SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread IX

[RogueIce]

Polaria uses French equipment because I thought nobody was using French equipment and wanted them to be different without using Eastern (UCSR) equipment. Maybe it's just a coincidence, or maybe it's the result of espionage? Whatever floats your boat, but keep in mind that they're autarkist and as Beo said natively manufacture their equipment.

I think it's just as well ignored anyway. Zoria has (or had) F-22s and I'm pretty sure nobody in the MESS sold those to him. There's just a lot of equipment cloning out there. Damn intellectual thievery...

[Crossroads Inc.]

Quick question... How do I find 5% of 2.5 trillion?

[Czechmate]

2,500,000,000,000 x .05 on your computer's calculator.

EDIT: don't miss any zeroes. sometimes I miss a zero and everything gets bollocks'd.

[Bluewolf]

Or google 2.5% of 2.5 trillion.

[Beowulf]

Quick question... How do I find 5% of 2.5 trillion?

.05 * 2,500,000,000,000?

[Siege]

I think it's just as well ignored anyway.

Yeah, I was just curious. In the end it doesn't matter where they got the gear from.

On the subject of magicked-or-not OOBs, I'd like to have it noted for the record that as it stands I think players who joined up halfway through are getting a rum deal. Whilst there seems to be a consensus that adhering to the points system now isn't actually a requirement anymore I think we all know that's not how it was put at the start of the game. Just because Shep and Skimmer got away with ignoring the system doesn't mean that it wasn't heavily implied that it was what you were supposed to use.

Now, I'm not at all opposed to allowing new players some leeway in their initial setup to compensate for the head start us old-timers have managed to build up over the past months. In fact it seems only fair. However those of us who joined in February or whenever most certainly did not get such a deal, so basically they're getting shafted, and frankly that strikes me as unfair. Magically expanding OOBs might not be the way to resolve this situation, but just telling folks to live with it in my opinion is not the solution we ought to be looking for either.

[Steve]

I think in the case of Ryan we should let him expand his army. All that territory to defend....


Nothing's a perfect solution, unfortunately. The points system is... really, really broken IMHO.

I think Arik's is the best to start with as a basis, but we should also alter how you procure things and even the point limits. Namely, the point limit isn't restricted by your power ranking but by your GDP and how much is devoted to defense spending.

But this game is already going and its too late to overhaul everything, so we have to make the best of what we've got and be as fair to everyone as possible.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Quick question... How do I find 5% of 2.5 trillion?

.05 * 2,500,000,000,000?

AH well, im in idiot then, in anykase I got 125,000,000,000$ to spend on me military and buy some ships

[Bluewolf]

Personally if I was allowed to redo and expand my entire army, then Ryan has every right to do the same. I doubt he will abuse it and its not gonig to cause any harm either way.

[Ryan Thunder]

Quick question... How do I find 5% of 2.5 trillion?

Divide it by 20, or just take 5% of 2.5 and then multiply it by 1012.

Heh. Very well. I'm editing things appropriately given that I both have more people and a larger economy than Israel. And my armed forces still aren't anywhere near as big as theirs, according to Czech, either, so anybody who wants to bitch about whether I "built it like the rest of you" or not can kindly fuck off, and that'll be the end of it.

No, Ryan. Look, I'm sorry you feel wronged by all this, but it's way too late to just magic in a bigger OOB for you. You are in no worse a position than the rest of us were at the start of the game when we used the points system while Shep and Skimmer did not. And we didn't magic in new units; we simply lived with it and started an in game expansion. So if you feel your military is too small, it's on you to do something about in game. Not via magic.

1. You (collectively) foisted the points system on me.
1a. Because of this, I assumed that this was roughly the size that my armed forces should be at this stage of the game, and ramped them up at about the same speed that my economy and population were growing (which was slow, because Beowulf led me to believe that my GDP had to grow by 2% annually on average.) A bit faster, since I was paranoid of Tian Xia. Not attempting to build up my forces more quickly would require my entire country to act like a pack of idiots for three consecutive years. Furthermore,
2. You (collectively) allowed Czech to do whatever the hell he felt like, and then allowed Bluewolf to rewrite his entire OOB in response to Czech's ORBAT without giving it a second thought, after I'd asked to be given the opportunity to do the same for similar reasons.
3. You (collectively) threw a fit over me having a force half this size before we'd even decided I'd be land-locked.
4. My military hasn't even done anything that the changes I've made would affect at this point. I still build new planes at the same rate as before, so I don't have any more Falcons than I would've otherwise. Ever. Which means that I still only deployed a single squadron plus an escort to the Costas to interrupt Beo's bullshit. I've been involved in a skirmish. I still have around a thousand paratroopers to toss around, which means that the deployments in the CFR aren't affected either.

