SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[MKSheppard]

Producing such machines in reality, in my view, is almost as costly as a 5th gen fighter.

Well, if you're willing to accept a much lower RCS level reduction, your job gets a lot easier; as you don't have to be as precise.

[K. A. Pital]

Even the projected costs of MFi are 70 million, and with overruns, that's likely to spoil into 80 million. Just as I said, the Raptor was "calculated" to cost 70 million as well, but that balooned later on. Considering the higher RCS (on the order of Typhoon, etc. - both have 1,5m hull only RCS) - some 4,24m loaded versus the 0,35m for the F-22, I didn't say it will baloon to all 120 million, but it might balloon to 80-85 million.

[Sea Skimmer]

Even the projected costs of MFi are 70 million, and with overruns, that's likely to spoil into 80 million. Just as I said, the Raptor was "calculated" to cost 70 million as well, but that balooned later on. Considering the higher RCS (on the order of Typhoon, etc. - both have 1,5m hull only RCS) - some 4,24m loaded versus the 0,35m for the F-22, I didn't say it will baloon to all 120 million, but it might balloon to 80-85 million.

F-22 tried to push technology in almost every direction. MiF had a very nice set of planned AL-41F variable cycle engines, but in most respects its just a very refined example of what Sukhoi and MiG were already doing. F-22 didn’t get the variable cycle F120 engine because it was juts too much added risk on top of stealth. Instead they just got a very hot burning turbofan.

Typhoon development cost around half as much as F-22, despite being an international program involving a much larger number of weapons and systems. I’m figuring around 90 million per JF-90 Violet Lightning placed on the runway ready to fly and fight.

Since the passing of emergnacy OD-Shepistan war preparedness spending bills Japanistan is purchasing 188 per year for its own use, with the latest models equipped with AESA radars obtained through the IRT and a duel band argon cooled IRST of local development. Maximum range is in excess of 80km under optimal high altitude conditions. High rate production is expensive upfront, but ultimately makes for lower overall costs.

In defensive operations the aircraft will ultimately be upgrade to cooperative engagement capability in conjunction with Brilliant Blossom Universal Defence SAM Complex, as well as legacy fighter and radar systems.

[K. A. Pital]

The final and most advanced nuclear submarine in the CSR inventory, the Pr. 885 Yasen, of which 16 are fielded and another 14 are planned while the 20 Akula-II Mod will retire [I'll also make pics of SSKs later somehow I've gotten to love this pixel-scale military stuff ]

It's probably the most versatile boat you could think of. The torpedo layout is standard mission stock for CSR submarines. The VLS armament variants differ from boat to boat. Yasens in CVBG-assigned SUBRONs carry Kh-101. Yasens in other submarine formations are stocked with either 24 Yakhonts or 32 Kh-35 Urans, but mostly with the former, since the Kh-35 underwater launch from VLS 1x4 missile cages is not yet properly worked out - I'm investing in that right now.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Stas, we ought to do some exercises simulating attacking either a CVBG, or a land attack on a heavily defended target some time this year or the start of the next. Then reverse positions to see how both sides will react to an attack.

[K. A. Pital]

Sure thing. Let's say situation 1 is your CVBG playing the "enemy" part and rapidly advancing through the Eastern Ocean towards Dalniy. Situation 2 will be my CVBG coming from the East likewise. Opposing forces constitute coastal DESRONs, SUBRONs and patrol-missile-rocket boat flotillas... and we'll have some mock battles to evaluate the performance of weapons

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Stas, we ought to do some exercises simulating attacking either a CVBG, or a land attack on a heavily defended target some time this year or the start of the next. Then reverse positions to see how both sides will react to an attack.

Let's do it some time the start of the year, so that some of the new weapon systems can come online and we can test how things will work out.

[PeZook]

Damn real life. Damn it to hell!

Uh, anyways, sorry for not being very active as of late. PeZookia will, of course, accept the Vinnish delegation.

[Steve]

Damn real life. Damn it to hell!

Uh, anyways, sorry for not being very active as of late. PeZookia will, of course, accept the Vinnish delegation.

So, when are you and Veg going to wrap up the students plot? I imagine that the Star of Sweethaven mutiny is going to make some waves soon.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

So, Shep's just going to turn all of his surplus fighters into glorified cruise missiles? What a waste. If Alaska won't buy, then the Duchy of Langley will.

