SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Coyote]

Poor Dutch. Don't destroy the delicious chocolate factories!

Edit: Dutch Jews may decide to take their chances with the Yishuv. We'll take both of them.

[TimothyC]

Do note: if the escaping ships of the Kenyan squadron cannot reach the Western African colonies in one go (which it would appear they cannot), they will refuel in South Africa if they are allowed to do so. If they are not, they will attempt to reach Angola to refuel there. If they cannot reach Angola or are not allowed to refuel there either, they will hole up in a South African harbour there or surrender to the South African (or Angolan) government. If that for some reason cannot be done they will scuttle their ships and head for the shoreline anyway. They are under strict instructions not surrender to the Germans, or to the French, or the Spanish, or the Grand Dominion, or Cascadia, under any circumstances whatsoever.

PS: Yes, that's right. No less than five imperial powers are making a grab for Union territories. You vultures!

As Steve says, Being neutral, you can pull into South African ports to refuel, and you have 24 hours to do so. If you stay longer, the ships and crew will be intered for the duration of the hostilities. The fact that you are Dutch is a plus for your case, while being a socialist is a minus.

[Ryan Thunder]

BTW Ryan I was assigning random numbers to your armies since I didn't have any more specific data than the 16th being spread between N Colombia, NE Venezuela, and Panama. Since you are designating the 180th as occupying Panama proper I'm going to bluntly state that those would be the troops I over-ran with the 102nd being the unit with 1 Corps in Panama and 1 corps on its way in. When we rolled it was based on 3 of your 6 available corps being in Panama so I'm changing the designation of the units attacked.

I Corps would've been at the canal. So if you overran anything it'd be the II Corps which would be in that region in the absence of a full Army or additional Corps to take its place or reinforce it respectively.

And frankly I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if you simply overran a force that size given what you deployed, even if they had the home advantage, a position favourable to the defender and a disproportionately high ratio of artillery to infantry (all of which they did have.) Can we agree on that?

By the way, I hate to bring this up only now, but can your cruiser squadron outgun ten cruiser submarines, ten Valiente-class monitors, and five Vindicador-class cruisers, by any chance? Because that's the opposition they would be facing to make a landing at Coloncito.

[CmdrWilkens]

BTW Ryan I was assigning random numbers to your armies since I didn't have any more specific data than the 16th being spread between N Colombia, NE Venezuela, and Panama. Since you are designating the 180th as occupying Panama proper I'm going to bluntly state that those would be the troops I over-ran with the 102nd being the unit with 1 Corps in Panama and 1 corps on its way in. When we rolled it was based on 3 of your 6 available corps being in Panama so I'm changing the designation of the units attacked.

I Corps would've been at the canal. So if you overran anything it'd be the II Corps which would be in that region in the absence of a full Army or additional Corps to take its place or reinforce it respectively.

And frankly I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if you simply overran a force that size given what you deployed, even if they had the home advantage, a position favourable to the defender and a disproportionately high ratio of artillery to infantry (all of which they did have.) Can we agree on that?

By the way, I hate to bring this up only now, but can your cruiser squadron outgun ten cruiser submarines, ten Valiente-class monitors, and five Vindicador-class cruisers, by any chance? Because that's the opposition they would be facing to make a landing at Coloncito.

The Cruiser and Pacific Fleets (both in the area) have between them:

Three ships with 4x 11" and 14x 6.7"
Three ships with 4x 9.4" and 12x 7.5"
Four ship with 8x 12"and 12x 4"

I also have 20 kt in unspecified submarines (roughly 15 S-class analogues with 2 tenders/submarine cruisers). The seven ships sporting 11" and 12" guns have speed disadvantages but are much more heavily armored. That said my Pacific fleet is actually better provided with light ships to screen (23 light against 10 capital combatants) than my Caribbean/Atlantic Fleets.Now I could have easily brought down the full Baja squadron which would add 4x 12", 8x 9.4", and 12x 12" to the mix so long story less long: yes I outclass that deployment.

