SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread VI

[doom3607]

My apologies for inactivity since I started. I'm trying to avoid succumbing to becoming a lemming, but I haven't had very much free time to write long story posts recently. I should be able to put something up in not too long, I hope.

Unless I was killed off without my knowledge. Then there'd also be an explanation for why I'm not on the map, other than simple oversight. May I be put on the map?

[Simon_Jester]

You may be put on the map after you have displayed sufficient activity to convince us all that your nation isn't an elaborate practical joke played by a handful of pranksters with a powerful hyperwave broadcast unit and too much time on their hands.

Not before.

[Mayabird]

The Refuge is in on the Inhumanism stuff because, well, crazy totalitarian space bears next door (though they are theologically sound, so that's good), plus they're holding a leash for the ravenous hordes which are also next door.

Speaking of crazy totalitarian space bears, awwwww. Happy family time!

[doom3607]

Well, that's a good way of keeping the universe clear of instant lemmings I suppose. I'll see what I can do.

[Siege]

Looking at the numbers, the "human" states all, or nearly all, have majority human populations, whose interstellar governments generally trace back to human colonists and thence to Earth and Nova Terra. There may be, often are, self-governing alien enclaves in those nations, but they're necessarily in the same strategic and political position as the US's Indian reservations. In theory they're autonomous, and that autonomy does give them jurisdictional freedom and a degree of self-rule, but in practice they are dependent on the larger nation they're embedded in.

Not being too familiar with the Indian reservations I decline to comment on that specifically, but I do want to add that the two Zigonian and the single Apexai state, apart from forming fully 1/3rd of the USS political landscape, are at least in theory entirely independent from the larger Sovereignty state. They have their own defense forces, their own laws and their own governments. They are involved in the Sovereignty only in asmuch as the Bragulans (Imperials, Collectors, Karlacks, etc.) present a uniform universal threat to everybody and if they don't work together they're screwed, but it's hardly like these states are theoretical concepts that humans can just walk over willy-nilly any time they wish. The Zigonians have weight-by-numbers going for them, and the Apexai have their techology: the Sovvies wouldn't even be able to function if the Apexai withheld their technological wizardry. So even sheer numbers aren't everything. You could say "well it's a human nation" because the President is a (post)human, but you might as well say "it's a non-human nation" because Olympic runs pretty much everything, or because the whole place only exists by the grace of Apexai tech, or whatever. My point is, then, that this 'human/inhuman' angle pretty much disregards the (massive) political, economical, etc. differences between humans and focuses exclusively on species which is, frankly, in the day and age of the game, a pretty irrelevant concept in many nations that it tries to classify.

[Simon_Jester]

Not being too familiar with the Indian reservations I decline to comment on that specifically, but I do want to add that the two Zigonian and the single Apexai state, apart from forming fully 1/3rd of the USS political landscape, are at least in theory entirely independent from the larger Sovereignty state. They have their own defense forces, their own laws and their own governments. They are involved in the Sovereignty only in asmuch as the Bragulans (Imperials, Collectors, Karlacks, etc.) present a uniform universal threat to everybody and if they don't work together they're screwed, but it's hardly like these states are theoretical concepts that humans can just walk over willy-nilly any time they wish.

To be sure- but even that is towards the very high end of status aliens can expect when incorporated into a human polity. At the more common low end, the aliens get increasingly dependent on humans' forebearance and superior numbers.

And this is not even counting the alien species that have been outright annihilated, or simply battered down into powerlessness, by humans. Often with good reason- our backstory writing has seen to that- but from the point of view of anyone in the galaxy not descended from the Twin homeworlds, it's got to be a bit alarming.

So even sheer numbers aren't everything. You could say "well it's a human nation" because the President is a (post)human, but you might as well say "it's a non-human nation" because Olympic runs pretty much everything, or because the whole place only exists by the grace of Apexai tech, or whatever. My point is, then, that this 'human/inhuman' angle pretty much disregards the (massive) political, economical, etc. differences between humans and focuses exclusively on species which is, frankly, in the day and age of the game, a pretty irrelevant concept in many nations that it tries to classify.

