SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

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Post by K. A. Pital »

Fingolfin wrote:Stas, want to make a Fusion Reactor the first major project to be built in Commune-1?
Sure. After all, they will need tons of energy as a government-subsidized city they will have to house the most energy-intensive industrial machinery ;)
Steve wrote:I do ponder if people would be as willing to play Duchies and Principalities if they weren't allowed to field top-of-the-line stuff, though. They want toys too. At least in Frequesue a lot of their newer projects are from FTO nations combining resources.
We have nothing against Duchies banding together or making high-tech weapons/industry themselves. I have something against other nations simply giving away their end-tech products to smaller nations ;)
Last edited by K. A. Pital on 2008-09-30 04:23am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Siege »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:If they band together and produce the stuff together, I don't see why they can't have their own indigenous projects. Heck, I remember SiegeTank mentioning they were doing their own Brahmos missile some time back. Not that any of us object to them getting advanced weapons.
Yeah, we are. It'll take some more time before it'll go into production though. Anyway, most of our joint military projects aren't nearly as ambitious as what the Great Powers are unveiling. We're not building supercarriers, or 5th generation fighters, or multiple types of supersonic missile. Instead, we're building Burke-analogues, a missile sub that's distinctly modest by Great Power standards (and is also still excruciatingly expensive for us), and finally a heavy supersonic missile when everyone is apparently already producing supersonic missiles.

Even our most advanced weapons aren't that advanced. In a world where what's bleeding-edge tech in OTL rolls off the production line in steadily increasing numbers, I don't think we're doing anything truly unfeasible.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

SiegeTank wrote:Yeah, we are. It'll take some more time before it'll go into production though. Anyway, most of our joint military projects aren't nearly as ambitious as what the Great Powers are unveiling. We're not building supercarriers, or 5th generation fighters, or multiple types of supersonic missile. Instead, we're building Burke-analogues, a missile sub that's distinctly modest by Great Power standards (and is also still excruciatingly expensive for us), and finally a heavy supersonic missile when everyone is apparently already producing supersonic missiles.
I have suggested to Raj Alten before, for strategic weapons, you guys should band together and fund them under the FTO, to be controlled by the FTO. That way, the lot of you get some measure of firepower without breaking the bank. There is a reason why Byzantium was concerned by your ... uneven commitments. :wink:
Stas Bush wrote:Sure. After all, they will need tons of energy as a government-subsidized city they will have to house the most energy-intensive industrial machinery ;)
Great. But note that the first reactor will be mostly to characterise plasma. We will build another one later after we are done extensive studies on plasma and materials required for a full blown reactor.
We have nothing against Duchies banding together or making high-tech weapons/industry themselves. I have something against other nations simply giving away their end-tech products to smaller nations ;)
That's another point. In the real world, we have missile control treaties etc. that are followed to some point. Some of us haven't forgotten Coilerburg suddenly switching to the UAR last game and that was like a poison pill. We aren't going to give weapons to a nation that might pull a Coilerburg. Astaria is probably the no. 1 candidate for that sort of things.
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Post by Norseman »

GAH!

Steve, how about a chance to let me respond to your first post before posting the second one? For the record I have multiple A-50s patrolling that part of the sea, I have multiple AN-30s, and several ships. Once its clear that a ship is missing the A-50s, keeping an eye on things, could help call up each and every ship out there (and there wouldn't be that many) to help ID the missing ship. Once the missing ship is identified an Astarian naval vessel would be dispatched to intercept, and if need be board it.

I understand you want an Amistad like incident, there's just one little problem: You are trying to pull an Amistad in the 21st Century against a power that has 21st Century reconaissance gear, AND is by your own admission alerted to the fact that something is wrong.

I would therefore appreciate it if you deleted your second post.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Let's begin the diplomatic brouhahah with the FTO now.

I think my proposal is reasonable.

Ah, and... the CSR considers bombers with payload over 10,000 kgs to be strategic. Bombers with payload below that are not strategic and thus may not be banned from the A.F.S.R.

That includes the A.F.S.R. Tu-95s which are converted into Tu-142M3 (payload ~8000 kg) maritime patrol versions by the CSR specialists.

Thus all Tu-95MS (16) are banned from ever arriving in the AFSR, Tu-160 and Tu-22M3/5 either.