That having been said I think one of the rolls should be for how much damage you do inflict on those forces because they aren't heavy enough to totally avoid casualties if you press your attack (though you would probably suffer more heavily)


For the army forces what I calculated was that the Army permanently stationed in Panama suffered 50% casualties, if we say that I Corps is totally destroyed with elements absorbed in to II Corps that would about equal what I expected based on the rolls. II Corps would still hold both forts though Point Sherman would be heavily damaged the troops would likely be still available, other casualties if they oppossed the Punta Gorda landing would have been rolled up but could be rounded up from the forces escaping the destruction of I Corps. This would give you II Coprs 180th Army as 5-10% casualties and 90% effective and either the I or II Corps of 102nd army would be at Cuidad with 95-100% effectiveness. The other Corps of the 102nd would be most of the way there (as of D+5). The other Army (19th) would be roughly 3/4 of the way to Panama. All told that would give you roughly 2 Corps on line, 1 Corps in reserve and 2 Corps within a day or two of the front.

[Ryan Thunder]

BTW Ryan I was assigning random numbers to your armies since I didn't have any more specific data than the 16th being spread between N Colombia, NE Venezuela, and Panama. Since you are designating the 180th as occupying Panama proper I'm going to bluntly state that those would be the troops I over-ran with the 102nd being the unit with 1 Corps in Panama and 1 corps on its way in. When we rolled it was based on 3 of your 6 available corps being in Panama so I'm changing the designation of the units attacked.

I Corps would've been at the canal. So if you overran anything it'd be the II Corps which would be in that region in the absence of a full Army or additional Corps to take its place or reinforce it respectively.

And frankly I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if you simply overran a force that size given what you deployed, even if they had the home advantage, a position favourable to the defender and a disproportionately high ratio of artillery to infantry (all of which they did have.) Can we agree on that?

By the way, I hate to bring this up only now, but can your cruiser squadron outgun ten cruiser submarines, ten Valiente-class monitors, and five Vindicador-class cruisers, by any chance? Because that's the opposition they would be facing to make a landing at Coloncito.

The Cruiser and Pacific Fleets (both in the area) have between them:

Three ships with 4x 11" and 14x 6.7"
Three ships with 4x 9.4" and 12x 7.5"
Four ship with 8x 12"and 12x 4"

I also have 20 kt in unspecified submarines (roughly 15 S-class analogues with 2 tenders/submarine cruisers). The seven ships sporting 11" and 12" guns have speed disadvantages but are much more heavily armored. That said my Pacific fleet is actually better provided with light ships to screen (23 light against 10 capital combatants) than my Caribbean/Atlantic Fleets.Now I could have easily brought down the full Baja squadron which would add 4x 12", 8x 9.4", and 12x 12" to the mix so long story less long: yes I outclass that deployment.

And I'm afraid I'm going to have to call bullshit because this is just... well, absurdly one-sided. Something's off. Has to be.

That having been said I think one of the rolls should be for how much damage you do inflict on those forces because they aren't heavy enough to totally avoid casualties if you press your attack (though you would probably suffer more heavily)

For the army forces what I calculated was that the Army permanently stationed in Panama suffered 50% casualties, if we say that I Corps is totally destroyed with elements absorbed in to II Corps that would about equal what I expected based on the rolls.

Very well.

II Corps would still hold both forts though Point Sherman would be heavily damaged

Heavily damaged by what?

Did I not specifically state that the area surrounding my forts is effectively denied to any but the most absurdly large fleets, for all intents and purposes? I don't know what you'd have to do to get that, but I know it's possible for a not-outrageous investment, so that's what I have. Concrete is apparently a bitch to get through in this time period.

This would give you II Coprs 180th Army as 5-10% casualties and 90% effective and either the I or II Corps of 102nd army would be at Cuidad with 95-100% effectiveness. The other Corps of the 102nd would be most of the way there (as of D+5). The other Army (19th) would be roughly 3/4 of the way to Panama. All told that would give you roughly 2 Corps on line, 1 Corps in reserve and 2 Corps within a day or two of the front.

