool kids are doing now) http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/Royal_Emmerian_Navy and http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/Emmeria He's got like 2 active cruisers and 6 destroyers, with the rest in mothballs for want of parts, serving as part hulks for the rest of the ships.

[Steve]

This post only goes to show you have no earthly clue what you're on about.

Oh really, smartass? Here's the understanding of situation: you have the GDP somewhere between Poland, Norway and Taiwan, but you have a military quite overwhelmingly large compared to them. You have what, 2 CGNs under construction? May I ask what is their displacement? You have 5 nuclear cruisers and 9 destroyers, well over anything remotely sensible for a nation of your GDP and size. Even granting you First World conditions (in fact, why not just look at Taiwan, eh?). And you also have nuclear submarines? And 2 huge-ass LPDs? Really?

That's a huge heap of bullshit. With a South Korea-like military budget (~30 billion) you'd be able only to barely build enough conventional combatants for your Navy, and that would already mean around 20% of your GDP.

The working number for our agreement is $500-550B for a GDP. Moreso, $30B would be 20% of $150B, less than half of the Duchy limit for a GDP.

Now, Emmeria has no Army, so perhaps you could even build the greater part of your Navy with the 30 billion budget that ROK disposes, but it's still immense. You're a militaristic nation spending a huge part of your GDP to create a Navy with amphibious assault ships (meaing you plan on possibly invading someone), but not having even an army that could support this assault.

Again, the figure of $30B is irrelevant and bad.

Where did you get your nuclear powerplants from? How do you service them? Usually, nuclear vessels require several generations of navalized reactors to construct - did you have several generations of SSGNs and SSNs to try out your reactors? Or you just think a great power would've sold you a nuclear powerplant? How about just downscaling to this

Okay, are you demanding that he show all generations of nuclear-powered ships? Because, frankly, that has never been a term for having SSNs or SSGNs or CVNs in an OrBat in this game, otherwise you might as well demand that I draw up a similar list as I have a fleet of 'em (with a new class coming into commission next in-game year and new nuclear-powered carriers) and have only specified my latest operating classes.


Listen, I know that some of you have expressed the idea of me becoming a mod and some haven't yet voiced that, but in the spirit of that support I've been talking with Czech to make his country acceptable to everyone. I know for a lot of you he has to regain trust because of how you view him (and, frankly, because a bunch of you likely figure that within a game week he's joining MESS through either the front or the back door and you'll just be handing MESS another strategic asset) and I've talked with him about that. If letting him have this much power as of now is unacceptable, an alternative has already been accepted that would make him weaker than he asked and give him the chance, in the future, to have as he asked in the first place, but I wanted to see if people would be willing to give him a new chance now without what is effectively a probationary period.

And a point I'd like to make. We've been playing this game for almost a year now, going on 11 months, progressing from 2008 to 2017 in the game. Nine years of economic growth, military expansion and alteration, and getting new military toys. It's not exactly fair to demand new players start at the limits when that makes them inferior to even other countries of their own weight class. (And in the case of Duchies, well, how many Duchies from the start are actually left? USSR became UCSR. San Dorado and Coilerburg merged. Vineyards gained the Commonwealth. Tian Jiao is absorbed by Tian Xia. That leaves what? Baerne?) I believe that we need to come up with a scale to permit new players to account for growth in their country since 2008.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shroom, if we're retconning the entire thing that includes my news post, otherwise your reaction makes no sense given the news post regards reported public policy by the Shroomanian government.

Aw, mang! Double retcons!

Well, TRIPLE RETCONS. Since I have retconned all the relevent GEOSTIGMA IS SRS BSNSS posts!

Mang.

[Ryan Thunder]

Look up LHD-8 Makin Island. Commissioned 26 Jun 09. That is to say, all of 3 weeks ago IRL. It's likely he either bought the design off the MESS, or bought stolen plans from Tonkin. And then modified it further.

So, Emmeria came into existance in 2014ish. GDP of $400 billion. Growth rate of 8%/year (experienced in real life by some small economies, like Korea).

Oh, fuck off. 2% per year is the standard, by your own assertion to me when I started. You don't get to make exceptions for your buddies.

