SDNWorld Redux - Casting Call & Planning

[Mr Bean]

Last go around between Zor, Stas and I handle the mod duties, however none of us were active, and there was the issue of being in the game as well as moderating it.

I'll see what I can write up tonight on a guide for secret projects.

*Edit, something along the lines of

1. Plan your secret project(Make a post), you can be highly vauge but you need to attact a code-name to the project you'll stick with to the big reveal.

2. Fund your secret project(Make a post) Feel free to hide it in something
else, for example building a Mole Mind-control ray put announce it as "Heath and Wellness program for Endanger species" but at some very high amount

3. Develop, and test your program, name-dropping your code-name in here is important. You don't have to detail what your doing just reveal the details of your test, for example a bio-weapon program would feature weaponisation tests, not a test of how deadly your viruses are. While a nuke test features mysterious earthquakes and the like.

4. Deploy your secret program, at this point you need to lay out what your program does if not how, the "leaked" scorecard briefing is a good example of this

5. Going public, now your program is ready for the prime time

So a good secret program should be a total of five to eight posts depending on how much time you spend on step 3.

[Raj Ahten]

Mr. Bean, your guidelines are good at letting people know you are actually building something secret, they have one flaw. They don't let a project pass the bullshit test, as no one will know what a project is truly all about until it is revealed. I'd prefer some way to have the feasibility of a project pass muster before deployment. Otherwise we may get some sort of wanktastic system deployed that would realistically never function or not function given the amount of resources or development time put into it. Perhaps this would be something for the mods to do?

[Mr Bean]

That's in step 4, you have to lay out what your program does and how. And that's where people can call you on bullshit (To high an energy budget, material science not yet advanced enough to support it)


No secret program is going to devolp nothing after all, but if you try to build in secret a cannon that can throw projectiles 5,000 miles or something otherwise nutty after passing the BS detector your final project might not work as well as expected, rarely will it not work "at all"

Keep in mind this model is based off developing something already done or planned to be done in the real world.

Further note, Large scale programs have leaks, there is no way to initiate a massive industrial undertaking without people noticing even if your country is a closed book. Saddamstain's claimed 8000+ missile battaries come to mind, no way you can build that many telephone pole sided object and hide them without leaks getting out, even if you shoot every foreigner who sets foot on land if you do any kind of trade or don't possess cloud cover 24/7 they will be noted sooner or later.

[Shroom Man 777]

So says the man who put a net of killsats into orbit to cow down even the mad Nukistanis

But I agree to this, mang.

[Raj Ahten]

Thank you for the clarification on that.

On a seperate issue just say no to kill sats!

[Mr Bean]

So says the man who put a net of killsats into orbit to cow down even the mad Nukistanis

But I agree to this, mang.

Which is why I spent a full day writting up the technicl papers for how such a thing could be done, I made over three dozen posts leaking scorecard updates, and multiple people question why I was building 76 "Internet" satellites when two or three GPS height ones would do as well.

Then we had questions on yield, which I answered to everyone's satisfactions. Trust me, getting in on Sheppard's side and simply building, nukes, nukes and more nukes So help me oh Mighty Bomb, oh Holy Bomb would have been much easier than getting the targeting information alloft for a multiple KKV system.

One thing people failed to remember is how damn expensive my system was for the twin advantages of detectability and being effectively unstoppable.

[Raj Ahten]

So says the man who put a net of killsats into orbit to cow down even the mad Nukistanis

But I agree to this, mang.

Which is why I spent a full day writting up the technicl papers for how such a thing could be done, I made over three dozen posts leaking scorecard updates, and multiple people question why I was building 76 "Internet" satellites when two or three GPS height ones would do as well.

Then we had questions on yield, which I answered to everyone's satisfactions. Trust me, getting in on Sheppard's side and simply building, nukes, nukes and more nukes So help me oh Mighty Bomb, oh Holy Bomb would have been much easier than getting the targeting information alloft for a multiple KKV system.

One thing people failed to remember is how damn expensive my system was for the twin advantages of detectability and being effectively unstoppable.

I was one of the main detractors of your system. The main problems I had with it was always its secrecy of development and the sheer speed of development. The whole thing was up and running in just a few short years from a start of absolutely nothing being in space and zero launch infrastructure at the start of the game. (Unless people started with such things in the beginning. Did they? I came in a after a couple of years so I am not sure.) While such a system is certainly possible, I'm of the opinion that building the infrastructure to do it (including training enough researchers) would take decades. If the US, with all our space investment woke up tomorrow and decided to make building such a system as a priority I doubt it would take less than ten years to get such an array of satellites as you had in orbit up.