As inoffensively as possible, I don't think you properly accounted for the speed of their rail transport there. At 25 km/h for 8 hours a day the trains cover 200 km. If I map out a believable rail network (that has a bunch of detours to get around the mountains instead of trying to plow straight through them) I can bring five armies into the Canal zone within a couple days.

Oh, and you can't use my rail network because its wide gauge, btw.

[loomer]

For reference, since everyone seems to be placing a great deal of importance on rail gauges and using that to thwart easy invasion plans, Afghanistan utilizes 1,520mm - Russian Gauge, essentially, since that'd be half of where they got the expertise for it. This is now set in stone, and should I ever abruptly announce to Russia/other regional powers utilizing the Russian Gauge, remind me of this.

[Beowulf]

This would give you II Coprs 180th Army as 5-10% casualties and 90% effective and either the I or II Corps of 102nd army would be at Cuidad with 95-100% effectiveness. The other Corps of the 102nd would be most of the way there (as of D+5). The other Army (19th) would be roughly 3/4 of the way to Panama. All told that would give you roughly 2 Corps on line, 1 Corps in reserve and 2 Corps within a day or two of the front.

As inoffensively as possible, I don't think you properly accounted for the speed of their rail transport there. At 25 km/h for 8 hours a day the trains cover 200 km. If I map out a believable rail network (that has a bunch of detours to get around the mountains instead of trying to plow straight through them) I can bring five armies into the Canal zone within a couple days.

Oh, and you can't use my rail network because its wide gauge, btw.

1 Division/rail line/day max. If I'm going to be held to that, so is everyone else. It's unlikely that you have more than two rail lines to the canal zone. Actually, it's unlikely that you have any that actually reach to the Canal Zone, because of the Darien Gap. Even today, it's a region where there's simply no roads across, let alone railroads. Building such will be a long and expensive process... at least, if you want it to last for any length of time. If you're concerned only about it lasting long enough for a campaign, it's a bit of a different story.

Also, what gauge do you use? Russian would be a bit odd because they wouldn't be your socialist brothers until 1917, and you'd probably be well on your way to building the majority of your railroads by then. Other choices are Irish, Iberian, and Indian. (Oh, and technically, the term is broad gauge, not wide gauge).

[CmdrWilkens]

The Cruiser and Pacific Fleets (both in the area) have between them:

Three ships with 4x 11" and 14x 6.7"
Three ships with 4x 9.4" and 12x 7.5"
Four ship with 8x 12"and 12x 4"

I also have 20 kt in unspecified submarines (roughly 15 S-class analogues with 2 tenders/submarine cruisers). The seven ships sporting 11" and 12" guns have speed disadvantages but are much more heavily armored. That said my Pacific fleet is actually better provided with light ships to screen (23 light against 10 capital combatants) than my Caribbean/Atlantic Fleets.Now I could have easily brought down the full Baja squadron which would add 4x 12", 8x 9.4", and 12x 12" to the mix so long story less long: yes I outclass that deployment.

And I'm afraid I'm going to have to call bullshit because this is just... well, absurdly one-sided. Something's off. Has to be.

See My OrBat for the Pacific Fllet, Baja Fleet (optional) and Pacific Heavy Cruiser Squadron. I've got 6 pre-dreads, 4 dreads (1909 re-engined in 1921), and 2 early dreads.

II Corps would still hold both forts though Point Sherman would be heavily damaged

Heavily damaged by what?

Did I not specifically state that the area surrounding my forts is effectively denied to any but the most absurdly large fleets, for all intents and purposes? I don't know what you'd have to do to get that, but I know it's possible for a not-outrageous investment, so that's what I have. Concrete is apparently a bitch to get through in this time period.