It's your (collective) fault that my military is weak enough to drown in a bathtub, and yes, that does piss me off. There was no opportunity to do anything else, because I trusted everyone else to be reasonable. Recent developments would seem to indicate that this trust was misplaced.

[Bluewolf]

Though I have noted you on this Ryan, I do feel as if you could propably repell any attack from anything lower than superpowers. I mean if you took my, Langly's or Pollux's OOB for instance. I think you would probably come out clear on top.

I am not trying to detract from your points but I do feel as if your defenceless when your not that bad, defence wise.

[Ryan Thunder]

Though I have noted you on this Ryan, I do feel as if you could propably repell any attack from anything lower than superpowers. I mean if you took my, Langly's or Pollux's OOB for instance. I think you would probably come out clear on top.

I am not trying to detract from your points but I do feel as if your defenceless when your not that bad, defence wise.

Yes, that's because I modified it to par with Emmeria's already.

[Steve]

Ryan, I apologize for everything that's happened. Unfortunately this game's not been run very consistently and rather lazily, mostly just going in the direction of what a relative handful of players push it upon with everyone else simply accepting that with little or no argument. I hope to end this.

[RogueIce]

As far as Bluewolf's OrBat is concerned, I was under the impression that the only reason he got to expand was due to him not being around for most of the game. And so he'd only "expand" to what would be a reasonable extent as where he'd be if he were around the whole time. If that's not the case, well, I misplaced my trust too. So you're not alone there.

At any rate, I object mostly on principle, because just letting everyone who's been playing to get to magic up their OOBs to "what's reasonable" (as opposed to a semi-plausible in game building process) would just result in a clusterfuck. Now, I actually don't know if everybody else has held to that; I assume it's the case, though.

Just because you're not super optimal to what you think you should be even though you've been active in the game shouldn't be a reason to just up your OOB. There are things I've fucked up due to OOC reasons that, realisticly, should not have happened. But I'm stuck with it. Looking around at other OOBs, mine is smaller than it probably should/could be. Shall I just retcon in an extra 300 F-22s?

Ryan, I apologize for everything that's happened. Unfortunately this game's not been run very consistently and rather lazily, mostly just going in the direction of what a relative handful of players push it upon with everyone else simply accepting that with little or no argument. I hope to end this.

Alas, this is the case. Most of us at the start went with points (and even there, at least where the Army was concerned, there were two systems in place) but Shep and Skim went with GDPs and such. And they got to do it while the rest of us were stuck. You came in and got argued down (I don't really remember that) and you were where you were. Now we have Czech and his OOB, which for the record since I haven't seen anyone objecting to Steve being mod, I say we let him decide; Czech will let Steve know when his OOB is finished and then Steve can rule if it's ok or needs changes.

But retconning for every mistake/foul up/injustice/whatever is just gonna make things worse, IMO. If we ever decide to do a SDN World III hopefully we can fix those things. But this game is what it is, and retconning history, OOBs, etc. willy nilly will just create more problems than it solves, IMO.

[Bluewolf]

As far as Bluewolf's OrBat is concerned, I was under the impression that the only reason he got to expand was due to him not being around for most of the game. And so he'd only "expand" to what would be a reasonable extent as where he'd be if he were around the whole time. If that's not the case, well, I misplaced my trust too. So you're not alone there

You have to remember I made a massive arms deal that upped how big my military was in the end and you also have to remember that I expanded to what was realistic to my countries growth etc. Given from what I started with this would make it look like I have just done a massive jump when really its a mixture of those two things. I have already linked to my military and if you want to check over it then here:

http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/Cialan_Military

This includes both my ordering recently and my OOB beforehand. Feel free to look over it. I am not hiding anything it at all. If you, Steve etc want to look over it, then thats fine.

[Ryan Thunder]

But retconning for every mistake/foul up/injustice/whatever is just gonna make things worse, IMO. If we ever decide to do a SDN World III hopefully we can fix those things. But this game is what it is, and retconning history, OOBs, etc. willy nilly will just create more problems than it solves, IMO.

This isn't "retconning history, OOBs, etc. willy nilly." This is the difference between being able to tell Beowulf to go fuck himself (because I know he doesn't have the resources in Tian Jiao to destroy me without resorting to nukes,) and cowering in my goddamned urbanates whenever someone so much as looks at me funny because my army is smaller than a fucking division and spread out over an area the size of Mongolia, and I know this is insufficient to present it as anything more than a speed bump.

[PeZook]

Speed bump? What?

