SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread II

Raj Ahten · Post by **Raj Ahten** » 2008-09-01 11:13pm

On Beowulf's aircraft that have just been redeployed; Good luck using them for anything for the next couple of weeks. He certainly could have flown them in country but how the hell are they going to operate? How did the spare parts, munitions and technicians get in country? These probably could be flown in but with an entire airborne division and its kit being flown in transport is going to be a bitch. I'd expect sorting out the logistical situation would take quite some time.

If it sounds like I am sore about the situation, it’s because I am. Tian Jiao took a very bad course of action in Indhopal's eyes. It's not that they asked Tian Xia for help, that is totally understandable and any nation that didn’t ask people friendly to them to help in such dire straights would be a fool. The problem is that they became a colony again and did so with out telling anyone in the FTO (as far as I know). You see, those in the FTO have bad memories from the colonial days and do not wish to repeat them. The whole point of the alliance is to keep the great powers out! Then Tian Jiao goes and invites Tian Xia in to stay forever, practically rejoining the motherland. Of course I’m pissed about it. That puts the great powers and their political games right on my doorstep and their aircraft within easy striking distance of Indhopal.

Master_Baerne · Post by **Master_Baerne** » 2008-09-01 11:19pm

Czechmate wrote:Yeah, but the FTO is an alliance of tiny duchies and, like, one principality. put together, you -might- equal one Tsardom. and 'protectorate' is the wrong term. Tian Jiao is now an autonomous province of the Empire of Tian Xia and as such is essentially sovereign Tian Xia territory administered by a colonial government.

You're right, it's not a protectorate. It's total submission to the imperialist dogs.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-01 11:23pm

Master_Baerne wrote:
Czechmate wrote:Yeah, but the FTO is an alliance of tiny duchies and, like, one principality. put together, you -might- equal one Tsardom. and 'protectorate' is the wrong term. Tian Jiao is now an autonomous province of the Empire of Tian Xia and as such is essentially sovereign Tian Xia territory administered by a colonial government.
You're right, it's not a protectorate. It's total submission to the imperialist dogs.

Was that country ever given de jure independence or given de facto independence?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2008-09-01 11:24pm

Raj Ahten wrote:That puts the great powers and their political games right on my doorstep and their aircraft within easy striking distance of Indhopal.

Speaking of games, I think it's time for the IRT to talk to their ideological brethren in San Dorado.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2008-09-01 11:28pm

*points to 5 wings of transports, as well as the tankers*
They aren't staying so they're not counted as "deployed". Tankers can carry people as well as fuel, including at the same time. I have more transports than some countries have planes. Hell, I have more trainers than some countries have planes.

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-01 11:37pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Master_Baerne wrote:
Czechmate wrote:Yeah, but the FTO is an alliance of tiny duchies and, like, one principality. put together, you -might- equal one Tsardom. and 'protectorate' is the wrong term. Tian Jiao is now an autonomous province of the Empire of Tian Xia and as such is essentially sovereign Tian Xia territory administered by a colonial government.
You're right, it's not a protectorate. It's total submission to the imperialist dogs.
Was that country ever given de jure independence or given de facto independence?

Tian Jiao had de facto independence, since the Emperor was unable to ever spare forces to subdue them and the Westchester family effectively controlled the armored forces stationed there.

They've now given up the pretense of rebellion and returned to proper behavior.

EDIT:

phongn wrote:Speaking of games, I think it's time for the IRT to talk to their ideological brethren in San Dorado.

It's merger o'clock!

Raj Ahten · Post by **Raj Ahten** » 2008-09-01 11:39pm

Beowulf wrote:*points to 5 wings of transports, as well as the tankers*
They aren't staying so they're not counted as "deployed". Tankers can carry people as well as fuel, including at the same time. I have more transports than some countries have planes. Hell, I have more trainers than some countries have planes.

Right. So for example, how long would it take the US air force to move that many planes and get them ready for an extended air campaign? Your transport fleet is in the same general ballpark. Do we have any precedent we can look at

? I am genuinely curious here. We should also consider you are doing all this into a theatre where you don’t yet have air superiority.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-09-01 11:41pm

Raj Ahten wrote:
Beowulf wrote:*points to 5 wings of transports, as well as the tankers*
They aren't staying so they're not counted as "deployed". Tankers can carry people as well as fuel, including at the same time. I have more transports than some countries have planes. Hell, I have more trainers than some countries have planes.
Right. So for example, how long would it take the US air force to move that many planes and get them ready for an extended air campaign? Your transport fleet is in the same general ballpark. Do we have any precedent we can look at ? I am genuinely curious here. We should also consider you are doing all this into a theatre where you don’t yet have air superiority.