I'm not saying you're wrong as such, but you're thinking along classic majoritarian lines: "we're not really in charge, there just happen to be a lot of us, it's all right we're post-discrimination and not trying to screw you over."

Which is cold comfort to an alien empire that's worried that, in the event of a war with their nearest human neighbor, distant human powers will rally to the support of their fellow humans. Or aliens in the Outback who have to deal with Byzantine purges and the risk of getting caught in the crossfire between them and the Centralists- both of which are characteristically human-created political philosophies promoted by human states.

There's a power dynamic here, and it's very common for broad communities which see themselves as being on the wrong side of a power dynamic to turn round and band together against it, rather than sitting quietly and assuming it won't become a problem.

Thus, "inhumanism" becomes a political pretext by which the many nonhuman species in the game which feel strategically threatened or isolated by more numerous human neighbors* can establish some kind of mutual protective relationship to keep them from being isolated by the vast growth of human civilization in the past centuries.

*(or rulers, in cases like the Vinarans and possibly the Formics)

[Siege]

There's a power dynamic here, and it's very common for broad communities which see themselves as being on the wrong side of a power dynamic to turn round and band together against it, rather than sitting quietly and assuming it won't become a problem.

Sure, but by promoting 'inhumanism' as specifically anti-human, which is the angle pushed by the Bragulans, they're that more likely to bring about exactly that which they are afraid of. And they ought to actually be aware of this, because it's hardly a secret that if the Bragulans and Karlacks weren't as antagonistic as they are, the Imperium and the Sovereignty would be at each other's throats constantly. The only reason these two nations banded together is, shockingly, the alien threat next door.

So inhumanism is, in essence, developing an alien superbloc to counter an imaginary human superbloc, so there can never be a war. Except in reality what it does is push together nations classified as 'human' that wouldn't normally have come together because of massive cultural issues, so instead of decreasing the likelihood of war the chances of someone starting the shooting actually increases. Well darn if that don't that remind me of something? All we need now is our Gavrilo Princip to take a shot at Byzon or whomever and we're up shit creek.

Which, hey, is fine by me from a storywriting perspective, I'm just pointing out that the narrative the Bragulans are using to push this alliance is flawed and, well, stupid.

[Dark Hellion]

Except no matter how powerful the Bragulans are that doesn't actually remove the ideological differences between human nations, it just might make them more willing to stomach them if they are in the Bragulan warpath. And if they aren't those other human nations may see the Bragulans as a convenient proxy to get rid of an ideological enemy.

Why do you assume that all human nations are going to see Inhumanism as an immediate existential threat? Some may see it as a political stunt or may feel that the connections between the members are too tenuous to hold. Some may see it as a propaganda source to scaremonger up resources which they use to go to war with other human nations. Nations with large alien minorities may have to appease some aspects of inhumanism to keep social order.

The disparity of human factions within a galaxy that has such forces as the Collectors, the Karlacks, the Chamarrans and the Bragulans suggests that humanity isn't as willing to ally together as you suggest. Humanity seems to only barely be able to get along when the choice is between cooperation and death, and even then it is strained.

And also, you are pretending that the Bragulans are attempting to offer up some exceedingly practical alliance when in all likelihood this is just a excuse by the player factions that make it up to expand their influence over the other non-human races with emotional arguments and to rile up humanity. And then do nothing. So after a few months of high alert working together with factions they can't stand what do you think is going to start happening to these impromptu human allies? They'll be tearing out each others throats and the Bears will be laughing their way to the bank.

[Mayabird]

You guys are really overthinking this Inhumanism thing. The Bragulans are just doing it because they hate humans. They're willing to work with Karlacks, after all, just because they're not human. They were willing to trust the Refuge immediately right after we showed ourselves just because we're not human and our ambassador to them is flying awesomeness. I don't know why those other races are there but I've already explained the Refuge.