However, Tu-142, and the Sukhoi T-4 are allowed, Su-34 and Su-39 tactical fighter-bombers are allowed.

Chemical and biological weapons are banned from AFSR. However, the proposal details nuclear weapons not, as they do not exist yet.

P.S. Hey, I have an idea... ;) if the FTO suggests, I could share with you 1) the intelligence data on Westchester 2) all acoustic and reconaissance data gathered by C.S.R. patrols in and over AFSR and coastal zones.

I'll share that freely as part of the mutual cooperation effort! :)
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:Thus all Tu-95MS (16) are banned from ever arriving in the AFSR, Tu-160 and Tu-22M3/5 either.
Stas, there isn't really a difference between a Tu-95MS(16) or a Tu-142M3, right? I originally opted to buy the latter under the impression that they can be both loaded up in the same way.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Stas, there isn't really a difference between a Tu-95MS(16) or a Tu-142M3, right?
False, look here:
Bomber loadouts

The Tu-142M3 is a heavy maritime patrol craft - dedicated to anti-ship and anti-submarine operations more than towards conventional bombing. It has a reduced load but better radars and lots of sonobuoys to gather sonar data from.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Stas, there isn't really a difference between a Tu-95MS(16) or a Tu-142M3, right?
False, look here:
Bomber loadouts

The Tu-142M3 is a heavy maritime patrol craft - dedicated to anti-ship and anti-submarine operations more than towards conventional bombing. It has a reduced load but better radars and lots of sonobuoys to gather sonar data from.
Hmm... I guess for next year, I'll switch over to Tu-95MS(16) production instead then. This year's Tu-142s will go to the Navy for patrol (and for sinking enemy ships)
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Final SSGN loadout
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I reasoned that it would be travelling with USGT torpedoes in tubes, with the Squall-2 and Type 53-65M in stock.

Reasoning is simple, if we are running silent, but need a silent, deadly and universal weapon, we use the USGT - it's well-suited against surface ships, has good speed, and dual homing (wake + possible a/p acoustic), and can be operated from the very deepest points.

If we are launching "Meteorits" at 40 m deep, and suddenly get a homing on the enemy, we can't wait for the USGT to reach the targets, the situation is dire enough and for that reason we have the "Squall" which we fire at the target. In 1998, it aquired terminal acoustic homing.

In case we know there's a large group of surface ships close and we are relatively close to the surface - or we are out of "Squalls" after an initial attack, everything can happen ;) - we can fire Type 53-65M at them. When used on a range of 11 km, it can travel at a speed of 68,5 knots and it uses decoy-proof wake homing as well.

The boat is going to be pretty deadly.

P.S. The pressure hulls and the light steel hull are all covered with anti-resonance, anti-locator and sound dampfening semi-resin coating (total weight of coating exceeds 800 tons!). The fenestrons cover 7-fin low-rate blades and the pump-jet facilities behind them.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:Final SSGN loadout
I reasoned that it would be travelling with USGT torpedoes in tubes, with the Squall-2 and Type 53-65M in stock.

Reasoning is simple, if we are running silent, but need a silent, deadly and universal weapon, we use the USGT - it's well-suited against surface ships, has good speed, and dual homing (wake + possible a/p acoustic), and can be operated from the very deepest points.

If we are launching "Meteorits" at 40 m deep, and suddenly get a homing on the enemy, we can't wait for the USGT to reach the targets, the situation is dire enough and for that reason we have the "Squall" which we fire at the target. In 1998, it aquired terminal acoustic homing.

In case we know there's a large group of surface ships close and we are relatively close to the surface - or we are out of "Squalls" after an initial attack, everything can happen ;) - we can fire Type 53-65M at them. When used on a range of 11 km, it can travel at a speed of 68,5 knots and it uses decoy-proof wake homing as well.

The boat is going to be pretty deadly.
The boat ought to give any submarine, even a Seawolf a run for the money, especially when it comes with towed sonar, sonar arrays and other electronics, incidentally not too different from the systems on a Seawolf or a Virginia class. :D

And all the rafting, and silent reactor cooling and all the acoustic stealth techniques that are possible, we threw into the boat.

In short, a bloody modernised Typhoon, with all the bells and whistles we could think of.