This brings up a point. If we want to use a point based system, perhaps having R&D capabilities for different fields can be part of the system? This would be so people know you have a shitload of aerospace engineers capable of building death sats, super subs, nuke planes or what ever. Or we could roll specialists in with the infrastructure needed, so that if you purchase a big ass launch complex or a top of the line armaments industry, you get the specialist designers to go along with it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Or we could roll specialists in with the infrastructure needed, so that if you purchase a big ass launch complex or a top of the line armaments industry, you get the specialist designers to go along with it.

This will save us from enough number-crunching headaches to be worth while. It is still a game, mang.

[Siege]

No matter how many rules we implement there'll always be some way to cheat the system and come out with an unfeasibly ridiculous gun. At some point, you just have to trust people to have common sense, EG if you're a duchy you don't expect to win the space race, and if you're playing as a militant third world hole in the ground, don't expect to take on an alliance of superpowers and come out on top.

I've got no problem with special project development rates that are somewhat accelerated from the real world. I doubt many of us have the patience to wait 20-odd game-years for their first F-22 test flight, so accelerated build rates are a given anyway. As long as people don't act like total munchkins and stick to the outline Bean provided we should be fine.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Erm what's so secret about entertainment for the masses and PAVE THE WORLD!!!

[Raj Ahten]

Well I guess when we have Shroombo and such running around I can deal with fast developement times

[DarthShady]

So has anyone worked out a proposition for the new system?

We need to make a decision about the smaller countries.

Goddamn it I want to start making my OOB and map.

And Stas will you place me next to you and Fingolfin on the map?

[MKSheppard]

Shepistan Map. Please note how well it fits with the old dominion map

[Lonestar]

Hum, perhaps I should add a sort of East Shepistan (aka Bangladesh) situation where the Old Dominion defeated Shepistan in a war 30 years ago, and imposed a partition plan...

A history of Old Dominion/Shepistan relations: 1960-Present

1962: Surveyor Incident
Since the departure of the Raj, the subcontinent remained divided between Shepistan and the Old Dominion(given such a name due to it's loyalty to the Crown). Shepistan was the larger and more powerful of the two, although it had to struggle to control East Shepistan, and the Old Dominion's entry into the MESS did much to ensure it's security against Shepistan.

On August 12th 1962, the Old Dominion AGI Surveyor was operating off the Northwest coast of West Shepistan, tracking a Shepistani naval exercise. At 1317 a Shepistani frigate opened fired on the Surveyor with both 5 inch guns. After shelling the Surveyor 7 times, the Shepistani Frigate departed the area.

Onboard the Surveyor fires and flooding raged out of control. The crew was forced to abandon ship, and only a handful were able to make it off the vessel(due to confirming the destruction of sensitive material) before it went underwater. The survivors(7 of them) were picked up by a passing Shinra freighter.

The Old Dominion military rapidly mobilized, as did the Shepistani military, and shots were exchanged across the disputed borders. The Shepistani government announced that the Surveyor had entered a live fire exercise, and yes it was very sad they got shot. After a 7 week standoff(during which airborne regiments from various MESS nations were flown in) Shepistan and the Old Dominion agreed on a phased demobilization.


Winter 1965-66: First Shepistani-Old Dominion War
Prelude to War
By October of 1965 the various MESS intelligence agencies had received indications that Shepistan was preparing for an invasion of the Old Dominion.

Tensions had been high, and artillery barrages were exchanged on an almost daily basis along the border. Hardliners had in recent years taken control of the Shep party, and loudly talked of "Cavalier slights!". Indeed, with gloom the Old Dominion leadership looked at the correlation of forces. And they weren't good.

Of the less than 2000 tanks in Dominion inventory, the most modern were the 300 Centurion tanks, followed by 570 AMX-13. The army had over 800 M4 Shermans, but only 430 were upgraded to "Super Sherman" standard. In fact, over 400 still had 75mm guns! Most of the APCs were M3 Halftracks.

The Shepistan army had recently finished a massive and thorough modernization program, with over 1500 M48 MBTs, and 200 M60 MBTs. There APCs consisted of M113s, BTR-50s, and BTR-60s. There sadly was no real comparison between the armies in terms of firepower on the ground(although during the war poor maintenance practices would "ground" over half of the AFVs).

The situation in the air was a little better. The ODAF had over 600 combat aircraft, the oldest and least capable being the F-104 starfighter. F-8 Crusaders and F-4 Phantoms(then entering service with the ODAF) rounding out the rest. Attack aircraft consisted of A-4s, Buccaneer S.2s, and A-7s. In addition, due to the fact that the ODN's sole large carrier was in drydock undergoing an extensive(and expensive!) modernization overhaul, the "homeless" 30 ODN Phantoms and 20 or so Buccaneer S.2s would be able to be put to use.

Shepistan had close to 900 combat aircraft, the vast majority being MiG-21s and MiG-19s.