Also, remember, the actual alliance part is secret.

[Agent Sorchus]

Also so far the Inhumanist Union talks have been of a defensive nature, and are set in such a way that (as I see it) there aren't going to be any defensive declarations of war. Mostly it has come down to material and circumstantial aid.

[Shroom Man 777]

The best outcome the Bragulans are hoping for is that they produce some kind of superbloc warpac that can crush humanity's face forever, muhahahaha.

But more realistically, also knowing the fact that the non-human races are wildly different and some of them aren't actually genocidal totalitarian evildoers like the Brags and some of these nations might actually have pleasant relations with humanity, Bragule will be pretty fine if their goals fall short and the Inhumanist League becomes something more like a Non-Aligned Movement, except instead of being Non-Aligned they're just Non-Human.

If Bragule can't get the monomaniacal superbloc dedicated to crushing humanity, but instead just gets better diplomatic ties with other very varied non-human nations, fine. Glasnot and bragstroika and all. *shrugs*

Like they say, if you aim high but you fall short, at least you still land somewhere in the middle.

Of course the Bragulans are using "bragh, humanity, crushkill!" in their speechifyings. Because they're, ah, Bragulans.

There's a reason why they're not publicly declaring the Inhumanist League, after all. It's already been said, IC, that they don't want to galvanize the puny humans and make them overreact to stuff (and bring about the exact situation Siege said).



[Mostly though, OOC, I just wanted to mingle with the non-human nations more and see more of 'em in action to spicen up the game with more variety.]

EDIT:

Anyway, this is much ado over nothing since the inhumanist league has done precisely *nothing* in its total existence of a grand total of one dinner session with only a handful of guys actually engaging in the talking.

For all we know, the other aliens might just point at the Brags and laugh at how crazy they are before walking away.Who knows?

[Kartr_Kana]

After a long absence I have replied to the craziness ya'll have been propagating in my backyard. Our general response is "Ya'll have been dicks and we're tired of it so fuck off and stay away while we fix this mess".

In other news I am in a writingish mood the last couple days and I will write some more tomorrow afternoon and hopefully be able to finish or get close to finishing some posts that have been languishing on my computer for many months now. Including some very very old Hanson material that will be posted with a back date and will give me a reason to contact the Lost in March-April of 3401. Also this will give me a reason to do more GIJOE and talk to the 'birdies about theologically sound things.

[Kartr_Kana]

Force Lord that most recent post seems very out of character with the Centrality. Where's the posturing? The protests against the embargo, the claims that the centralists committing atrocities weren't actually centralists but violent mobs seeking to legitimize their actions. Statements to the effect that space is vast and no one has the right to stop ships and search them in hyperspace, etc.

At the first sign of another nation getting pissed, especially a nation that has a vastly different political structure and ideology, the Centrality is just going to roll over and say "we sowwy! we didn't mean it!"? Honestly this is going to hurt your credibility with any centralists. CENITERN will either be seen as a joke or the Centrality will see its self increasingly marginalized as the minor states look to each other for support rather than run the risk of getting thrown to the wolves by the Central State. At least that's my take on it.

Look FL I love it that you're so into this game and you've given us a lot to write about. However between this sudden reversal, some dialogue I caught in the OOC thread where you were asking to take back some actions, and your tendency to post one liners, I get the feeling that you're posting things without really thinking them through. Maybe instead of posting your latest story idea you could write it down on a piece of paper, mull it over and see if it's in character, a good idea, and can be expanded on. This way you wont come off as someone who posts the first thing that pops into his head.

[Force Lord]

The last post was done on the fly, so I see what you mean.

EDIT: To be more clear, I made that post just before I had to go to lunch, and so I was in a hurry. Hence the result.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think we did FL any favors in this regard by giving him enough rope to hang himself with in regards to the Outland Centralists earlier.