It's not exactly fair to demand new players start at the limits when that makes them inferior to even other countries of their own weight class. (And in the case of Duchies, well, how many Duchies from the start are actually left? USSR became UCSR. San Dorado and Coilerburg merged. Vineyards gained the Commonwealth. Tian Jiao is absorbed by Tian Xia. That leaves what? Baerne?) I believe that we need to come up with a scale to permit new players to account for growth in their country since 2008.

Funny you should say that now and not when I joined in December. I've only been allowed 3 years, and I only complained when I started because I was a n00b and didn't get it. Czech doesn't have that excuse...

[Steve]

Shroom, if we're retconning the entire thing that includes my news post, otherwise your reaction makes no sense given the news post regards reported public policy by the Shroomanian government.

Aw, mang! Double retcons!

Well, TRIPLE RETCONS. Since I have retconned all the relevent GEOSTIGMA IS SRS BSNSS posts!

Mang.

Fear the power of the RETCON STAMP!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!


Well, okay, in that case it was used for a good cause.

[Master_Baerne]

In all honesty, it is a bit ridiculous for Czechmate to start with the original Duchy allotment, as every other country has had years and years to improve itself and Emmeria hasn't been sitting still for that time. However, to put him ahead of another player is frankly offensive - I could see equal to the weakest of us, or slightly below that, but certainly not above.

Look at it this way: Siege has three Duchies now, Miratia's benefited from CATO support, I myself have substantial territory in the Wilderness and those Costa regions that voted to join me, extensive economic agreements from CATO, etc. Emmeria doubtless improved a bit in the years since game start, but certainly not to that level.

Just my two ROBs worth.

[Steve]

In all honesty, it is a bit ridiculous for Czechmate to start with the original Duchy allotment, as every other country has had years and years to improve itself and Emmeria hasn't been sitting still for that time. However, to put him ahead of another player is frankly offensive - I could see equal to the weakest of us, or slightly below that, but certainly not above.

Look at it this way: Siege has three Duchies now, Miratia's benefited from CATO support, I myself have substantial territory in the Wilderness and those Costa regions that voted to join me, extensive economic agreements from CATO, etc. Emmeria doubtless improved a bit in the years since game start, but certainly not to that level.

Just my two ROBs worth.

That logic is eminently acceptable and I see no direct problem with it. I am working to get Czech to have a more acceptable military size, because I believe that's the gist of everyone's complaints, namely, "His military's too big!".

[Ryan Thunder]

In all honesty, it is a bit ridiculous for Czechmate to start with the original Duchy allotment, as every other country has had years and years to improve itself and Emmeria hasn't been sitting still for that time. However, to put him ahead of another player is frankly offensive - I could see equal to the weakest of us, or slightly below that, but certainly not above.

Look at it this way: Siege has three Duchies now, Miratia's benefited from CATO support, I myself have substantial territory in the Wilderness and those Costa regions that voted to join me, extensive economic agreements from CATO, etc. Emmeria doubtless improved a bit in the years since game start, but certainly not to that level.

Just my two ROBs worth.

That logic is eminently acceptable and I see no direct problem with it. I am working to get Czech to have a more acceptable military size, because I believe that's the gist of everyone's complaints, namely, "His military's too big!".

Yeah, that's most of it. It's not so much the size of it alone as the combination of size and quality. I have a small military because I paid a premium for high-quality troops and equipment. He can have a large military, but there will have to be tradeoffs.

[K. A. Pital]

Look up LHD-8 Makin Island. Commissioned 26 Jun 09. That is to say, all of 3 weeks ago IRL.

Then Czech shouldn't list that as a carrier. And once again, he's building damn huge surface combatants. ROKN pays a billion for each KDX destroyer, and the LPX they build is half a billion as well. That means even the very construction of Czech's Navy's largest combatants would cost around 10 billion alone. That is for conventional ships. With nuclear, the cost is rising even further, possibly 15-20 billion, and a whopping 30-20 billion on overall construction in the last decade or so. That's not to mention the fact that around 30-40% of a military budget is usually spent on aquisition, and 70-60% remains for maintenance, etc. So in general, he should have spent quite a lot on his Navy. And since his designs and ships are all brand sparkling new (2000+), that means he has only 17 years or so for the timeframe of their construction.

Also, South Korea is a really bad example military for this game. Emmeria is an island nation. That dictates a strong navy. Korea is a peninsular nation, with an actively hostile country to its north, dictating a strong army. Taking the RoK Navy would be absolutely retarded.