[Norseman]

I anyone selling upgrade kits to Soviet style fighters? 'cause I'd be interested in buying those.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I anyone selling upgrade kits to Soviet style fighters? 'cause I'd be interested in buying those.

Technically some of us do, but there is this issue of you being a pariah state that makes me hesitate to sell...

I think Skimmer and phongn will be happy to sell....

[K. A. Pital]

Langley will be sponsored to buy out Shepistan's excess weaponry (unbeknowest to Shepistan, of course), so feel free to buy lots of his weapons Shinn. For our sponsorship, we will only demand some of them to use in constant target practice for our SAM batteries
Also, the provision did not allow for loopholes to retain existing fighters as "cruise missiles" as far as I understand. I await Lonestar's inspectors to oversee a thorough destruction of the Shepistani fighter arsenal.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Langley will be sponsored to buy out Shepistan's excess weaponry (unbeknowest to Shepistan, of course), so feel free to buy lots of his weapons Shinn. For our sponsorship, we will only demand some of them to use in constant target practice for our SAM batteries
Also, the provision did not allow for loopholes to retain existing fighters as "cruise missiles" as far as I understand. I await Lonestar's inspectors to oversee a thorough destruction of the Shepistani fighter arsenal.

Heh... Yeah, technically, 80% of OD's arsenal might also refer to the cruise missile arsenal....

Side note: Just so anyone thinks the ETC gun I just tested is pure BS, I am basing the gun design off the XM-291 120/140mm hybrid gun. There are some studies that show a 140mm ETC gun is perfectly feasible, but given I still have a tonne of 120mm rounds around which I don't want to waste all of it, I am using a hybrid system.

As for the rocket assisted projectile, it has no guidance, and somewhat similar to the S. African rocket assisted projectiles and the X-Rod round, only that it is propelling a DU round.

EDIT:... Hmm.. Looks like I should speed along the next generation of tank design that I was thinking of working on... a miniature Baneblade maybe? Hmm...

[Shroom Man 777]

Shep, you WHORE!

Those are MY GIANT DEATH DIGGING MACHINES!

Fuck you! If you want to dig mass graves, pay ME!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Shep, you WHORE!

Those are MY GIANT DEATH DIGGING MACHINES!

Fuck you! If you want to dig mass graves, pay ME!

Dude.. even in the real world, there are a few companies that make that sort of giant bucket wheel excavator. It's just that demand is so low they are largely only made when it is required.

[K. A. Pital]

SSKs ahoy! From my oldest and most proven to the newest generation:
636MV Varshavianka (Vodomet) - essentially a combination of the 636M "Improved Kilo" project boats capable of using Klub-S, with the pumpjet engine of Pr. 877V Kilo-class submarine "Alrosa" installed.

Active in the CSN: 30

Incidentally, I'm giving the former P.R.S.F.-ians six of my 636MV Improved Pumpjet Kilos, and their old Kilos are for sale at a pathetic price of $100 million. Hear that, arms buyers?

677 Lada [no Western reporting name exists yet]

Active in the CSN: 20

The replacement for my Kilos which I started producing around 1997. It's a modern composite-material boat with extremely quiet engines. According to TSKB Rubin producer, it is several times quieter than Kilo, and the "Lada" is currently quieter than even a pumpjet Kilo boat. The propeller is extremely advanced shape and moves at very slow rate. Boasts larger and better acoustics than any version of "Kilo".

950 Amur [no Western reporting name exists yet]

Active in the CSN: zero, planned: 50, laid up: 2, eta 2010

The replacement vessel for both Lada and Kilo, and the only SSK which the C.S.R. will be producing in the next years. Exports, unless to S.N.C. nations, are banned for the decade. A smaller boat, with quietness levels and acoustics and electronics suite same as that of Lada. Smaller range, autonomy and battle complement of torpedoes is offset by the installation of 10 VLS tubes in the boat. The ultimate CSR XXI century boat.

It reflects the CSR doctrine of increasing submarine and ship versatility, with the ability to launch Klub-S ASUW, AShM and Cruise missiles from the 10 VLS tubes, against any sea and land targets alike, in addition to the possible various Klub-S complement in torpedo tubes.