A naval standpoint is where the OD had clear superiority, both qualitatively and quantitatively. Of the two belligerents, only the OD had aircraft carriers, the small 27,000 ton Victory and the larger Centurion which was unfortunately undergoing an overhaul to "phantomize" it. The ODN had over 50 escorts, most of then new or recently refurbished. 8 SSKs rounded out the force.

The Shepistani navy, on the other hand, had 30 surface combatants, none of them younger than 15 years old. It had had one SSK and 4 LPDs.

Most of the crossing points across the border would be blocked during the winter, with this in mind(and after conversing with MESS allies) the Old Dominion decided to launch a pre-emptive strike.

Operation Rattlesnake

Shepistani LPD Frederick underway during a peacetime exercise


Victory preparing the airstrikes associated with OPERATION RATTLESNAKE

On December 3rd the ODAF and ODN launched over 150 warplanes in one sortie, attacking 8 Shepistani airbases(7 in West Shepistan, 1 in East Shepistan)and destroying 200warplanes on the ground.

Off the coast of East Shepistan the Victory attacked the naval base located in East Shepistan, sinking the Shepistani LPD Frederick, then in the middle of offloading a Naval Infantry battalion. Follow on airstrikes destroyed marine and aviation fuel containers, as well as two minesweepers and inflicted damage to a frigate. The Victory taskforce would effectively blockade East Shepistan for the war's duration.

A second ODAF sortie of 80warplanes in the evening destroyed another 92 Shepistani aircraft, still on the ground. Due to the lack of challenge from the SAF, the Dominion JCS correctly assumed that there was disorder in the Shepistani chain of command, and proceeded to bomb command and control targets, exasperating the problem.

It wasn't until the afternoon of the 5th that SAF fighters began to challenge ODAF planes, and the quality of the SAF pilots proved inferior, on average, to the ODAF pilots.

With air superiority secured, airstrikes began to hit bridges, powerplants,and fuel depots, whenever possible near populated areas. The intent was to galvanize the Shepistani leadership into launching a land offensive before spring, forcing the invading force to enter thought the few routes cleared of snow and ice.

It worked.

Land campaign
The Shepistani 1st Army entered Rogers Pass on 12 December, brushing aside the pickets and guards. On the Dominion side they crashed into the XII Corps. In a three day battle XII Corps held off the onslaught, destroying almost 200 M48 MBTs at the loss of 12 Centurions and 22 AMX-13s. But little by little, the flood of Shepistani armor and infantry pushed the XXII Corps back, and the Dominion forces retreated 15 miles to Wythe Ridge.

There the XII Corps commander used the superior terrain to once again block the 1st Army advance. Progress began to be measured in meters. Even worse, MESS airborne regiments had begun to arrive in theater, bolstering the Dominion forces. Farther North at Lynchburg, the 13th Shinra Infantry(air assault) threwback a probing attack.

By the 20th of December the Shepistani advance had virtually ceased, and the arrival of MESS air units had confirmed the denial of the air to Shepistan. Skirmishing continued until 3 January, when Shepistan agreed to return to the prewar borders.

Aftermath
The Shepistani government decided to end the conflict before a spring campaigning season for several reasons. The first was East Shepistan, isolated under the Dominion Blockade, was on the verge of revolution, and the Shepistani army units couldn't control both the populace and defend the borders.

The second was the rapidly movement in theater of MESS units. 3 armored divisions were on their way and would be in-country before the end of January. More would be arriving shortly there after, bringing fresh troops as their own forces withered from the disrupted supply and chain of command that the MESS control fo the skies entailed.

The third was the distinct lack of international sympathy and support for Shepistan, and in fact many nations outside of the MESS began an embargo against the country.

The borders returned to their pre-war location, and the blockade of East Shepistan was lifted. Internally, much of the officer corps was purged by the Shepistani Interior Ministry, and "The Great Shep" took over the reigns of party leadership. He vowed revenge. He would have it.


Dominion/MESS Deaths:
4,672

Shepistani Deaths:
8,965

[OOC: Man, took longer than I thought it would...will write the second war later)

[Coiler]

Nice battle description there, but isn't Skimmer's new nation also supposed to be bordering the Old Dominion?

[Lonestar]

I dunno, but it doesn't matter because (1) this isn't particularly official, it's something I did for fun and (2) Shep indicated it was a war between the Old Dominion and Shepistan.

[Sea Skimmer]

Nice battle description there, but isn't Skimmer's new nation also supposed to be bordering the Old Dominion?

No, my nation is tentatively going to be separated from Shepistan by a Afghanistan/Columbia like shitload no one can govern but which both of us want influence over for more strategic depth. My nation meanwhile is bogged down still trying to finish off annexing a state it conquered a while back. Unfortunately peoples use of US states for maps screws over my original map plan, which was to be based on the US north east with Virginia and West Virginia as the annexed area, so its going to be a little bit before I work out a new one.