Taiwan? Indonesia? Um... Britain? Where are their hordes of nuclear cruisers? I took the best Navy that comes from a nation with an at least somewhat comparable GDP and a military budget quite likely larger than Czech's.

Growth rate of 8%/year (experienced in real life by some small economies, like Korea).

Except why would there be such immense growth in already industrialized economies? And how woudl they deal with the world trade collapse of the Biowar Year? That would take time to rectify. I levelled the UCSR GDP growth to basically zero, and that's for a nation that is FAR more self-sufficient than Emmeria. Small nations should've been damn fucked during the Biowar, and they were.

The full run of LPD-17s comes out to an average ship price of $1.25 billion. The Wasp class (of which the Makin Island is a member) cost about $800 million for the later ships.

Yup, for the USA which has a colossal shipbuilding industry and thus the necessary economies of scale. For him, it's + the costs of shipping materials and stuff that he can't make domestically; as well as preparing large docks.

Okay, are you demanding that he show all generations of nuclear-powered ships?

No, I'm not. I'm just saying that small nations (GDP-wise) usually lack the abilities to produce large nuclear powered combatants. Buying them from other nations is not easy because nuclear powered ships are a prime and dangerous weapon in the hands of it's user, and giving them to smaller nations neither fits the mood of the MESS nor the mood of CATO or prior to that, the SNC; and the Japanistanis are not likely to do it either. The UCSR (CSR) followed an established real-life tech tree. So did Tian Xia; Old Dominion, etc. most MESS nations; so did PeZookia and Byzantium. Czech just sprung up.

P.S. Also, introducing I.E.H. and it's chief Rudolph Sikorski! We'll have fun with some nation as an experimental polygon, in due time.

[Pollux]

P.S. Also, introducing I.E.H. and it's chief Rudolph Sikorski! We'll have fun with some nation as an experimental polygon, in due time.

Ah, shit.

[K. A. Pital]

Ah, shit.

It's a matter of free will of course, no one will be subdued the nation will not necessarily be Misteria, and the plan is still in the works. And the IEH also has... other plans as well More politics, less wars!

[PeZook]

I'd like to remind everyone we've agreed (before the conference imploded ) for some lead-in time before accepting new full-fledged CATO members.

Also: Is Rudolf a relative of my defence minister?

[K. A. Pital]

Also: Is Rudolf a relative of my defence minister?

Maybe, maybe

[Siege]

I know for a lot of you he has to regain trust because of how you view him (and, frankly, because a bunch of you likely figure that within a game week he's joining MESS through either the front or the back door and you'll just be handing MESS another strategic asset) and I've talked with him about that. If letting him have this much power as of now is unacceptable, an alternative has already been accepted that would make him weaker than he asked and give him the chance, in the future, to have as he asked in the first place, but I wanted to see if people would be willing to give him a new chance now without what is effectively a probationary period.

Let's hear that alternative. 'Cause to be brutally honest I don't trust Emmeria any farther than I can throw it, and whilst my opinion shouldn't be decisive in this matter I'm obviously not the only one who feels that way. A lot of us (CATO players, that is) suspect that if you hand Czechmate a giant mothballed fleet, then one week in the game he'll sign a deal with Tian Xia or whomever and have it out of mothballs in no time. And then we'll have a pseudo-MESS state with a giant fleet sitting off the continent.

Yeah, thanks but no thanks.

It was annoying enough to have such a tiny yet bizarrely overmilitarized nation in the game when it was still sitting in an out-of-the-way corner of the map, it's just plain grating to shove that same nation in the face of established players and force them deal with it, particularly considering the history of the player who controls it. Ultimately this boils down to trust, and whichever way you turn it or try and sugarcoat it, Czechmate just does not have that particular quality in abundance right now.

And in the case of Duchies, well, how many Duchies from the start are actually left?

Baerne, Cialan, Misteria, Miratia, Langley, Caleigh. Not including Emmeria itself that's six active player nations, three of which joined or rejoined fairly recently and were not given any benefits to show for it. Now I'm not opposed to retroactively granting those existing nations some sort of benefit for their trouble, or even to granting new players some kind of leg up so they can to catch up. I do however question the form that benefit is supposed to take in this particular case - i.e. a mothballed fleet - for the aforementioned reasons; I just don't believe that fleet will remain mothballed for any appreciable amount of time.