By the way, Stas, do the torpedoes have a stealth mode where they move slowly at the start, before ramping their engines to the max at a certain range?
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I'm sure the Yer Mom would be a close competitor to that boat.

Whatever details we're giving the Yer Mom, that is. PeZook? :?
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:By the way, Stas, do the torpedoes have a stealth mode where they move slowly at the start, before ramping their engines to the max at a certain range?
The USGT and Type 53-65 accelerate slowly and conduct steep turn maneuvers to leave the launching vessel and only then go full-speed.

The USGT is particulary stealthy, since one can quietly launch it from maximum Typhoon operating depth (400 m) and it can hit targets as low as 500 m, or as high as the surface.

The Type 53-65M if used on shorter distances against surface ships will reach the target in 285 seconds. This is important, since wake homing lockon by USGT or Type 53-65M is possible for 315 seconds after the ship leaves designated point. And wake homing is pretty brutal - no decoys have been created against it presently, none at all - so unless you have ATORP systems, you are dead with a 0,9 certainity - unless the torpedo fails on it's own or takes the wrong direction on the wake... ;)

The "Shkval-2" is a last-ditch weapon, a sort of golden bullet which blows your cover - but one the enemy certainly can't reliably dodge. I mean, it covers it's maximum 15 km range in 100 seconds. Think about that. ;)

With pumpjets and newer dampfer coating for reactor, as well as dampfers between hulls, the boat's silency would reach a rate that detection range in open ocean with most favourable weather conditions (MFWC) would be between 2-20 km, and detection in shallow water would be below 3-5 km.

This means the boat can turn around and play hunter on any hunters roaming around, since detection range is far less than the boat's own weapons.

P.S. The USGT in active+wake configuration can be used to shoot at targets from 40-50 km - good range, deep launch. It would take half an hour to reach the target, but the plus of such approach is that if you are certain the target doesn't have decoys, you can avoid dangerous encounters by sinking ships from 50 km away.
Last edited by K. A. Pital on 2008-09-30 07:40am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Setzer »

Anyone who's attending the FUN conference in Sirnoth, please PM me with anything you'd like to discuss.
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Post by Siege »

I was thinking of the following specs for a medium FTO supersonic missile:

Slamdunk
L 6.3 m
D 0.6 m
Speed: Mach 3.5 - 3.8
Two-stage integrated rocket/ramjet engine
450kg warhead
600km range
VLS Mk 41 compatible

Do these states make sense for what is intended primarily as an anti-ship missile, with some ground-attack capability?
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Post by RogueIce »

Stas Bush wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:By that claim; shouldn't you be gravely concerned about the MESS modernizing it's military
I am. I am making a re-hash of my missile stocks to make my fighters still able to engage the MESS F-22 and I'm also creating new submarines to wipe their airfields clean in case of war. I don't like high-end technology proliferating from Japanistan elsewhere however. Note that I'm not spamming 5gen fighters either, I have but a handful.

To be fair, I think that this technology spam leads to lowly nations receiving equipment which waay beyond their level, which is unrealistic.

I mean, everyone should be selling their old stocks to such nations, not their mainstay or even future systems.

Hell, I even stopped short of selling supersonic and hypersonic missiles and technologies in Shroomania - and Shroomania is far friendlier and rather harmless, well, at least more harmless than you are, Shep. ;)
Besides, we're not the ones brazenly assassinating foreign officials at diplomatic conferences and smugly saying "no extradition!" and then later feeding defector's families into woodshredders. You may not have written that post yourself but you rather gleefully accepted it.

The fact Japanistan wants to not only rearm you but give you their top of the line equipment in the process after stuff you've done is no doubt more alarming than anything the MESS had done.

And what exactly are you paying them with, or are you formal allies now and Japanistani neutrality is just a bad joke?
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Slamdunk
L 6.3 m
D 0.6 m
Speed: Mach 3.5 - 3.8
Two-stage integrated rocket/ramjet engine
450kg warhead
600km range
VLS Mk 41 compatible
Hmm. What is the altitude of flight? If it's high (20 km something), Mach 3,5-3,8 and a range of 600 km makes sense. If that's a VLS Mk.41 compatible lightweight missile mod to give Burkes and Ticos some anti-ship capability, it's pretty workable.