I don't see why it would take long. C-5 and C-17 transports are fairly large, and if fuel is needed, bring a few fuel tankers. Nothing to it. Otherwise, aircraft carriers would have a problem carting around whole fighter wings.

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-01 11:42pm

The TJAF has air superiority over Tian Jiao proper. Their Flanker-H units are vastly superior to the poorly trained MiG-21 and -23 regiments of the People's Air Force. The PAF has sorta stopped trying to sieze air superiority, and is instead trying to bull through with sheer numbers on the ground, which they may succeed at doing.

EDIT: The arrival of TXAF aircraft simply cements air superiority over Tian Jiao proper.

At sea, they're apparently not allowed to do anything, since the CSR has decided any naval engagement in the region means they're under attack.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2008-09-02 12:18am

Well, there's the CSG providing cover for the incoming aircraft, as well as the fact that all the aircraft are armed in the ferry configuration. So that should be enough to ensure air superiority over the zone when combined with the native Tian Jiao assets.

As for the actual deployment, the 366th wing was designed to be the model of the air expeditionary wing concept. It contained about 60 combat aircraft as well as 7 tankers. With airlift support to carry the heavy equipment, it was supposed to be able to deploy anywhere in the world in 3 stages. The first stage would involve the most movement of combat aircraft, with the later stages bring extra aircraft as well as the remaining support elements. I don't recall how much air lift was required to move the wing, but almost certainly not as much as you think.

I'm almost certainly going to have to be lifting in munitions, but there's a reason for giant airlift capacity.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2008-09-02 12:41am

Beowulf wrote:. With airlift support to carry the heavy equipment, it was supposed to be able to deploy anywhere in the world in 3 stages. The first stage would involve the most movement of combat aircraft, with the later stages bring extra aircraft as well as the remaining support elements. I don't recall how much air lift was required to move the wing, but almost certainly not as much as you think.

I'm almost certainly going to have to be lifting in munitions, but there's a reason for giant airlift capacity.

320 C-141 loads to deploy the 366th to an equipped base that has fuel, basic iron and cluster bomb munitions, support buildings and basic ground equipment like fuel trucks you can already use. Bare bones operations would more then double transport equipments, but I don’t think y our facing bare bone conditions unless I’m mistaken. Also keep in mind that while heavier transport planes can carry more weight and reduce the number of sorties, they usually no not have proportionally greater floor space for stuff, and a lot of the equipment an air wing needs is bulky rather then heavy.

I like low budget semi modified sea lift ships myself, its ever so cheap and it works just fine against zero real opposition when unloading for up to a week is acceptable.

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-02 12:50am

His aircraft are being deployed to extant airbases in various parts of Tian Jiao, if it helps. Proper permanent ones.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2008-09-02 01:18am

Alright, OOB mods are now illicit and the final map is up!

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-02 02:31am

Heh...I find the fact some FTO members practically demand external politics of their neighbors conform to their vision of Frequesque hilarious.

You are risking to destroy good relations with your neighbors over what is, essentially, not only a minor issue, but also one you can't do anything about. Or do you expect Tian Jiao to rebel against their colonial masters so that you can be satisfied about there being no foreign power involvement whatsoever?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-09-02 03:25am

Just a quick assessment of PRSF forces I made to see what they could do.

Heheh.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-02 03:27am

Stas, 4 batallions are a brigade (reinforced brigade by WARPAC standards), not a division. Unless there's some translation problems going on here

Siege · Post by **Siege** » 2008-09-02 03:28am

Note: I myself don't mind the involvement of Tian Xia forces, as long as they, you know, leave when the crisis is over.

phongn wrote:Speaking of games, I think it's time for the IRT to talk to their ideological brethren in San Dorado.

Talk is good. I like talk. Don't expect us to become your colony, though

.

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-02 03:36am

Really cool, Stas. That actually gives me a big thing to mark off what I've killed.

Siege · Post by **Siege** » 2008-09-02 03:39am

Czechmate wrote:Really cool, Stas. That actually gives me a big thing to mark off what I've killed.

Can't you have torpedoed that damned carrier? 'Cause that would save us quite a headache

.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-09-02 03:41am

WARPAC division:

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-02 03:41am

I can't. My SSIs probably can't sneak past Stas's ships, and even if they tried, he'd consider it an offensive act if they got busted.

EDIT: stas, your host failed.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-02 03:44am

Stas Bush wrote:WARPAC division:

Yeah, see? Four brigades, eight support batallions, HQ plus arty. Way more than mere four batallions (unless you meant 'brigades' on that schematic?)

Czechmate · Post by **Czechmate** » 2008-09-02 03:45am

no, he couldn't have meant four brigades. a Type 071 and two Rogovs couldn't lift that.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2008-09-02 05:33am

Boo. I hate you all

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-09-02 05:36am

phongn wrote:Boo. I hate you all

Uh, what? Huh?