[P.S. A new dedicated anti-ship SSGN project to replace the Oscar-II Mod is also in the works but no boats will get laid up until next year. The boat is based on the 881 Ametist/955 Borei submarine, like it would've been in reality if the USSR carried on:

The Borei is said to be even quieter than Seawolf by it's producers. This is a SSGN version of Borei (contemplated in the USSR as Pr.881 Merkuriy], and it's no less quiet. Speed penalties obviously arise from using pumpjets, etc, but it's 32-missile complement pays up for it. Dual Granit launchers a-la Oscar-II are paired perpendicular to hull, under 45 degree inclination]

P.P.S. For arms buyers: if you are considering between U-212 class and Kilo class, take my offer. And I will tell you why.

June 2003, Baltic Maneuvers of the Russian Navy with Polish observers. "Peter the Great" and BDK "Alexander Levchenko" failed to detect a Kilo-class 877 with advanced towed hydroacoustic stations before it launched torpedoes. After it launched 4 torpedoes and successfully sunk "Peter the Great", the hydroacoustics of both ships found the vessel. June 2006, BALTOPS-2006. "Neustrashimy"-class frigate, with far more primitive and small hydroacoustic station, detected a non-classified acoustic target, and pursued it until it was confirmed as a U-212 class boat. The Kilo isn't called "black hole" for nothing.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

[P.S. A new dedicated anti-ship SSGN project to replace the Oscar-II Mod is also in the works but no boats will get laid up until next year. The boat is based on the 881 Ametist/955 Borei submarine, like it would've been in reality if the USSR carried on]

I might actually be interested in that project....

By the way, Stas, why is the Amur smaller than the Lada?

[Siege]

Am I just being paranoid or is Shep building a "civilian" airfleet that could be transformed into a military force with minimal effort?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Am I just being paranoid or is Shep building a "civilian" airfleet that could be transformed into a military force with minimal effort?

Well, he has to get around with the treaty limits somehow. And with Shep and Skimmer, you don't just get paranoid. You go back to your garage and cart out the biggest gun you can think of.

But technically, a Tu-22 for a passenger jet isn't a bad idea. I think Tupolev did make some passenger jet variants for some of its high speed bombers, like the Tu-144.

[K. A. Pital]

Amur-950, the one with VLS, is smaller than Lada. Lada's equivalent boat is Amur pr.1650.

Also, check out the update in earlier post for my new SSGN project.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Amur-950, the one with VLS, is smaller than Lada. Lada's equivalent boat is Amur pr.1650.

Also, check out the update in earlier post for my new SSGN project.

Heh.. I would rather go with the bigger boat. I've been thinking of either stopping my production of Type 212As at the 32nd boat. The new laying of keels just started mid year so I still have time to make changes midway. Like Type 212B for added quietness.

Yeah, the new SSGN looks interesting. I'm thinking of getting a few.

EDIT: And I was spurred to do another round of upgrades again for my Type 212A... this is really burning the budget.

[TimothyC]

Gee Thanks Shep. I was going to pay the same amount as originally planed. but buy less. I was still going to take the F-106s and F-101s off your hands, but no, you have to go and screw me.

[K. A. Pital]

Heh.. I would rather go with the bigger boat.

In that case you can use use the Lada or Improved Pumpjet Kilo (actually I'll be retiring some of the 636VM). Both are more quiet than Type 212A and carry more ammunition. In fact, the Amur despite it's size carries more ammunition than Type 212 even for it's torpedo tubes (16 torpedoes), and it has 10 VLS capable of salvo launches in addition to 4 missile tubes. I guess it's a question of what you want from your SSK. If you want a costal machine that would hunt down small submarines, kill unwanted intruders and possibly shoot down enemy planes skimming the border, etc. the Type 212 is a good call, but if you want a boat with some strategic capability, the Lada or Amur are your choice. Without the ability to launch cruise missiles, the SSK is reduced to the role of coastal hunter.

Also, indeed size matters. The smaller a boat, the greater it's possible survivability vs. torpedoes - however, at the same time, the greater are it's hydrodynamic noises. The Pumpjet Kilo is the largest extreme quiet-boat in modern designs.

Consider that the Type 212 is 56 m long - whereas the Amur-950 is 59 m long, Lada 67 and Kilo 76,2. That's also one of the answers why the Neustrashimy was able to track a Type 212, smaller size.

[TimothyC]

Hey Stas, do you have any Beriev A-40s for sale?