In short, does it have a low-alitude flight profile? Because that would be rather different. It would probably be more like Mach 2,5-3 at low altitudes (5-20 meters).

All in all, if it flies at very high altitudes, that is possible.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I wonder what new system I can arm my Ticos and BUrkes with? Would Buzzkills (BrahMos) be good?
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Your VLS cells are useless for that weapon - as I gather, they are limited at 0,6m something in diameter... bad.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Goddamn it! Upgrades are in order!
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Just use a newer VLS system, eh? ;) There's little prohibiting you from making one instead of the Mk.41, after all Shroomania isn't the USA as I noted earlier.

Also, remember that speed is not everything. Using something as cunning as the Klub might pay off (the Klub is a small missile, with low-speed at cruise, not to tick off radars, then it's last stage accelerates to Mach 3 on it's terminal flight sector).
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Yeah, whose to say I can't have Ticons with DIFFERENT missiles that can already fit those Russkie stuffs?

I mean, if we have Shep's archaic anachronistic fighters and F-15 ACTIVEs and all that being standard kit, then why on (New) Earth not?

If we have to start from scratch in regards to satellites and stuff, we have to get compensation. ;) :D
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Post by Siege »

Stas Bush wrote:Hmm. What is the altitude of flight? If it's high (20 km something), Mach 3,5-3,8 and a range of 600 km makes sense. If that's a VLS Mk.41 compatible lightweight missile mod to give Burkes and Ticos some anti-ship capability, it's pretty workable.

In short, does it have a low-alitude flight profile? Because that would be rather different. It would probably be more like Mach 2,5-3 at low altitudes (5-20 meters).

All in all, if it flies at very high altitudes, that is possible.
I was going off the idea that its altitude is optional - it could either go high and fast, which would allow the missile to reach its top speed (as it is designed to do) or it can be used as a wave-skimming missile (which will limit the top speed, as you say). Obviously I haven't a clue whether it's actually possible for a missile to be capable of both (it would still be optimized for the high/fast trajectory), but it doesn't sound very far-fetched to my layman's mind.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Heh, of course it's not far fetched - most supersonic missiles work that way.

Going low however would limit speed down to ~Mach 3-3,2 at the very, very best I guess, and range will probably be around 300-400 km - I'm being rather generous here. Best supersonic missiles have achieved a speed of 850-900 m/s (Mach 2,5) on a low trajectory (reality) and those are far larger missiles. Aside from the tricky "Klub" device with a 1000 m/s terminal speed (~Mach 3) for a third stage that is fired off from the missile... I don't know what could really do it.

Also a penalty on range would appear if the missile would be going low. It would be around 400 km (give or take, if it follows the whole path on a low trajectory, the range would be even lower)...
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Beowulf
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Post by Beowulf »

Stas Bush wrote:Your VLS cells are useless for that weapon - as I gather, they are limited at 0,6m something in diameter... bad.
21 in diameter, minus a bit for clearance. Tomahawk is 20.9 inch in diameter or 53 cm.

The next MESS VLS system will utilize larger cells (28" x 283").
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Fingolfin_Noldor
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

RogueIce wrote:Besides, we're not the ones brazenly assassinating foreign officials at diplomatic conferences and smugly saying "no extradition!" and then later feeding defector's families into woodshredders. You may not have written that post yourself but you rather gleefully accepted it.

The fact Japanistan wants to not only rearm you but give you their top of the line equipment in the process after stuff you've done is no doubt more alarming than anything the MESS had done.

And what exactly are you paying them with, or are you formal allies now and Japanistani neutrality is just a bad joke?
It's a bloody proxy war, if you ask me.
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Yeah, whose to say I can't have Ticons with DIFFERENT missiles that can already fit those Russkie stuffs?

I mean, if we have Shep's archaic anachronistic fighters and F-15 ACTIVEs and all that being standard kit, then why on (New) Earth not?

If we have to start from scratch in regards to satellites and stuff, we have to get compensation. ;) :D
Erm, Shroom, if you want to fit missiles larger than what your VLS can fit, by all means. Just make sure you design a newer VLS system, and tear off some of the anti-aircraft missiles. I already told you that I made new destroyers to house the new missiles. But Stas isn't too keen to share missile tech so...
Last edited by Fingolfin_Noldor on 2008-09-30 09:55am, edited 1 time in total.
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