[Shroom Man 777]

Will anyone be using the maps I provideds?

[Raj Ahten]

Will anyone be using the maps I provideds?

I want to, as a premade map will make mountain ranges and the like make more sense.

[Setzer]

Will anyone be using the maps I provideds?

I'll use it, if you can get me a bigger picture of the Adamas Islands, south of Osea.

[Mr Bean]

I was one of the main detractors of your system. The main problems I had with it was always its secrecy of development and the sheer speed of development. The whole thing was up and running in just a few short years from a start of absolutely nothing being in space and zero launch infrastructure at the start of the game. (Unless people started with such things in the beginning. Did they? I came in a after a couple of years so I am not sure.) While such a system is certainly possible, I'm of the opinion that building the infrastructure to do it (including training enough researchers) would take decades. If the US, with all our space investment woke up tomorrow and decided to make building such a system as a priority I doubt it would take less than ten years to get such an array of satellites as you had in orbit up.

As well I remember, but as I pointed out at the time, a KKV system is dead simple, you need only something to take it into orbit, something to aim it, and something to send it back down again.

Simple materials science tells you that if your using steel, it needs to be under 5KPS and be very large if you want it to hit the ground. Titanium you can take that up to 10KPS but it still needs to be big. Tungstun you can take that to 31 KPS, and DU lets you put it all the way at 38 KPS for your top speed a solid spheriod object can survive re-entry at. The large the object the faster you can fling it to a point, and if you can shape it you can fling it still faster.

As far as your questioning, we already have all the parts in place in America, we already have KKV's, they are called ICBM. The nose cone is an off angle KKV that carries a nuke. You take that, remove the nuke and fill it with a solid object and you have an ineffective KKV but an accurate one that would work every time.

We also have steel penetrade bombs, same principle but they get dropped from a lower altidue. Trust me, as I said before, figuring out how to drop a steel(Or better Tungstun or DU) rod from orbit so it hits the ground....
To quote someone else
It's a kinda hard to miss the ground, even if your trying to hit miss it, you normally hit it anyway.

[Raj Ahten]

Mr. Bean, I agree that the system is simple in principle (but this is rocket science we are talking about here It can only be so simple.) Command and control, software, integration of the targeting system to the motive system, ground tracking and a host of other tasks are still complicated. Another point is that no one on Terrra Nova had any experience with building rockets before. It would likely take some time to build up the expertise to run such a large project as you had. This is also a field where even a small error is huge; just look at that Mars probe lost to that imperial/metric measurement screw up. And when you said every part of the weapon system was designed by a different team who didn't know what the final product was supposed to be, isimiliar problems would be likely. Then again, you never had to test it in war time, so we don't know if it would have truly functioned as advertised. It would have been a hell of a thing if the system didn't really work but everyone thought it did!

Besides, any further argument on my part is pretty much a moot point now anyway. The system was deployed in game and it seemed to serve its purpose of keeping the UAR or anyone else from fucking with you. My response such as it was my version of Project Treadstone, which could be considered of dubious workability in some people’s eyes.

If anyone deploys such a system in this next go around, we can expect such technology to be invested in by everybody, even small nations. It provides just too much of a good first strike option. Nuclear subs could be an interesting counter though. Conceivably they could stay hidden and launch their payloads before satellites could get them. If I were big enough, I would be putting down major money on a sub force second to none. My holy grail to work towards and likely never reach (as it is probably impossible) would have been supercavitating submarines.

[phongn]

Command-and-control and systems integration with such a system would be a nightmare and would cost a fortune. You'd have to treat it like an SSBN.

[Raj Ahten]

On another note, we really need to decide what the duchies and other states get. The suggested range for duchies seems to run between $200-$900 billion. I think around $400 to $500 billion would be good. A while back I think it was Coyote who suggested breaking up your different national assets so you could spend them on different things via a percentage system. That seemed to be the simplest system to get some customization. No one yet has come up with a full point system.

[PeZook]

Because a full point system would be a nightmare to create

I say Duchies get 500 bil, on the level of Sweden, 800 bil for Principalities, 1.3 trillion for Kingdoms, 2.5 for Tsardoms and 5 for Imperiums. Military assets are fielded according to comparisons with real-world countries.

I'm not sure how customization would work, though. I'm inclined to use a percentage system as a guideline, splitting points between military, industry, social services and science, though of course keep it sane: 90% military, 1% industry, 1% science and 8% social will give you a huge military which is worthless, since you need industry to support it

On the topic of rules and regulations for secret projects, let's not get the game bogged down in details. There are people who are put off by number-crunching (hell, even me, the guy who created a huge and complicated spreadhseet just to calculate ISCA, has given up on number crunching for Selene ) but are great assets for the game due to their storytelling potential, like Shroom.