So lets start with the aforementioned OrBat. Now I knew you had forts but I didn't know how tough they were so I've got my entire Gulf and Caribbean Fleet on hand and adjustable as needed. All told this would be:
Six BBs with 12x 420 mm main guns
Four BCs with 9x 420 mm main guns
Eight BBs with 12x 380 mm main guns
Four BCs with 8x 380 mm main guns

Against this you have six total 450mm main guns and eight 350mm main guns...and concrete. Now the guns I'm using throw a 2,400lb AP round. Roughly speaking the 16"/50 throwing a 2,100 lb AP projectile should penetrate about 4m of reinforced concrete while the WWII era 16/50 with 2,700 lb AP round could penetrate 6m (all ratings at 25,000 yards). With weight and gun characteristics somewhere in between (larger bore, similar muzzle velocity, split the difference weight) each of my 420mm rounds should be able to penetrate somewhere in the neighborhood of 5m of reinforced concrete or roughly 16ft at a range 25,000 yards.

This would give you II Coprs 180th Army as 5-10% casualties and 90% effective and either the I or II Corps of 102nd army would be at Cuidad with 95-100% effectiveness. The other Corps of the 102nd would be most of the way there (as of D+5). The other Army (19th) would be roughly 3/4 of the way to Panama. All told that would give you roughly 2 Corps on line, 1 Corps in reserve and 2 Corps within a day or two of the front.

As inoffensively as possible, I don't think you properly accounted for the speed of their rail transport there. At 25 km/h for 8 hours a day the trains cover 200 km. If I map out a believable rail network (that has a bunch of detours to get around the mountains instead of trying to plow straight through them) I can bring five armies into the Canal zone within a couple days.

Oh, and you can't use my rail network because its wide gauge, btw.

I can capture rolling stock (which I likely did) and use that to shuttle forces from cross-over stations at the Costa Rican border). My initial assault was so successful by land that your forces wouldn't have time while retreating to tear up tracks or to put cars out of service. Also the reason I shortchanged you (or appear to have done so) is that its gonna take at least 1 day of staging and loading before your units will move out and then the terrain of southern Panama dictates that at best you could have maybe two lines double or triple tracked more likely doubled since you are wide gauge. I'd find it believable you could get 1 Corps/day starting on D+2 but not much more than that.

[TimothyC]

Oh, and you can't use my rail network because its wide gauge, btw.

By a Mod vote of 2-0-1 this is hereby overturned, unless you give a very, very, very good reason.

[Ryan Thunder]

1 Division/rail line/day max. If I'm going to be held to that, so is everyone else.

Great! Excellent news! This means I don't have to worry about Panama any more because it won't fucking belong to me any more at this rate!

It's unlikely that you have more than two rail lines to the canal zone. Actually, it's unlikely that you have any that actually reach to the Canal Zone, because of the Darien Gap. Even today, it's a region where there's simply no roads across, let alone railroads. Building such will be a long and expensive process... at least, if you want it to last for any length of time. If you're concerned only about it lasting long enough for a campaign, it's a bit of a different story.

With all due respect, fuck off. It's not like I don't have enough trouble dealing with this thanks to the absurd disparity in naval power already.

My infrastructure rating is a 5. Yes, we bridged the Darien Gap with a railroad and devastated the local ecosystem.

Also, what gauge do you use? Russian would be a bit odd because they wouldn't be your socialist brothers until 1917, and you'd probably be well on your way to building the majority of your railroads by then. Other choices are Irish, Iberian, and Indian.

I'm Industry 5, which means I set my own arbitrary standard at 1000 mm.

(Oh, and technically, the term is broad gauge, not wide gauge).

Yeah, you're right, I just forgot.

Oh, and you can't use my rail network because its wide gauge, btw.

By a Mod vote of 2-0-1 this is hereby overturned, unless you give a very, very, very good reason.

I beg your pardon?

<snip>

So, in other words, this whole thing is totally stacked in your favour and I'm utterly fucking screwed no matter what I do because my navy is apparently worth fuck all and my forts aren't, well, fortified. Christ, this is aggravating...

That's it. I'm going to bed, before I blow a gasket or something. G'night, ye fuckers.

[TimothyC]

For the record, 60% of South African Rail is double gauge (both Broad and Cape), the rest is all Cape gauge.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, Ryan, if you really want to be spiteful, you could go obliterate the locks at the canal... after all, you don't want someone else to profit from your own investment....

And seriously, quit your yapping for not thinking through your OOB well enough.