You had six hundred modern main battle tanks as per 2012. You army's ratio of MLRS launchers to MBTs was almost 1:2, which is an incredible amount of firepower. Beowulf would have to build up for months in Tian Jiao to roll over you, and he'd have to commit significant forces to do that (to fit the definition of "rolling over you", it seems he'd have to commit pretty much...everything)

In addition to that, you said it yourself several times you paid a premium to have top-of-the-line equipment in all categories, and you developed 100% of your equipment domestically, which incurs additional costs every single time you want to field something. Now, after your edit, your tank force suddendly bloated to 1400 MBTs, which is about equal to what Tian Xia fields in total

Seriously, just do a level-headed comparison of forces here. Tian Xia has a GDP that's 14 times bigger, and benefits from joint MESS weapon development programs: of course they're a juggernaut compared to a Principality, but your constant whining about how tiny and ineffective your army is...is just whining. A country fielding 600 modern MBTs (that's two heavy armored divisions, dude!) is simply not going to be a pushover, especially with your rugged terrain lacking roads and railways with which an attacking enemy could esily supply his heavy forces.

Frankly, if one takes a good, hard look at Emmeria, they don't have much bigger forces than Miratia did in 2012. Half an active armored division and 2,5 mech infantry divisions is quite a bit, yes, but we've already established they are very, very militarized. Sure, they have large reserves, but they're not readily available.

[Pollux]

Quick question: has the AK-103 been invented yet?

The Misterian small arms industry is going to be unveiling some new products soon...

[Beowulf]

It's currently about 1700 tanks in the TXA. This doesn't include the Marine Corps. Most of them are still outdated, relatively, because despite the yammering, the TXA has gotten the short end of the stick in modernization. The big toys they got were the revamping of the helicopter fleet to use RAH-66s for both attack and reconnaissance, new rifles, and slowly updating the tanks. This includes after I absorbed the TJA, and all their personnel and equipment. This rapid militarization in your part should by all rights make me paranoid that you're going to do something remarkably stupid.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Quick question: has the AK-103 been invented yet?

The Misterian small arms industry is going to be unveiling some new products soon...

The AK-103 was most likely developed by the UCSR long ago. You could try going for the AEK-971 family, though.

[Ryan Thunder]

Well then I must have a really wonky force organization, because my divisions are actually smaller than yours. XD

You really only have 1700 tanks? Total?

Give me a minute to re-jig this here...

[Crossroads Inc.]

ANyone want to help me lay out my forces? All I know is I want a whole bunch of cruisers an such since im an Island nations, not sure how many land forces i'll need. I just know how much money i have to spend.

[Steve]

As an island nation you'll want a Navy, but the key is what kind of Navy? Power Projection? Or one that's geared toward protecting your territorial waters and, perhaps, augmenting your IADS?

And an Air Force is vitally important just as it is with a land nation.

[Crossroads Inc.]

As an island nation you'll want a Navy, but the key is what kind of Navy? Power Projection? Or one that's geared toward protecting your territorial waters and, perhaps, augmenting your IADS?

And an Air Force is vitally important just as it is with a land nation.

A mix of Power Projection and protection. I am thinking of lots and lots of small light Destroyers with extended range and fuel, mixed in with very heavy missile cruisers. And yes, Air will be highly important, but im not sure how many Aircraft carriers I can get with 125,000,000,000, of course that is Per Year, so I guess I can start building up forces over time.. There are LOTS of ships and planes in the OOB's but none ohave prices.

[Steve]

As an island nation you'll want a Navy, but the key is what kind of Navy? Power Projection? Or one that's geared toward protecting your territorial waters and, perhaps, augmenting your IADS?

And an Air Force is vitally important just as it is with a land nation.

A mix of Power Projection and protection. I am thinking of lots and lots of small light Destroyers with extended range and fuel, mixed in with very heavy missile cruisers. And yes, Air will be highly important, but im not sure how many Aircraft carriers I can get with 125,000,000,000, of course that is Per Year, so I guess I can start building up forces over time.. There are LOTS of ships and planes in the OOB's but none ohave prices.

Most people did things like points.

Your budget every year will realistically be divided at certain proportions between maintenance and procurement costs. Remember that a lot of assets could be years, even decades old.

Your post count makes you a Tsardom, so you could afford, even at peacetime level spending, a fairly capable force.

However, with your power projection, how long-range do you want it? Longer ranges and such may encourage more nuclear-propulsion designs as well as a greater need for support vessels capable of UNREP. If it's a case of projecting power into the Caribbean, the Crater Archipelago, and the Old Continent, then you can go with a shorter-legged force.

It's kinda like the old design differences in terms of habitability between British and German ships. The Germans didn't consider themselves needing to send ships far, so they could skimp on things like the habitability of their ships, support storage space, etc., for other things, while the British had a need for worldwide cruises.