SDN World 3 Commentary Thread III

[Lascaris]

Alright, the cat is out of the bag regarding the reasons for the refit. The turrets are being replaced with newer models to accommodate the SH shells. Lascaris earlier asked about the cost of refits, here is what it cost me to switch the turrets to make them capable of superheavy shell firing:

Österreich class: (10 16.5"): 32 points per ship, 6 months
L20alpha: (12 16.5"): 32 points per ship, 6 months
Einheit class (14 16.5"): 40 points per ship, 6 months
Ziethen (9 16"/50): 32 points per ship, 6 months
Note: The turrets are being replaced only. No change to machinery, armor belt, armor deck and other main systems.

The way Steve and I come up with this is that superheavy shells generally result in a weight gain of 3-4000 tons. So we took that times 8, with 32 points being the lower limit we set.

Oh? Supposedly the research rules are in place from mid-1926. Also supposedly researching super-heavy shells takes 2 years to complete. So how exactly is Germany allowed super-heavy shells before oh mid 1928 or so?

[Thanas]

Easy. I started research on it in Q1 1925. I even invested IBPs in it, which I did not get back.

You can find the exact start in the tech agreement I made with the US, done in a story post, which gives me access to more than three years of design work they already did on the subject in OTL before it was abandoned due to WNT.

EDIT: Oh, and I also got this approved by the mods.

[Lascaris]

Easy. I started research on it in Q1 1925. I even invested IBPs in it, which I did not get back.

You can find the exact start in the tech agreement I made with the US, done in a story post, which gives me access to more than three years of design work they already did on the subject in OTL before it was abandoned due to WNT.

EDIT: Oh, and I also got this approved by the mods.

Right. First we are told there is no mechanism for that kind of research, before the establishment of the research rules, then someone is allowed as much. Ok TV guided bombs and cruise missiles it is then and the hell with it.

[Lascaris]

Oh come to think of that since when the Bayern class got 16in guns instead of 15?

[Steve]

Easy. I started research on it in Q1 1925. I even invested IBPs in it, which I did not get back.

You can find the exact start in the tech agreement I made with the US, done in a story post, which gives me access to more than three years of design work they already did on the subject in OTL before it was abandoned due to WNT.

EDIT: Oh, and I also got this approved by the mods.

Right. First we are told there is no mechanism for that kind of research, before the establishment of the research rules, then someone is allowed as much. Ok TV guided bombs and cruise missiles it is then and the hell with it.

From the start of the game people were permitted to put IBPs into research programs, with a vague idea that once they'd researched for so long with so many overall IBPs we'd give them a breakthrough/success. Then, later on, as part of patching of the haphazard rules I added the research slots and the prospect of putting definitive dates of completion for all projects.

If you don't like this, the door is over there. Don't let it hit you on the way out.

[Thanas]

Oh come to think of that since when the Bayern class got 16in guns instead of 15?

Since I posted my own version of the Bayern class in the ship design thread on December 21, 2009. That it is not the OTL Bayern class should have been clear since in every storypost I specifically used its 16", for example in this one, even way before the definite design was posted.

Heck, even the first version of the Bayern class posted in November had 16".


EDIT: That said, I think the US will have superheavy shells by now as well as any other nation which has access to US gun technology. And it is not like everybody and their cat does not already research SH shells anyway.

[Lonestar]

Right. First we are told there is no mechanism for that kind of research, before the establishment of the research rules, then someone is allowed as much. Ok TV guided bombs and cruise missiles it is then and the hell with it.

Everyone has had some kind of research going on before the actual "slot" system was made, in my case I have a continuous Chemical R&D program and a 105mm SPG before the slot system started. I've opt to continue to expend IBPs on general Chemical R&D, which covers both chemical weapons and synthetic fuel.

[Lascaris]

Easy. I started research on it in Q1 1925. I even invested IBPs in it, which I did not get back.

You can find the exact start in the tech agreement I made with the US, done in a story post, which gives me access to more than three years of design work they already did on the subject in OTL before it was abandoned due to WNT.

EDIT: Oh, and I also got this approved by the mods.

Right. First we are told there is no mechanism for that kind of research, before the establishment of the research rules, then someone is allowed as much. Ok TV guided bombs and cruise missiles it is then and the hell with it.

From the start of the game people were permitted to put IBPs into research programs, with a vague idea that once they'd researched for so long with so many overall IBPs we'd give them a breakthrough/success. Then, later on, as part of patching of the haphazard rules I added the research slots and the prospect of putting definitive dates of completion for all projects.

If you don't like this, the door is over there. Don't let it hit you on the way out.

Right. It was just me who somehow thought that for you to actually be able to do something it had to be in the rules. Ok.