[CmdrWilkens]

Oh, and you can't use my rail network because its wide gauge, btw.

By a Mod vote of 2-0-1 this is hereby overturned, unless you give a very, very, very good reason.

I have no objection to his broad gauge network, its his call BUT I should have at least partial use via captured equipment. Unless he had virtually no trade with Costa Rica (improbable at best) there should be switching yards already at the border which would be intact as well as plenty of rolling stock abandoned in the pell mell retreat to Cuidad. So I should be able to use the network at reduced capacity with a delay to switch units at the border. All told I figure this would add +1 Day to all movements against capturing a standard gauge network.

[Ryan Thunder]

Well, Ryan, if you really want to be spiteful, you could go obliterate the locks at the canal... after all, you don't want someone else to profit from your own investment....

Yeah, then I have to build it all over again and Mexico gets exactly what they wanted anyway.

It's pretty cool, actually. He sits on his (IC) fat ass and gets what he came for, and there's fuck all I can do about it. I can't move forces into the region fast enough to retake it, and because he has the magical battlefleet of doom my doom forts are naturally useless. It's like I'm fucking Miratia again for all the influence I have over what's going on.

Then again, at least I had no illusions that I could actually defend myself without looking like a jackass or breaking rules, in that case.

And seriously, quit your yapping for not thinking through your OOB well enough.

You're an imbecile. All that thought I put into my defenses is for shit because I fucked up one fucking boat design. You hear me? ONE FUCKING BOAT.

I have no objection to his broad gauge network, its his call BUT I should have at least partial use via captured equipment.

Well, I can't argue against that. You rolled well enough for it, I suppose.

[CmdrWilkens]

Quick thought, Panama has always been a tough keep for Colombia, you have a narrow front of access, a massively under gunned navy, and at best parity of armed forces IF all things were equal. Were I to try and push in to Colombia proper I'd be at the end of a supply line just begging to be cut off and destroyed.

That aside:

1) Formulate a response
2) Submit it to the mods
3) Roll your dice
4) I will then respond to your counter-attack

and we can get on with this war.

[Ryan Thunder]

Quick thought, Panama has always been a tough keep for Colombia

Which is why I plastered it with sprawling fortifications. Which turned out to be useless because any tit with a navy can just pretend my entire naval defense system doesn't exist! Cool, huh?

Were I to try and push in to Colombia proper I'd be at the end of a supply line just begging to be cut off and destroyed.

That aside:

1) Formulate a response
2) Submit it to the mods
3) Roll your dice
4) I will then respond to your counter-attack

and we can get on with this war.

Done and done. Waiting on 3.

[Steve]

Problem with forts is they're kinda stationary. That said, they do prevent rapid capture if key locations. The only problem is that the Mexican Army broke your frontier much faster than anticipated.

[Norseman]

To be perfectly honest a properly prepared coastal fort would be all but immune to battleship guns, they are small targets that can be far more heavily armoured than any battleship. Look at how many weeks and months it took the Nazis to reduce the Soviet forts at Sevastopol! That was with heavy siege mortars being fired from land, where they knew pretty well where the enemy positions were. Heck look at the landings on Normandie, despite massive battleship and aerial bombardment, far more intense than *anything* that the Mexicans could do the German defences were still able to turn it into a blood bath.

Secondamphibious attacks are damned hard and very easy to defeat, even if they have ludicrous amounts of battleship support and the forts are manned by subpar troops. Gallipolli anyone?

Third... a single track railway may be limited to a division a day, however a double track railway should be able to move far more. I wouldn't be surprised at 4 divisions a day and they could bring them in from far away. To be blunt the big problem with railways is not how many kilometers or miles they can move a day, what takes time is getting the troops onto the trains and then getting them off the trains. Once they are on the trains the trains can move at 30 miles to 50 miles on average an hour for at least a day or two straight. Look at the massive troop movements in Europe during WWI, do you really think they would be possible at one division a day?