I feel that Force Lord has been a good contributor to the game, but he has one bad habit not yet fixed. He tends to push things a little too far, then pull too far back when someone reacts to the initial push- overcorrecting for the first slip by making a second one.

So in character his nation should have some good old-fashioned shoe-pounding "we will bury you" rhetoric going on... but out of character, we've given him every incentive to pull in his horns, meekly shuffle away from the Outlands, and try to put the whole mess behind him, for fear of getting mobbed by angry players.

On the one hand, I think we need to cut FL some slack and let him withdraw gracefully from the Outlands if he wants to; in light of the reverses he's suffered there and the reactions of the neighboring powers, this is totally logical for him as a player in a game that is supposed to be fun.

On the other hand, I think FL should think more carefully about in character versus out of character behavior. Strategic caution should be used before doing something risky, not afterwards. And it's disconcerting to have a nation which was just recently engaged in aggressive and provocative activity suddenly turn round and go "Eek! We didn't mean it! Everybody go turtle!"

Pursuant to this, I propose that Force Lord's most recent story post be left in a state of Retcon Limbo until such time as he can review and revise it with an eye to balancing his goals- on the one hand, the Centrality doesn't want to look like a pushover; on the other, he wants to withdraw from his commitment to rapid Centralist expansion in the Outlands for very logical IC and OOC reasons.

[Kartr_Kana]

Cool well you should still be able to edit it. And please don't think I'm disparaging you you've been contributing a lot more than I have, I just wanted to point out your post seemed out of character.


-Posted via 'droid-

[Simon_Jester]

[reads revised version of FL's post]

Ah, now that's more like it.

Also, it would appear that Kierger has been contaminated by the Strakanoff line of clonetroops, or some such.

[Kartr_Kana]

Great post FL that's much more like I expected and personally I feel that it struck the right amount of tension between our two nations. As time goes on we can let things start to thaw out, but I'm thinking not until the beginning of 3402 at the soonest. Also I loved this:

...Regarding the recent Nova Atlantean actions, he "was concerned with such recklessness, such pettiness, all because Byzantium crashed the party in the recent naval review. Turns out Posthumans can also be dicks. Who knew?"

Who knew?

White Haven (can I call you whitey? ) I'll wait until you actually poke at Balcora before responding. I do have a short post in mind to give an idea of what's going on at Balcora that I'll try and write this afternoon.

[White Haven]

Yeah, I've got some more planned to flesh out O'Leary's team before they arrive. If they arrive, I suppose.

[Force Lord]

[reads revised version of FL's post]

Ah, now that's more like it.

Also, it would appear that Kierger has been contaminated by the Strakanoff line of clonetroops, or some such.

Kierger probably saw Strakanoffs in action and decided to imitate their attitude.

EDIT: WARNING! SNEAK PEEK!
Spoiler

"Say what?!

Kierger had known that Sasha was a little... bad in the head. He knew of the stunts the MEH had pulled, how they requested in official diplomatic messages ESP-capable prisioners for freaking experimentation, how they wanted help in a blatant land-grab of Ork territory. Kierger had only just heard back in the Centrality about rumblings within the Ork communities, how they were increasingly attacking MEH ships and even territory. The MEH had ignored one of the cardinal rules for dealing with the Orks: Do Not Piss Them Off. That was bad enough.

But now, Sasha had just told him something that made him realize that, no matter how powerful she was, no matter how she claimed to have the ability to warp space and time, no matter how many people in the MEH worshipped her, she was, simply put, dumb as shit.

[White Haven]

Sorry for the multipost, I was at work for most of it, so each one was posted from a different computer. Two customer systems, then mine at home.

[Force Lord]

It's here! At long last! Read, worms!

[Simon_Jester]

Oh God. Poor, poor Kierger.

[RogueIce]

This June, it's gonna be On like Donkey Kong.

[Tanasinn]

Sexually assaulting a foreign head of state is also a very poor way to make friends.