[Steve]

Oh, I fully acknowledge the rules were screwed up and needed patching. That's why I'm working on a ruleset for another game (not to be SDNW as I suspect SDNW4, when/if it happens, will be modern age) with playtesting of mechanics and concepts so everything is covered.

[Thanas]

As a compromise, I am quite willing to give up the SH shell nation (AKA everyone gets sh shells) if I get to use my research slot for another technology instead.

Of course, refit costs should still apply to everybody, with the same limits etc.

Also, any response to my canal plan yet?

[Lascaris]

As a compromise, I am quite willing to give up the SH shell nation (AKA everyone gets sh shells) if I get to use my research slot for another technology instead.

Of course, refit costs should still apply to everybody, with the same limits etc.

Also, any response to my canal plan yet?

Can I counter-propose that we apply research rules from January 1925? Of course in that case it would be only fair for Thanas to get the industry points he had used researching the thing... and probably a bonus as well.

[Steve]

I believe I returned IBPs to people who wasted them? I'm sure I did it for Shinn. And technologies were considered as researched as of January 1925 or whenever someone started.

[Thanas]

Good, that means I still get the technology and my initial investment back. Thanks.

[Siege]

Hold on, that means I have 175 extra IBPs to spend? Hokay... I guess that means it's time to go shopping.

[Thanas]

^Did you get my last PM regarding the visit of Schenk to Berlin?

[Siege]

I did indeed, unfortunately I had some things to take care of first, but I'm working on a suitable follow-up.

[CmdrWilkens]

Since when did we have such a rule?

SML has existed since the game started, if you suddenly jumped you AD army to be 60% of your available manpower (per Army Focus) then you would be an SML 4 nation, it would be pretty damn hard to do though.

Erm yes I know of this rule. But no where last I checked was there any prohibitions against jumping from step to step.

Not to mention, in the context of the Naval Focus, jumping from 4 to 5 can be actually bloody easy, by building just 6 50,000 tonne battleships.

Yeah but you also have to build the slipways and since you only start with 4 50kt slipways this means you would have to build 4 50kts (taking 3 years), build two 40-55kt slipways (2 years) then build 2 more 50 kts (taking 3 more years after the slipways are done). So its a 5 years process to do it that way (and damned expensive). I've essentially done this (built 2 more 40-55kts, built 4 55-70kts, built 4 55kt ships and dozens of smaller 10kt< ships) but its taken the commitment of close to 70% of my available IBPs over a 3.5 year time frame.

In other words jumping from NF4 to NF5 entails spending a lot of points in a lot of categories and waiting a damn long time for results. Hell I'd still be at least a year away if I didn't rush order a crapload of escort warships during the Panamanian War.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I believe I returned IBPs to people who wasted them? I'm sure I did it for Shinn. And technologies were considered as researched as of January 1925 or whenever someone started.

Erm ... does that mean I get to shave off time on the research? Because I planned on superheavy shells, radar, and many other things, just by slamming down a huge number of IBPs per quarter. I allocated 400 over IBPs in 2 years no less.

[Steve]

You can consider all researching to have been started in the quarter when you first listed the IBP expenditures.

As for the IBPs you spent, just find some stuff that over so many quarters costs 400 IBPs and add it to your next queues using a special expenditure list.

[Thanas]

I believe I returned IBPs to people who wasted them? I'm sure I did it for Shinn. And technologies were considered as researched as of January 1925 or whenever someone started.

Erm ... does that mean I get to shave off time on the research? Because I planned on superheavy shells, radar, and many other things, just by slamming down a huge number of IBPs per quarter. I allocated 400 over IBPs in 2 years no less.

I thought you already got a huge surplus...wasn't that the money from the research projects?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I believe I returned IBPs to people who wasted them? I'm sure I did it for Shinn. And technologies were considered as researched as of January 1925 or whenever someone started.

Erm ... does that mean I get to shave off time on the research? Because I planned on superheavy shells, radar, and many other things, just by slamming down a huge number of IBPs per quarter. I allocated 400 over IBPs in 2 years no less.

I thought you already got a huge surplus...wasn't that the money from the research projects?

Well yes. The only thing was that I was told by Steve to restart the time counter for the research.

[loomer]

I have too many IBPs. This should not be an issue but somehow it is.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have too many IBPs. This should not be an issue but somehow it is.

You can start by repaying your debts.

[loomer]

I could, but I think it's only fair there will be no repayments until the war is over.

Which, being as its me and Shep, will be in approximately several centuries.

[Lonestar]

I have too many IBPs. This should not be an issue but somehow it is.

Build a giant Statue of Lord Fairfax as thanks for the Chemical protection kits and training.