Fourth there is another short term way of massively, and I mean massively, increasing the capacity of a railway, one that you've built yourself that is. Instead of using one railway track to bring stuff in and one to take them out, use *both* tracks to move supplies and troops in. Then simply roll the locomotives and rolling stock off the railway tracks and bring in another one. Obviously you can't do this for very long, but a country with infrastructure 5 should be able to keep it up for a week or two, at least for something as important as Panama.

So the Columbian position at Panama is not as bad as it might seem.

[loomer]

Mobilization timetable is posted. Its not precise, and won't be until I can get the main computer working again (...again...) due to lack of availability of my maps, but it should be roughly realistic.

[Dark Hellion]

I would like to repeat something I said earlier, which is that the game should be decided by smart political and strategic decisions, not knowledge of esoteria and the ability to nitpick. An NF4 battleship should be an NF4 battleship and someone's ability or inability to use springsharp should not be decisive in a battle. I mean, why the fuck did we spend the points in NF if it wasn't to increase the competency of our nations shipbuilders?

This is why I am so reluctant to make an OoB, because I have this feeling that sometime down the road someone is going to point out how the ship I thought looked good on wikipedia has a problem with methane explosions because of poorly designed shitter pipes. And when that happens I am out.

I am not a historian, I want to have a fleet that is "Batteships, Destroyers, Cruisers, etc." and an army that is composed of "dudes, jungle fighters, artillery, mechanized dudes." I don't want to have to know that my guys are armed with xxx 5.928383838 mm 6 & and half shot rifle or bullshit like that. I want dudes that are AF 3 strength dudes, that fight with AF 3 competency and thus match up pretty well with other AF 3 dudes and not worry about how Bob decided to buy some LMG that is better than mine because he has a Jane's arms book and I googled mine.

[Steve]

Your points are very logical, Veg, though in the case of the amphibs they succeeded. Wilkens rolled freaking 8s and 10s on them.

[Norade]

Does my naval mobilization count for the purpose of getting the war time IC boost?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have a question, what is the recommended configuration for a typical fort to withstand heavy attack?

Your points are very logical, Veg, though in the case of the amphibs they succeeded. Wilkens rolled freaking 8s and 10s on them.

What are the losses like? Hell, the Thais managed to beat off the British and the Japanese on some beaches, or at least gave them hell.

[CmdrWilkens]

To be perfectly honest a properly prepared coastal fort would be all but immune to battleship guns, they are small targets that can be far more heavily armoured than any battleship. Look at how many weeks and months it took the Nazis to reduce the Soviet forts at Sevastopol! That was with heavy siege mortars being fired from land, where they knew pretty well where the enemy positions were. Heck look at the landings on Normandie, despite massive battleship and aerial bombardment, far more intense than *anything* that the Mexicans could do the German defences were still able to turn it into a blood bath.

Secondamphibious attacks are damned hard and very easy to defeat, even if they have ludicrous amounts of battleship support and the forts are manned by subpar troops. Gallipolli anyone?

Gallipoli is probably the worst example for this particular case though. In that circumstance the combined fleet knocked out virtually every fixed emplacement...it was the combination of mobile (key word mobile) guns and the mining of a very narrow straight that kept the initial rush from penetrating. Thereafter the defenders swarmed to the landing sites with an equal number (equal being key here) of forces.

Now given that he has 1 division in place against the 6 I was landing its not surprising I could outflank his defenders if they even bothered to defend this bit of shoreline...which is the next point. I didn't attack his fort, I attacked 20mi away from his fort where he would have a hellish time identifying targets behind even the most basic smoke layer. Hell given the terrain he'd have a tough time in bright blue skies with the sun just past noon and just a touch of cloud to keep the glare down.


Now we could also get to your point about having heavier armor BUT there is a breaking point as has been pointed out to me at which effectiveness will start to decline rapidly. Without a large navy in need of ever thicker panels of high grade armor Ryan would either have to spend exorbitant sums or suffer armor quality drop off. In other words, as I've been told many times in the design thread, the technology just isn't there for truly high quality plates above a certain size.

[Lonestar]

You're an imbecile. All that thought I put into my defenses is for shit because I fucked up one fucking boat design. You hear me? ONE FUCKING BOAT.

"For want of a nail..."